Heather, You have a good head on your shoulders and you're making thoughtful choices. I believe it takes time to get to know HOD before you can judge what works and what doesn't. You will find your way with it and be able to judge what to add when the time is right. I affirm the decision to use Bigger although you should assess your son's skills closer to the time you plan to begin HOD (unless you jump ship to HOD earlier than planned). Bigger is a "more than meets the eye" program but you do want to place him via the placement chart. Don't decide NOW what guide he fits in if you don't plan to start that guide until 9 or 10 months from now. When we first started with Bigger I bucked under the guide because it was a different style than I was used to (we'd previously used MFW Adventures and loved it =) ). Only in retrospect was I able to see and appreciate the depth to the guide. Now, I'd use it "as written" and consider adding Rod & Staff spelling. I don't know if we'll be back with HOD (my youngest is using it) but time will tell. ;) It's a fine program and I can wholeheartedly recommend it.

I second Birchbark. In my experience, HOD is quite full and it's too much for the child (and the teaching Mom juggling many kiddos, subjects, etc.) to use a HOD guide and ADD to the language arts portion. The exception would be Rod & Staff spelling. That is painless to add for most kids. WWE is overkill with HOD; you get plenty of narration, copywork, and dictation practice. Shelve WWE. Susan would prefer you teach those skills in an integrated fashion anyway and despite the differences in the approach (studied vs. unstudied dictation) I think the long term results will be pleasing to you. You can come back to WWE if you don't stay with HOD and you won't lose any ground. HOD really does build those foundational skills well. You should keep in mind the differences between FLL and Rod & Staff. FLL is "grammar" while R&S is a full English program so it includes grammar AND composition. Rod & Staff's composition lessons and "other" types of lessons (i.e. dictionary usage, research skills, outlining, etc.) will not be "made up for" if you sub out FLL for Rod & Staff. FLL ends in 4th though so I think you'd be fine until then. R&S is easier to teach than FLL (I have taught/am teaching both.) because a portion can be done orally and then the student can follow up using a white board and/or a composition book. I am teaching FLL 3 right now and it is 100% teacher intensive; there is nothing to assign the child that doesn't involve the teacher. R&S is more flexible that way. Keep in mind that your teaching load will increase as you move from FLL 2 to 3. It's a very different feel!

Sorry, I double posted and I'm not sure how. What a dork! :smilielol5:

This thread is an interesting read. Maybe you'll find a tidbit to savor ...

Amy, Thank-you for starting this thread as I've been pondering the same questions this school year. Ruth Beechick's book A Biblical Home Education is a favorite of mine. My current position is this (and I realize no one cares about my position but it's fun to flesh it out): Like Rose, I like the integrated grammar approach rather than the structured program in the early years. There is a draw toward something like Primary Language Lessons because it savors language in a less structured but meaningful way. I don't know how to explain it but I've come full circle with this. FLL has some of this with poetry, picture study, etc. and so perhaps it's a happy medium that blends structure and beauty in an introductory English Grammar program. By about 5th grade I DO want formal grammar study. Currently, I am leaning toward using Analytical Grammar in 2 or 3 "seasons" with periodic review. I am still trying to figure out whether or not I want to use anything formal before AG (we're using Rod & Staff now). My top contenders are JAG, Easy Grammar and Daily Grammar Practice. In fact, I am so interested in DGP but because of my own deficiencies I simply don't know how to compare these approaches. Rod & Staff is incredibly thorough but the Part-to-Whole approach kills me. I HATE diagramming sentence skeletons; just show me the entire sentence on a diagram please. I find the approach confusing (though for others it's a God send ..... ) but it's here and it IS a fine English grammar program so we keep plugging away. The big take away for ME is that the teaching parent needs to study grammar. I actually think *I* should be purchasing curriculum for myself and THEN decide what to do for my kiddos. Teaching grammar to my children in an organic way sounds wonderful but I don't know grammar. The most important student in my home this school year is me ..... my deficiencies are painfully obvious. So, should I purchase Easy Grammar and a diagramming book or Analytical Grammar? ;) I am a Whole to Parts learner and I struggle with discovery based learning. I want explicit teaching with a big picture in front of me the whole time .... I have a question and it's a BIG ONE. Why on earth can't we study Latin with Memoria Press and let it be? There seems to be plenty of grammar within Latin. Since I am ignorant, I don't know what is missing (mechanics perhaps? usage?) but it could and probably should mean that I can ease off on formal English grammar. This is why using AG appeals to me. We can work intensively on English grammar for 9-12 weeks of the school year and then shift over to our Latin studies. I can also rotate through kids once I have 2 or more students studying grammar formally. I'd teach one kiddo grammar each semester but never have to teach two at a time (another consideration for any Mom teaching more than two - the reality of how much time it takes daily and weekly cannot be ignored). :001_cool:

