That's great! I'm currently working on finding a college student to speak French with my youngest while we wait for my older one to do his community college classes. He's well beyond my French now. He's been reading children's fantasy at about the Harry Potter level in French, but his oral French is quite a lot behind that. He understands spoken French well, as we discovered when we spent a weekend in Quebec. I'm amazed we've gotten so far! Now we're trying to figure out how to add Arabic. He's doing the Pimsleur tapes this year, but then I think I'm going to have to find a real live person, someone with teaching experience preferably, or a class, to take him further. And in another year, he'll be through his Latin text and will switch to just reading Latin. So the plan for high school is to just read literature in Latin, French, and English, TWEM-style (which we're already doing in English and I know works well), and have Arabic as a foreign language. I think that will keep us from getting crunched time-wise with too many language courses. We'll see how it works out. He's 13 now. Thanks for letting me know how it is going. I always wonder. Giving advice is rather scary. -Nan

I'd think about doing a foreign language (orally) and music, and then just lots and lots of library books and projects. Foreign languages and music are two of those things where it is an advantage to learn them young. Our library has tons of nice science, nature, and history books, as well as fiction, so we just got a huge stack out each week and either read them together, or (mostly) my son read them to himself. He learned a lot this way and I could be sure I wasn't burning him out and making him take a dislike to the formal schooling that would come later. It didn't look particularly impressive and I often wondered if I was doing the wrong thing and wasting a few years, but in retrospect I can tell I did the right thing, especially when my son says, as we are reading Dante's Inferno, "Don't you know that story? So-and-so was the guy who ..." Or "That's a such-and-such beetle." Or "Queen blank did ..." He did lots and lots of natural history, art, cooking, learned to use woodworking tools, did origami, learned to play chess, worked on puzzles of all sorts, learned poems and songs, learned to play the recorder, ... Anyway, you get the idea. I didn't do formal math with mine until they were older, but you might vary on that. Just be aware that children learn math in the following order (supposedly) - with concrete items, then with imagined pictures of concrete items, then with words representing the concrete items, and then and only then with symbols representing the words that represent the concrete items. You can spend a long time and do a LOT of math while leaving the writing-it-out-as-numbers stage for later. We did lots of long word problems in the car, just for fun. If you jump to the written representation of a word representing an idea too quickly, your child may get confused. Just something to keep that in mind. We chose to go for breadth rather than depth. My children aren't brilliant, just brightish, so you might wind up doing something radically different LOL, but maybe some of this will give you some ideas. I'm glad we didn't do SOTW until my son was 7 because of the 20th century thing. I'm finding the same thing applies with the logic stage, and even at the rhetoric stage. Much of 20th century literature is grim and not something my children can deal with easily. We're substituting lots of scifi and humour and I figure they can read their 20th cent. literature and history when they are 40, if they want to, and they'll appreciate it more then. SOTW (grammar) and Kingfisher (logic) and Spielvogel (rhetoric) did/are doing a nice overview, and they are doing all their extra reading back farther in time. HTH -Nan

I'm still clumsy with these boards. The MODG syllabus natural history syllabus might be just what you are looking for. It involves reading a few books (real ones, not science text books) and answering questions about each chapter, doing one project which the student designs himself, and doing a drawing book and keeping a nature journal. You could easily do it living in a city. Although it is from a Catholic company, it is secular, or as secular as anything involving nature tends to get. It contains a do-this-today guide and directions on how to grade. And it isn't expensive. -Nan

