I know this is an older post, but I am very interested to hear what you ended up doing with this whole precalc/calc thing. Did you end up combining LoF Trig and MUS precalc? We were talking about doing this as a possibility, with idea that both LoF and MUS could continue into calculus. But she needs to start in the next few weeks, so I am VERY interested in hearing your thoughts on this. Thanks!!

Not to get off the topic of the original question, but.... Angie, so what are you guys using for precalc/stats/calc? (I'm sure I've seen this from other threads, but I don't remember!) Thx!

I finally got the geometry review taken care of, but still have finalize plans for Alg2 for one and Precalculus for the other, and possibly calc or stats beyond that. Since we can't stick with what they've been doing and have to start a new math curriculum, I've been asking for opinions, reading reviews, comparing TOCs from books, and more. This is my attempt at a neutral summary of options I see for self-study, trying to assess usability, rigor, etc. I would REALLY appreciate feedback to see if my understanding seems more or less accurate. Some of my own questions are in italics. OK, self-study options: - Chalkdust: top-notch program, very thorough, rigorous, well-respected; DVD portion is pretty much required for self-study because the book on it's own doesn't explain as well; DVD segments are 15-60m. Tends to be more expensive. - Foerster's: sounds top-notch, but from what I've read I don't think it will work well for self-study at the precalc/calc level w/o some kind of Math Without Borders DVD like there is for Foerster's the lower levels (and that is not available). - Lial's: well-suited for self-study with good explanations; DVTs useful at times, but somewhat optional and not really needed most of the time. DVT segments are 15-20m on average, when needed. Not quite as rigorous as Chalkdust, but still very solid, very thorough, good coverage of topics. Should strongly consider getting the graphing calculator supplement. - TT: user-friendly for self-study; not as rigorous in the breadth or depth of material covered compared to Chalkdust. I've heard that precalc steps it up a little, so maybe this is somewhat comparable to Lial's in this respect, at the precalc level?? Doesn't offer calculus, which is a negative for me because I don't want to switch again if DDs do calc. Not sure about graphing calculator use. - MUS: user-friendly for self-study; not as rigorous in the breadth or depth of material covered compared to Chalkdust. Topics that are covered tend to be well-understood by students. Somewhat comparable to Lial's and TT in this respect?? Not sure about graphing calculator use. Calculus now available, which they say should prepare a student for the CLEP test... but they make no claims about AP Calc and that's the route we would more likely pursue. I'm uncertain how different the AP and CLEP calc tests are. Maybe some supplementing with LoF, Lial's, or AoPS would help boost this program to a higher level?? - LoF: Could be stand alone, but most people would use it as a supplement, or supplement LoF with more problems from another text. Maybe Lial's would work well for this?? Math applications wrapped into an engaging story line. Written by a former high school and college math teacher. Author is accessible by email and phone for questions. Trig and beginning of Calc book would cover precalc topics. Does offer Calculus, Statistics, and Linear Algebra texts. - AoPS: very different approach to math, well-suited to "high-performing math students" (AoPS' words). Encourages creative thinking and problem solving. If using at this higher level, would probably need to supplement with more standard textbook problems for the sake of standardized testing. Online classes available; not sure how texts on their own would work for self-study though. Maybe good as a supplement to TT or MUS or LoF for the motivated student who wants more explanation offered by the other programs?? Do you think this is somewhat accurate? If anyone can help some of my italicized questions, that would be fabulous! Thank you!