I LOVE CLE Reading beginning with 4th Grade (before that there are too many Light Units and too much phonics review). My oldest son has REALLY enjoyed it and it's an almost painless way to learn many skills. I highly recommend you look at the S&S. It's impressive and my son has truly learned a lot and retained well. What I like about it is that it is a skill builder without butchering an awesome chapter book. The kiddos use their readers (these really are fantastic) and the lessons are meaty! My son is 90% independent with it. Beginning with the 4th Grade Reading there are only 5 Light Units so it's about half a school year. This gives me plenty of flexibility with how we schedule it. You can continue allowing your kids to plow through piles of good books and not stop to analyze them =). I suppose it might be good to do lit. analysis at SOME point but the jury is out as to WHEN that should be. Everyone has a different opinion. :coolgleamA:

For Bible I'd consider reading through Leading Little Ones to God. If the 3rd grader is a good reader then I'd assign daily Bible reading. Do you HAVE to do formal history or science? ;) Other ideas that come to mind: Read through good books for a set time each day. Book lists abound. Start with something that sounds lovely (Brambly Hedge? Beatrix Potter? Winnie the Pooh? A fairy tale or picture book anthology?) and carry on. Christian Liberty Nature readers are GREAT for science and narrations. You could assign small portions from the appropriate grade level reader and ask for a narration as often as you think it's necessary. You could also ask the 3rd grader to write out a line or two of copywork right from the reader and include an illustration (possibly copying right out of the reader). I'd want the 3rd grader doing regular work with drawing and writing, including cursive, in order to be ready for Preparing. Buy a pre-made copybook or make your own (Memoria Press' copybooks have gone well here). Drawing can be addressed through Draw Write Now books, Ed Emberley books, etc. Rod & Staff has Artpacs which provide fun motor skills art activities requiring simple supplies. Letter writing is also a GREAT way to practice writing and drawing skills. Assign one letter each week. Teach the form and lay out expectations. Ask the child to include an illustration with the letter (possibly using something from a drawing book in the illustration). Can their Dad take them to the library every 2 weeks and fill up a HUGE box/basket with gobs of books? Man, that works like a charm here and the kids read and read. We also grab a few documentaries. Magic School Bus, Wild Kratts, and Liberty's Kids have been loved by all here. I've been trying to think of things that you could get going and then the kids can work on somewhat independently so you can rest. It's also nice if you can just do what you can each day without feeling like you've "failed" by not checking off boxes. Will you feel good about their next HOD guides if you skip the ones for this year? I don't think it will be a concern AT ALL as long as you keep up with the 3 R's. Personally, I find the early years with HOD to be "optional" as long as you're laying a good skills foundation along the way. Preparing is where it begins to be more important to stay the course from year to year if HOD is your path. ;)

Sherid, Agreeing with the other posters here. HOD is a history heavy curriculum so adding history is not necessary. Preparing has a hugely awesome booklist and plenty of history for the 3rd/4th grade set. Amazing books and highly interesting project/activities/assignments! With HOD I think it's BEST to start with it as is and add to the guide only if you find it necessary after using it awhile. I'd also not make that determination until a few units into the guide. The first week isn't usually the best gauge for how well a guide or any curriculum will fit. :coolgleamA:

Okay ya'll .... Thanks for the great suggestions! We'll hit it tomorrow and I'm going to basically "try again" by having him dictate to me while I type. I'll be applying some of the recommendations here and will report back in. Rose, My daughter is 7.5 and isn't CLOSE to being ready for W&R. :coolgleamA: My son is 9.5 and should be able to handle this. I do NOT think it's too much for him; it's just a new "skill" and he balks at much of his school work. His biggest obstacle is usually attitude :nopity: .

Wrapping up our 1st week with W&R for the 9yo. Today we worked on the re-write of the fable. It was a crash and burn. Here's where I see the trouble and what I think I might do to fix it. This will probably only make sense if you've done the first lesson and know the story and assignment. Okay, I just tried to write out the "trouble I see" and kept deleting it. Hmmmmmm. I think that he thinks he has to come up with a brand new story although I beat the "rewrite" idea to death. I even did my own rewrite to show him an example. His sentences are convoluted, long, and too detailed. He takes a loooooooong time to explain something (i.e. too many details to set up the basic scene in the first paragraph). I sat at the computer and asked him to simply tell me the rewrite and I could type it for him. That way he does the thinking and isn't bogged down by the writing. It didn't end well and I told him we'd put writing away today and revisit this assignment tomorrow. :coolgleamA: I am not quitting this writing assignment as I think it's good for him. He may benefit from alternating W&R and WWE (more cut and dry for him). In order to be successful with this assignment I *could*: 1. Try the re-write again tomorrow but help him brainstorm the specific details of the story. 2. Create a fill in the blank story for him by re-typing the Lion and the Mouse, leaving out sections he can fill in with new characters, the trap, and descriptive details. 3. Stop using W&R because it's a horrible fit for him. :lol: Honestly, I don't think ONE assignment is enough to make any judgments but we did NOT have the lovely success others have. ETA: In using IEW, he does an awesome job re-writing a paragraph with a KWO. Perhaps rewriting a fable is a tad too free form for him. He is also insecure and that doesn't help!

While I am sorry he bombed the writing assessment I have to agree with the lad. What a lame writing assignment for a 7 or 8yo!!!

Ditto. I've been working on it for about a week and this thread is greasing the wheels!

I'd love this thread to keep going .... Hoping for more soup options. Needing help here as cooking is NOT my forte but I want to learn!

Did you try You Tube? I do think the CC Timeline is copyrighted or something.

Tin-Tin is read over and over and over here ..... by all ages, even the 4yo who can't read. My boys want to read Ninjago graphic novels continuously. :o I do allow them to check out a couple of "junk food" books each trip but we take them away if they stop reading quality books. Tin-Tin becomes obsessive and periodically we have a "fast" when all of our TT books are up high for weeks. "Treats" are fine as long as they aren't all you eat in a day, you know?! He he he. I also screen for content in general because I truly hate banality. There are so many dumb books on the market. You couldn't pay me to check out many of the series that are out for kids in juvenile fiction and readers. :ack2: I always reserve a bunch of books that are to my liking and I require the kids to choose non-fiction titles whether or not they want to. We have a great library so it's a feast (we still have to be choosy though). Using the 1000 Good Books List is an easy place to start. I simply started working through the list alphabetically because it was easiest for me. If I run across a book that we LOVE or that we dislike I can mark it for future reference. Oh, I have no idea if they'll naturally gravitate to better choices over time. That hasn't happened here. My kids still need me to build those curbs and direct their choices. Maybe someday! *shrug* B)

How do you sort, organize, and archive your kid's writing work? Within the content areas of their binders or in a separate writing binder?