If you read the first few pages of Creepy Crawlers and the Scientific Method, it explains how to design an experiment. We did lots of extra observations, since we live and vacation in places where there is lots going on, some year-long, like a weather log and our frost-line experiment, some shorter. Some we made into proper experiments. We did extra reading, too, some whole books, some just bits. In the Shadow of a Rainbow and The Tracker are two which come to mind. We did lots and lots of work with nature guides. I made sure my sons knew how to use Newcomb's Wildflower Guide and some of our winter guides, like Winter Weed Finder, which required memorizing some botony vocab and learning to use a dicotomous key. We read a number of Stoke's nature guides cover to cover, especially the insect, bird, and mammal ones. We did some work with Tom Brown's nature books and Audubon programs. We did a bit of geology, astronomy, and some work with different habitats. We read the photosynthesis section of a biology book. We did some work with pond water and its tiny swimmies, and tidepools. We used a microscope and a telescope. And we did a little bit about vernal ponds. We could have kept on doing natural history for the full 4 years and covered just about everything, but I thought it would be easier to divide out physics (in the form of ham radio and Conceptual Physics), and teach it as a separate subject, and I want my son to have a formal lab experience and some proper chemistry, since it is at the bottom of everything. That also gives him a bit of variety on his transcript GRIN, as if Natural History wasn't varied enough. Not everyone is familiar with the term and what it entails, though. You, of course, don't have to do everything we did. We worked on it for at least two solid years without doing any other science, and are still working on it here and there, because that is sort of what we do now. We do history very lightly. If you are a history family, you might be happy just doing the MODG syllabus. ;) We live on a lake, sail, and are out in nature all the time, so we do tons. I consider this to be the most important thing to teach my children, other than being strong and good and perhaps communicating well, which in our family are tied heavily in with the natural world as well. But that is our family. Yours, of course, will be different. Anyway, have fun with the natural history! It is definately lots of fun. Except when you are worried about the baby bird somebody gave you or the squirrel the cat dragged in. But as I said, those things (probably) don't have to be part of your life if you don't want them to be. You can learn a lot from just the MODG syllabus. -Nan

How cumbersome! Thank you, though!

Astrix comes in Latin, too!

TWTM says 8 works per year is ok, 10 is better, 12 is best. We're doing all our literature aloud together, discussing as we go, so it takes forever slowly. We do about 1 longish work per semester (like The Republic or The Iliad), a few shorter ones (like a play, a few poems or speeches, and (hopefully but sometimes not) something else shortish (like Beowulf or The Inferno). Then I have my sons read another work or two during the summer to themselves. Or they listen to the audio version. I'm not doing things strictly chronologically because we take a break every once in a while to do a Shakespeare play or some poetry, or a short story or two. One semester we read Sophie's World instead of a great book, an rather fun overview of philosophy, although the ending was weird. As for work, my younger one doesn't do much written work LOL. I try to have him write down a few thoughts here and there throughout the book, or sometimes we have an idea for something we want to try, like writing descriptions of our friends in the style used at the beginning of The Iliad? Illiad? (sorry can't spell). My older one: Puts the work on a timeline and a map Does a little "why this book is important" research on the internet (mostly using Wikipaedia) Summarizes chapters if they aren't already summarized for him Takes notes or writes in the book when he has something to say (mostly "cool description" or "this guy was warped" or "I don't think this is right because...") We read the genre section of TWEM together if we haven't recently We answer TWEM genre questions together orally And he does a project or writes a paper (he made a reed boat model for Gilgamesh, made a set of drawings for The Illiad, did a comparison of translations for Genesis, etc., but most often, in our discussions, I notice that one of his comments would make a good paper and I point it out and he writes it up) You just sort of have to trust that by the time you get done reading the book, you'll have an idea for a paper or project. We never have trouble with that. If you get stuck, you can go to the pink monkey site and they have a summary of the book (handy if you get really confused) and suggested essay topics. Just do one of those. I also have Reading Strands, which contains a list of literary analysis terms, and I try to discuss one of those from time to time. My children have grown enormously doing this. I really encourage you to give it a try. You can pick and choose your own books this way (very important for our family), and eventually you sort of internalize the general questions in TWEM and notice them as you read. Have fun! -Nan