My rising juniors really need help increasing speed and improving legibility in their handwriting. It doesn't look AWFUL, but it doesn't look anywhere near "mature" in terms of presentability. And timed essays? Ugh! Has anyone used Fix It Write or Teach Yourself Better Handwriting? When they were elementary age they had beautiful italic handwriting, but not now. I don't think they'd want a particular "style" they'd have to duplicate (like the Getty-Dubay adult italic book), but would like to improve upon a more individual style. Thoughts? Suggestions? Thanks so much! :)

These sites are terrific! I am so excited to pull out my book again thanks to this fantastic thread. Maybe it will go better with "round 2" of my children. The specific lesson plans provided in the links seem very promising. I made a simple drawing grid (5x5 squares; 2 sets on a page) years ago when my olders did DWC. It's very barebones and easy to do, but if anyone wants a copy, just PM or email me. It's not much, but I'm happy to share! :)

Me too!! lol Would love to hear if there are tips on safe Sharpie-usage! But I did use those big "strip" packs of thin Crayolas when my teens were little (with DWC), and that was good. I got each child their own set and that was definitely a good thing just to foster more awareness of proper care, and they only used them at set "art times." Still would get messy sometimes, but nothing too awful. ;)

Aack! What are you doing to me, Cheryl -- *another* option?! :banghead: Ah, but I do appreciate it. :tongue_smilie:

Thank you, to all! I am encouraged by hearing more about the ACT, too. I went ahead and got the TT Geometry for her. Although is really enjoying LoF Adv Alg, and I could see her sticking with it beyond, she is just sooo ready to be done with geometry after dealing with this other text for so long. So after much discussion together and comparing contents and samples and such, I think TT will be much easier for her to just jump into midstream -- she'll go through the earlier chapters faster for review and see if there are any sticky spots, then dig in and finish. I think she would really enjoy LoF, but right now she just needs to "get it over with" (not the best attitude, I know, but once in a while I guess that's just life). Again, thank you! :D

I just wanted to thank everyone for their helpful replies. My DD does really like LoF, but is concerned there are too few problems. I think we'll go ahead and have Lial's alongside, perhaps as a gauge, perhaps more as we see how it goes. But then I'm thinking if she does want to aspire to the Calc AP, maybe she should have a different text?? Ugh, always so much to consider, and I *do* have a tendency to endlessly research every curriculum decision... no doubt to a fault, at times. lol Anyway, thank you, ladies!

Love your DD's samples, Veronica -- very inspiring! So, you started DWC when she was 4? Also, as a tangent, where did you get those great frames for her work? Maybe they're just regular frames, but it looks so great because you gave her paper pre-cut to a size that would fit them?? I'm another who has the book on my shelf but never stuck with it. :( This thread has me rethinking.... Thank you, to all!

Wouldn't I need some kind of manual, though, if I've never used the program at all? Or maybe not?

Hi there -- For anyone familiar with the HWT program, how would it work to use the old HWT "Printing Teacher's Guide for My Printing Books Grade 1 and 2" with the new workbooks for 1st and 2nd grade? I've not used the program before, and honestly was never a huge fan of handwriting "programs" for my olders (now teens), but think this approach would really benefit my littles (4.5 and 6yo DDs, both of whom read very fluently, like to write words, sentences, stories, but have a few bad habits developed already as they just kind of do this on their own for fun). What do you think? Thanks!

Ah, yes, good point Jann. She was going to start on LoF Trig first (following Alg2 that she's just finished, but before the LoF Calc). I guess I was assuming that between the LoF Trig and the early chapters of LoF Calc, that would essentially serve as a pre-calc course. This is what is covered in the full Trig and Calc through LoF: LoF Trig Sines, Cosines and Tangents, Graphing, Significant Digits, Trig Functions of Any Angle, Trig Identities, Graphing a s inb(x + c), Radian Measurement, Conditional Trig Equations, Functions of Two Angles, Oblique Triangles, Inverse Trig Functions, Polar Coordinates, Polar Form of Complex Numbers, Preview of all of Calculus. LoF Calculus "two years of college calculus" [but maybe more like 2 semester??] Functions, Limits, Speed, Slope, Derivatives, Concavity, Trig, Related Rates, Curvature, Integrals, Area, Work, Centroids, Logs, Conics, Infinite Series, Solids of Revolution, Polar Coordinates, Hyperbolic Trig, Vectors, Partial Derivatives, Double Integrals, Vector Calculus, Differential Equations. Jann-- do you think that the Trig and early chapters of LoF Calc would be somewhat equivalent in terms of topics covered in a pre-calc course?