Okay .... That's cool. I'm whole to parts so perhaps reading through MCT's materials would help ME with the big picture. Maybe that's why I'm having trouble with all of these "parts" .... getting it all pulled together into a cohesive whole. I'm definitely stuck amongst the trees :rolleyes: *shrug*.

Rose, Awesome!!!! :coolgleamA: Hearing it fleshed out is a HUGE help to me. Huge! You have really learned how you want to teach writing by studying for yourself, trying different methods/curricula, and adjusting as needed. I understand that if I want to teach this way I am going to have to dig in and do my homework, take some risks, try some things, ask more questions, etc. Thanks for reminding me about 8Fill's writing method. Do you consider MCT's writing integral to your plan?

Yes, Tracy! ;)

Would it be derailing Tracy's thread to ask detailed questions about this post? Maybe not because Tracy and I are having similar struggles with laying down a writing plan (and relying upon SWB's resources to do so). Your post here is precisely what I refer to when I say that Moms project confidence in teaching writing. You have what sounds like a fleshed out plan. For your 6th grader I see this: She works on papers in history. She alternates between daily writing assignments in history and science working on outlining, note taking, and summarizing. She works on longer papers. She does some literary analysis though its scaled back to leave more room for history writing. Are you using a writing curriculum and then applying those learned skills to your content? Essay Voyage? What kind of papers for history? How do you decide what to assign? How do you teach her to write these papers? Did you choose history and science resources that are conducive to practicing outlining, note taking, and summarizing skills? How do you teach note taking and summarizing? What kind of longer papers? What process do you go through to assign them, teach the process, lay down a syllabus for your student, etc? Are these "reports"? Do you follow SWB's ideas for discussion and written literary responses? I don't know how to organize a writing plan across the curriculum but that is what I want. What SWB says makes sense on the lectures so maybe I run into trouble with choosing history and science resources that allow me to exercise these skills. I could start ANOTHER thread asking Rose to flesh out the specifics (please!) if I need to but hopefully the continuing WWS discussion will help Tracy. ETA: I am going to take my list of questions and seek to answer them using the resources on my shelf. It's likely the answers are there. It seems to me that I can and should take the WTM recs, Susan's lectures, WWS and my own intuition to form a plan that is doable here. Susan DOES make recommendations within WTM for some of the areas I'm struggling with (i.e. resources for note taking).

Paying close attention, Tracy. We seem to have the same questions and frustrations although you are tackling WWS (and TOG). :coolgleamA: Rose, You are a wonderful source of counsel in writing and math! Thanks for giving so much thought to your advice and for taking the time. It's a huge blessing and help to so many.

Rose, How do you teach summarizing skills without using WWE? Is there any other way? Summarizing is quite difficult for me. Thank-you for reminding me about Comprehensive Composition! It resides on a bookshelf in my home. Breathing is in order alongside the coffee and cream. ;). What I am finding most challenging is teaching 4 grades. Two I can do thoroughly and well. With the 3rd kid I begin to lose it and now with #4 coming up the ranks I am SO outnumbered. Many subjects need me at the elbow and I want to be there digging in with my kids. Reality says I can't teach all subjects this way and not at so many levels. I don't know how to resolve this so I am still seeking the right combination of curriculum, methods, etc. to manage well here.

Clear Creek, Thanks! Rod and Staff has more than I realized! I look these resource over and miss a lot and it frustrates me so much! Famous Men has been on my short list. You have hit on 2 or 3 key things that I have been thinking would help despite my struggles and insecurities. Those include Rod & Staff English (I am currently having a temper tantrum with it though), MP's lit, and Famous Men. My husband says that I have good intuition re: the kids but lack confidence and follow through. I spend too much time fretting and being indecisive only to discover that my instincts are good. Follow through is not my strong suit and is my highest goal in teaching this school year. With MP's lit did you work thru the guides? I have put the 5th grade lit and FMOMA in my cart in preparation for studying Rome to the Reformation though I trying to iron out wrinkles in our workload before finalizing. I am terrible at using samples to determine if a resource would work for us. The lit guides look heavy on comp questions. Is there more to it? What is the value in tiring out those writing muscles to answer comp questions? ETA: My assessment of MP lit has changed after perusing the samples on MP's website here . There's more to it than comp questions and it is feasible to make some of those comp questions oral to lessen the writing requirement.