That is the way they are made. I have found that when my children are "lazy", it usually means that I am asking them to do something that is very very hard, often beyond their strength. The output thing is terribly difficult. It isn't that they are really being lazy about something that would be easy for them. This is very hard to believe, but I think it is true, at least of my children. I think I know the point that you are at. I crossed that point with my older son when he began 9th grade, high school here, and I upped my expectations, suddenly from his point of view. We spent a rather miserable fall until he got the hang of putting a title and date on every paper, writing out more than half a sentence in answer to a question, showing all the steps in math, writing more than a paragraph for a paper, and horror of all horrors, elaborating on things. His younger brother is 4 years behind him and about equal to him in input, but way, way behind him in output. At about 15 or 16, the output picks up and begins to look better, judging by my two older sons. I know you can't wait that long GRIN, so I have a few suggestions, things I'm doing with my youngest son. I began by insisting on a title and date at the top of every page. When he had that down, I began insisting he keep an assignment book. When he was managing that and no longer mad at me for it, I began insisting that he check things off in it. From there I slowly added, one at a time, not tackling the next thing on the list until anger at the first tapered off and he was used to the new expectations: Punctuation at all times, even in a subject that isn't English, like Latin or science At least some words have to be spelled correctly if I am ever going to have to look at the paper All papers have the holes on the left and the big space on the top and are whole Use the next page in his math notebook and keep the cardboard in the back so everything is the same way up Put any finished papers in the box awaiting filing Use full sentences Show the steps for math problems Write the basic equation first, then rewrite it with the numbers filled in, and THEN write the answer for science problems Take a few notes now and then Actually go back and review those notes now and then Make flashcards and use them Actually memorize the stuff for Latin rather than just relying on what seems right Have a topic sentence for reports Write a report or story or something each week, about a page long Write the report on something that he doesn't know, taking a few notes as he looks up the info Write down any experiments he makes up in a lab notebook in something vaguely resembling lab report form And that is as far along as we are now. I hope this list is some comfort to you LOL. Output is something that comes slowly and happens later, even for most very bright children. You should see my nephew's public school output. (and he is very bright indeed) Perhaps you, like me, have raised your expectations suddenly because he is 10 now. If I were you, I'd back off a bit and begin to make the changes a tiny bit at a time so he doesn't notice it quite so much. And I hate to sound pessimistic, but at about algebra level, academic work tends to take more tedious hard work to achieve the higher goals, and it just plain isn't going to be as fun any more, and you son probably just plain isn't going to like it as well any more. I try to talk about how it is ok not to like something, to just do it anyway as a means to an end (like plugging through algebra as a means to solve interesting physics problems and be able to read more interesting physics books). It takes a certain emotional maturity to put up with lots of the tedious difficult stuff in order to get to a particular goal. If he just plain isn't old enough, then perhaps you can go for breadth instead of depth? You could add more subjects at an introductory, fun level. We've done some of this, adding in some geology, astronomy, programming, cartooning, music, another language orally, and if all else fails, just keep on reading with no output science and history and literature, or going for some of the hands-on science, letting him make up his own experiments. The output is necessary for math and some science in depth, but it isn't really for literature and history and introductory sciences. You have all my sympathy. This is very hard, I know, and I struggle with it every day. I'm surprised I still have a tongue, I've bitten it so many times in an effort not to critisize. -Nan

I still am not liking this new format. Sigh.

It is under a post with a title something like "SWB is going to hate me". Fortunately, SWB spoke up and said not to be silly. :)

Maybe try LLATL for the literature? I haven't done it, but I remember looking at it and thinking I'd keep it in mind in case my younger, science-oriented one didn't want to do great books. I bought them used and thought they would be just about the right level for high-school-lite, not too long, easy to use, and could be done independently (something my youngest sometimes wants). That would be 2 years (Am lit and Brit lit). Then you could do Jensen's Format Writing for writing for a 3rd year of English. Or maybe do that first and read a few books for fun? Then you'd have: Composition, American Literature, and British Literature on the transcript. And then maybe your child will have ideas for the 4th year. Or you can decide when you get there. So much changes as you go through high school that sometimes it is better not to put too much effort into planning ahead too far. I've also heard people say that they liked PASS literature. It might be just right for what you are looking for. Somebody here will give you a link if you ask. HTH -Nan

That all those tricks depend on your ability to be able to tell which direction you are supposed to be reading. The bed trick will work ONLY if the child is already reading something and knows which direction to go. If you present me with a d or a b with no other writing around to compare it to to determine which direction I am going, I may or may not (depending on the day) be able to tell you which letter it is. The worst part is that I don't know that I've gotten them backwards when I've gotten them backwards. Sometimes my left and right are just switched. My advice is to teach the bed trick, make sure you teach a different looking b and d (cursive helps), and then not worry about it. This affects my adult life almost nil. I just am careful to tell someone giving me directions in a car to point and not just say "turn right". My wedding ring has been the biggest help GRIN. -Nan

There is a long thread on the curriculum board about this. Even SWB chimed in.