OK, these replies are both helpful -- thank you! Karin, do you have a preference/recommendation for a traditional text that your dd/you like? I thought about having her take tests from a more traditional text, and then using that to pinpoint trouble spots or missed areas. Do you think that would work?

Any math gurus have an opinion on this? I'm wondering if Life of Fred Calculus can be a stand alone calc course. My dd finished Alg2 through another publisher, which definitely included some trig (I've noticed that's not necessarily a given with Alg2). I didn't think of using LoF as a stand alone, but now am seriously considering it after seeing a couple of books in person. According to the website, LoF contains the following: LoF Trig Sines, Cosines and Tangents, Graphing, Significant Digits, Trig Functions of Any Angle, Trig Identities, Graphing a s inb(x + c), Radian Measurement, Conditional Trig Equations, Functions of Two Angles, Oblique Triangles, Inverse Trig Functions, Polar Coordinates, Polar Form of Complex Numbers, Preview of all of Calculus. LoF Calculus "two years of college calculus" [but maybe more like 2 semester??] Functions, Limits, Speed, Slope, Derivatives, Concavity, Trig, Related Rates, Curvature, Integrals, Area, Work, Centroids, Logs, Conics, Infinite Series, Solids of Revolution, Polar Coordinates, Hyperbolic Trig, Vectors, Partial Derivatives, Double Integrals, Vector Calculus, Differential Equations. I'm wondering if she started Trig now, then did Calc, all with LoF, do you think that would prepare her for a Calc AP exam (BC? or maybe AB). I've read a few old threads on the boards here and while there was some discussion, I couldn't find people who had actually done it. Thanks for any help!! :)

This is so encouraging, thank you! OC Mom, what wonderful news! Congrats to your daughter... and you! ;) What is the REA test-prep book you mentioned? GardenMom, did your two self-study for those, or were they taking online courses? They have more of a natural bent toward literature and writing, but I would consider almost any at this point. We are entering year 2 of world history, actually using an approved AP world history text, but it certainly hasn't been structured like an AP class. They read a chapter, do the online quizzes from the publisher (although they don't always do very well on those), they write a short essay response (2 paragraphs or so) on a couple of questions (one from the text, two from the short answer section of the publisher online). But honestly, I'm not reading the text so I'm not exactly a "guide" for this. They are also studying world religions at the same time and building a website about women's roles in religions, and then there are some supplemental readings they are doing as well. So while they are covering a lot of ground, I guess the AP thing kind of scares me because they are just doing this on their own. There isn't a lot of discussion. <sigh> I suppose I feel like I'm letting them down. Originally I thought maybe they could take the world history AP, but then I started hearing that it was one of of the harder tests, etc. I don't know. I guess I just feel like we're all on trial and if they don't do well it would be reflection on our homeschooling, etc. I've never been one to "teach to the test" and now I'm feeling really apprehensive. Sorry, I'm rambling!

FWIW, my dh is a high school physics teacher and loves the Conceptual Physics books (particularly for the less math-intense approach to physics). Also, if you had to cite your textbook, Conceptual Physics would likely be more recognizable to the college. If CP is what you're leaning toward anyway, it seems like the way to go! :)

I am kicking myself that my DDs didn't start AP testing already. In our area, when I tried asking about AP testing, I was told repeatedly that it was something you didn't even consider until Jr year, but mostly Sr. Even if they had just taken one test sophomore year, that would've been nice. So now mine are heading into Jr year and they really want to get kicking. (Wish I had found this board last year!) Does anyone have any experience with how doable it is to self-study for AP exams? Obviously, there are some study guides out there, but in a practical sense, what do you think? Any particular tests you know of that are more geared to that style of preparation? Thanks!