This is lovely. Did you decide this on your own or based on counsel from somewhere (i.e. WTM)? I have a few questions and I am attempting to insert them in your quote in color. ;) Trying to choose a history program has been hard. There are a couple of very good options that also provide reading lists, map work, and worthwhile writing assignments. My rebellious side doesn't want any of them as I have my "own ideas" but these brilliant ideas don't transfer well to day to day or skill building. I am going to have to go with something prepared in order to focus on skills ... :o As an aside, I have been devouring those Wordsmith Apprentice samples this week based upon some other glowing reviews and I am considering it as my 5th grader's course for now. It looks quite doable with a combination of "at the elbow" and "student directed" learning. It's a good idea to pair it with ILL's work though we've never used PLL/ILL. :)

Sixth year of homeschooling and I'm befuddled. I've read WTM and many other books over and over and find that they all swirl in my brain and I'm unable to summarize what I should be doing. So many Moms project such confidence in teaching writing and skills while I still feel like I am spinning. Schooling with 4 students IS proving challenging. It's a LOT to adequately and thoroughly cover all of the basics, attend to needs, feed the bellies, and deal with the attitudes. I can barely keep up. I am constrained by the clock and my available physical energy. My oldest child, a VERY capable boy, is a slow worker. He's in another world most of the time and his pace of life is nothing like mine. I can hardly contain the scream that I want to let out most days .... My goals for him are high but reality dictates that I scale way back so he can be successful. I honestly do NOT know what skills to hit and when. I've read the WTM numerous times and listened to SWB's lectures. Somehow I'm not transferring this to a concise to do list (and we don't love the WTM way for some subjects so perhaps that's where my disconnect is). I should be getting it but I am NOT. When and How do I teach the following? **Note taking. I have NO clue. **Outlining. SWB does this in history studies but the only way to follow WTM's recommendations is to use her resource (Kingfisher I think?). I don't know what resources to use in assigning this. Rod & Staff and WTM both teach outlining but I don't know what to apply the skill to in order to practice it. **Research skills. Where does one begin with this? I don't have any idea as to a scope and sequence. When do I start? How do I start? Is there a resource that will walk me through this? **Reading. My kids read a lot. But, I'm struggling to provide the right type of reading material that will insure they move forward in their skills. I listened to one of SWB's lectures and for 5th grade she mentioned doing all I can to move my child's reading forward. The ONLY thing I can think of is to pull every booklist I know and provide all of those books for my son to read. Beyond that, what should I be doing? **Is vocabulary study important? Should he be narrating in 5th grade? **How MUCH writing should he do? Frankly, when listening to SWB's middle grades writing lecture it sounded like SO little writing (and easy to do). Then, I open up Writing With Skill and practically pass out. It seems like SO. MUCH. MORE and intended by SWB for the 5th/6th grader. I'd much rather write within content subjects then have all of our writing be a separate thing. **There are so many TYPES Of writing. I don't know what should be taught 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. and how often these types or forms should be practiced. This new season of homeschooling is daunting. Setting up appropriate expectations and figuring out what skills to teach, how to teach them, and how often to practice them has me stumped. In another thread I read about how 5th grade is a good time to shore up skills. It sounded spot on but then I sat back and asked, "What skills?". What should I be shoring up? HOW DOES A HOMESCHOOL MOM FIGURE THIS STUFF OUT ON HER OWN?? DO I PICK A GURU TO LISTEN TO AND DO WHAT HE OR SHE SAYS? WHOSE STANDARD DO I FOLLOW? HOW DO I KNOW WHEN IT IS ENOUGH?