We were doing Writing Strands (successfully) and it suddenly became a huge hassel. Someone said they had switched to Format Writing at the same point and it had been just the thing. I would like to thank them. It has been working nicely for us. My son says the examples are very very bad, but has decided to follow the directions (!!!! - this was our problem with WS) exactly for now with the idea that after he has figured out how to do this, he can go back to being more subtle and making things flow nicely, in his usual style. I think he is right (now that he has pointed it out to me) and am glad he has figured out how to continue improving his writing. Thank you again for the suggestion. -Nan

Thank you, thank you, thank you! Definately going to do this!

I thought I was totally crazy when I first thought up the idea of teaching my children French by just plain speaking it with them, but then I ran across the bilingual family board and realized I wasn't, although I doubt anyone else is crazy enough to do it with such poor French or such old children. It is fun to meet other people who are trying to do this. My biggest challenge at the moment is trying to speak French to my 17yo. What I need to tell him is so complicated it is beyond my French. I don't need to tell him the simple things anymore. Even with my 13yo, I've sort of stopped speaking French. I got him to the point where he could read French and now I'm just having him read books to himself. I'm using my nephew to try to help us go back to it, at least a bit, especially since the 17yo wants to try again to learn before he goes off to college. Both of mine are more willing to speak French to the baby than to me. I think I might have emailed with your friend when my nephew was first born. At that point, I thought the amount of time I spent with him would definately not be enough for him to pick up any French, but happily, I've discovered I was totally wrong about that. Tell your friend for me that it is actually working!!! So now his mother and I are suddenly motivated to try to up his input and I have to get some tapes of French songs and books for her to play to him every day. I don't want him picking up my horrible accent. Are you on the bilingual family emailing list? -Nan

Thank you! Sorry about the lack of accents.

Every once in a while I stop and we rememorize the grammar. My children hate the chanting, too, but it actually works. We tried Latin Primer briefly at the beginning of homeschooling, and I discovered that the stuff we had chanted from that, even sporadically, actually stuck. I also hear the children chanting when they need to know an ending, so I know that is what is working. Fortunely, it is fairly easy to do. I just have to DO it. Mine have the stuff memorized well enough that they can usually translate from Latin to English, but not nearly well enough to go the other way around if it isn't something very simple. I let them use the charts for that. -Nan

I'm struggling, too. I don't know anything about Henle, but I suspect you are having the same problems I am - not enough time to study. If I were learning Latin for myself, it wouldn't be a problem because I would use Lingua Latina and just learn the stuff as I read it, but I can't explain the grammar well enough to use LL so we are Ecce Romani. I love ER, but it does require memorizing stuff and it is extremely difficult at the end of a long day to sit down and do it. I've done two things this year which have really helped. First, I started having us chant things - the new vocab, an old vocab, and whatever grammar we are memorizing, before we do anything else in Latin. Chanting all together loudly is a pretty effortless way for me to get the memorizing done. I still don't know it as well as the children, but at least I know some of it. Second, I try to make time each weekend (when I have a little more energy) to read the story we are working on a few times. That cements the chanting better than anything else for me. Recently, I began to make flashcards for the vocab and memorizing them during gymnastic meets. That will probably end when meet season ends and I don't have hours of waiting (and watching) to do every Sunday (why do boys always get the Sundays and girls the Saturdays?), but at least in the meantime I've got some of those rather similar adverbs memorized. I've also, at times, had a child quiz me in the car. This helps my bad-at-memorizing child get started memorizing the vocab, and helps me. And it doesn't take extra time. And if I announce in the morning, during Latin, that we are going to do this, then my children make me do it even though I don't want to by the end of the day. Hopefully something in these suggestions will help you. I really recommend chanting those endings all together every day. -Nan

Guess that isn't very clear. Just meant that it is always scary speaking for someone else and a relief when they chime in for themselves. ;)

We liked Japanese for Young People.

My oldest's college lost one of his recs this year. Ug. Fortunately, it was just his boss's and it was easy enough to get him to write another, but if it had been one of the others, it would have difficult. And if they lose the medical records of my poor needle-phobic child, I will kill them. -Nan

Check out the National Geographic site. A geographer here said that their curriculum (well, not really curriculum - list of projects is more like it) was fantastic. It is all on-line and free. We made our own: travel, The Geography Colouring Book, and a set of TC anthropology tapes. HTH

Well if you are like me, it means you are bored because things are going ok. Or desperate because they aren't LOL!

Phew! Thank you.