Just thought I'd add a plug for Spelling Wisdom from Simply Charlotte Mason. It's available in downloadable PDF format, or printed books. There are sample, etc. on the website. And they also offer versions for both American and British spelling.

We used Excellence in Literature (Lori posted on it above) last year and were very satisfied with it. We actually did a monthly book discussion group with some other high schoolers, but then some of the families also used the full guide for more in-depth lit work. The biggest thing *I* loved about it was that there was a paper due on each book, each month. An actual writing assignment, and my dd didn't have to wait on me to get going on it! lol (Best intentions and all that, but you know....) Anyway, if you have any specific questions on it, or on Teaching the Classics or Windows to the World, LMK. Actually, I don't think Lori mentioned Teaching the Classics: wonderful program that can be used at many grade levels and teaches you how to work with ANY lit, which is also very helpful. I've typically not been a fan of study guides for individual books as they so often seemed contrived, so I really liked Teaching the Classics.

Thank you SO much for your thoughts and encouragement. We don't own either LoF or TT, although we did just receive LoF AdvAlg and Trig with the HCs. But the ToC are online for both of those books. You know, I've never paid much attention to standardized tests, and we've always had this mindset of just "lifelong learning" and having a joy of learning, etc. But with those darn ACT/SATs looming only months away, it's sparked this bit of panic in me! lol Both my older DDs took the PLAN test (like a pre-ACT taken sophomore year), and it suggests they will do fairly well on the ACT, but math just gets these guys more than anything. And of course, a couple of colleges on their "short lists" are fairly competitive and say the avg ACT score is 28-30, plus there are scholarship considerations, etc. So I guess I'm just freaking out a bit. lol Thank you for calming me down. Breathe. Breathe. :coolgleamA:

I meant to make "doesn't matter" one of the poll options -- but I don't think I can edit a poll. :( Sorry about that. And yes, I know I just need to make a decision and move forward. Aargh!! :001_unsure:

OK, I am hesitant to even bring this up because I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here (what a terrible expression!), but my dd is asking me if Teaching Textbooks Geometry OR Life of Fred Geometry will better prepare her for the geometry math portion on the ACT/SAT. Does anyone know?? Does it even matter? Some of her friends have said things about the tests like "it was all geometry" -- but who knows what that really means in real terms. For those who have heard my math woes in the past week, this is the dd who is switching geometry math books halfway through because the old one is just deplorable for an independent learner. The thought of going through more theorems and postulates is NOT a happy thought for this girl, but she is prepared to stick it out. Of course, postulates and theorems are not on the ACT/SAT, as far as I know. She started last week on LoF Advanced Algebra (and is loving it!), and I think will also be using Lial's Alg2 (which we are still waiting to receive). But she still needs more time with Geometry. <sigh>

I am very appreciative of all of the comments here on this thread. Although there are several approaches mentioned, I have tried all of them at various times, with varying degrees of success. lol But somehow hearing someone else explain what they do seems different! I am going to work on creating a syllabus for one class first (then hopefully others), talk with my dh, and also my teens. They were just talking about how we need to "step it up" so this will go along nicely. Only TWO YEARS LEFT!! <gasp> I know I have not been as consistent with them since having more littles in the picture. I'm hoping the syllabus/consequences will help (although not cure) that situation. Thank you so much for all the comments!

I wish I had given more feedback (in a timely manner!) to my high schoolers on papers and projects. I wish I had always tried to look my kids "in the eye" more often when they start talking to me (instead of giving them only 1/2 or less of my attention because I'm working on something else). I wish I had spent far less cumulative time on the computer! 5 minutes here, 15 minutes there -- doesn't seem like much, but when I start adding it up for the total day. Yikes! I think I was a better mom, in some ways, before the Internet. I'm grateful to know there is hope for me! lol That from time to time I even surprise myself when one of my littles ask me to do something I really don't want to do (like painting -- ugh! it's a full body experience for them!), and I say YES! :D