Scarlett Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Scarlett, it was out of respect for you, specifically and personally, that I didn't mention what religion this person had been in. So your response is grating. Yoavu and I both know perfectly well that your religion gives very serious, life-altering, sometimes devastating consequences for leaving, so don't pretend it's that simple. Edited for a word that was too harsh. Sorry to be grating. My experience with my religion--- which I have practiced all of my life is nothing like what you are talking about. I feel bad that anyone would think they have to deceive and plot to leave any religion. It is really a question of integrity. If he feels abused he should leave instead of pretending. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katy Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Sorry to be grating. My experience with my religion--- which I have practiced all of my life is nothing like what you are talking about. I feel bad that anyone would think they have to deceive and plot to leave any religion. It is really a question of integrity. If he feels abused he should leave instead of pretending. No one said anything about deceiving or plotting. She said her friend had been spiritually abused. Try googling your church and spiritual abuse if you don't know what that means, but don't jump to victim blaming because you're certain your religion is perfect. Just don't. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 I think it would be very hit or miss whether a low or high group of Episcopalians would be more likely to be welcoming. Not an issue of welcoming or not welcoming which would depend on the exact people involved. In my (limited) experience, broad church has tended to have less rigid beliefs and to tend more toward emphasizing the idea that one's intellect need not be hung up in the cloakroom. OTOH, I have found more of a tendency in high church parishes for more authoritarianism (along with the more traditional service, chanting, incense, etc.), which if trying to recover from spiritual abuse, might be less good. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 No one said anything about deceiving or plotting. She said her friend had been spiritually abused. Try googling your church and spiritual abuse if you don't know what that means, but don't jump to victim blaming because you're certain your religion is perfect. Just don't. It has been a couple of years since she first mentioned he wanted out but was afraid. That makes me think he has bee pretending all of this time. Now she mentions he has been in counseling and he is 'ready'. So it seems like a man who is pretending to believe and live one way while trying to figure out how to get out of it. It isn't complicated. You just say you want to leave and you leave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greta Posted January 23, 2018 Author Share Posted January 23, 2018 Sorry to be grating. My experience with my religion--- which I have practiced all of my life is nothing like what you are talking about. I feel bad that anyone would think they have to deceive and plot to leave any religion. It is really a question of integrity. If he feels abused he should leave instead of pretending. What the hell are you talking about??? Who is deceiving and plotting? He DID leave - years ago, and he's now trying to find a church which will suit his needs, and I was trying to help him with that. He's not "pretending" anything! Who are you accusing of having no integrity in that scenario, him or me? And WHY? You know what, never mind. Don't answer that. I'm done talking to you. You've gone from annoying to insulting. Please, just don't reply in this thread again, okay? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 What the hell are you talking about??? Who is deceiving and plotting? He DID leave - years ago, and he's now trying to find a church which will suit his needs, and I was trying to help him with that. He's not "pretending" anything! Who are you accusing of having no integrity in that scenario, him or me? And WHY? You know what, never mind. Don't answer that. I'm done talking to you. You've gone from annoying to insulting. Please, just don't reply in this thread again, okay? I apologize. I was under the impression a while back he wanted to leave and couldn't bring himself to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greta Posted January 23, 2018 Author Share Posted January 23, 2018 I apologize. I was under the impression a while back he wanted to leave and couldn't bring himself to do so. I have more than one loved one who has been hurt by your religion. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 I have more than one loved one who has been hurt by your religion. Hmmm.. I see. Sort of. I can't quite figure out the hurt. But I don't need to. I hope everyone lives their life like they want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greta Posted January 23, 2018 Author Share Posted January 23, 2018 No one said anything about deceiving or plotting. She said her friend had been spiritually abused. Try googling your church and spiritual abuse if you don't know what that means, but don't jump to victim blaming because you're certain your religion is perfect. Just don't. Thank you, Katy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greta Posted January 23, 2018 Author Share Posted January 23, 2018 I feel the need to say that even if I had been talking about the same person Scarlett thought I was talking about, her accusations were still unfair. She made it sound like you can just walk away, like you can from any normal, healthy religion, but that’s true ONLY if you never go to another church. If you start attending another church you are excommunicated, and not allowed to speak to your friends or family (spouses excepted) ever again. And since they discourage friendships or strong family ties outside of the religion, that usually means your entire social circle. So, yeah, that keeps some people trapped there who don’t particularly want to be there. And that is not because they don’t have integrity. It’s because they are stuck in a very difficult situation. I am sorry that I lost my temper. I appreciate everyone’s help. Thank you. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Given the extra info I'd definitely steer him toward a church that doesn't make a big distinguishing thing between members and non members. So not Catholic (and I say that as a Catholic), not the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church, etc. He probably would appreciate the freedom to come, participate as much or as little as he'd like, and walk out with no strings attached. Either the UMC or Episcopal will give him that...he could fully participate without ever actually joining, if he so chose. That freedom might be just what he needs as he heals. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 (edited) None. Get counseling before even trying. If you've been spiritually abused (I don't truly know what that means unless someone explains explicitly) to the point where one's emotional needs are the main deciding factor in one's choice of where to worship, serve others, and practice one's faith, then I think counseling is the way to go. I agree....I don't know what spiritual abuse means either, but it seems like choosing any religin should be based on what it teaches. Spiritual abuse is what happens when someone in authority in a church commits some other kind of abuse, whether sexual, psychological, or physical. Abuse done in the name of God has an extra layer of impact than the same type of abuse done in a workplace, etc. because it taints one's whole relationship with God. If you watched the movie Spotlight about the sexual abuse and cover-up in the RCC, this point was made by one of the victims: "How do you say no to God, right? See, it is important to understand that this is not just physical abuse, it's spiritual abuse, too. And when a priest does this to you, he robs you of your faith. " So yes counseling is usually very necessary, but for many, it's also important for healing to not be outside the church entirely even on a temporary basis. And some churches are better places for healing than others. Church A and B may be of the same denomination but Church A may have a toxic leader or toxic community dynamics and not be a good place to be. And some denominations, likewise, emphasize love and grace more than others in their doctrine. I don't think Greta was saying doctrine wasn't relevant, but that she wanted to help her loved one to avoid unknowingly getting into a situation in a denomination known for rigidity, judgmental attitudes, etc. Edited January 23, 2018 by Laurie4b 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrganicJen Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 It has been a couple of years since she first mentioned he wanted out but was afraid. That makes me think he has bee pretending all of this time. Now she mentions he has been in counseling and he is 'ready'. So it seems like a man who is pretending to believe and live one way while trying to figure out how to get out of it. It isn't complicated. You just say you want to leave and you leave. It's not that simple for everyone. I realized I was being spiritually abused for some time and it took awhile to gain the courage and strength to actually cut ties with the religion and it's community that I had been a part of for my whole life at that time. It wasn't like changing which fitness club I belonged to...religion is often a huge part of a person's life and it can take time to really get to a point to be ready to leave a church. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Spiritual abuse in a nutshell: bullying using spiritual threats. That's one way to do it and that is the more likely kind in certain theological systems. But the well-known example of sexual abuse by priests wasn't typically that. (I use that example because it's well known. RCC isn't unique by any means. Tragically it happens everywhere. Look at USA gymnastics.) But in the RCC, that was misuse of spiritual authority and power to serve the self. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greta Posted January 23, 2018 Author Share Posted January 23, 2018 Given the extra info I'd definitely steer him toward a church that doesn't make a big distinguishing thing between members and non members. So not Catholic (and I say that as a Catholic), not the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church, etc. He probably would appreciate the freedom to come, participate as much or as little as he'd like, and walk out with no strings attached. Either the UMC or Episcopal will give him that...he could fully participate without ever actually joining, if he so chose. That freedom might be just what he needs as he heals. Thank you for this! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greta Posted January 23, 2018 Author Share Posted January 23, 2018 I don't think Greta was saying doctrine wasn't relevant, but that she wanted to help her loved one to avoid unknowingly getting into a situation in a denomination known for rigidity, judgmental attitudes, etc. Laurie, thank you for your excellent explanation of spiritual abuse. And wrt the above, you are absolutely right: my primary goal was to try to make sure that he didn’t escape the frying pan only to end up in the fire. It’s not that doctrine isn’t important, it’s that it isn’t the most important thing at this time. His words: “I need comfort and compassion.†Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xuzi Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Laurie, thank you for your excellent explanation of spiritual abuse. And wrt the above, you are absolutely right: my primary goal was to try to make sure that he didn’t escape the frying pan only to end up in the fire. It’s not that doctrine isn’t important, it’s that it isn’t the most important thing at this time. His words: “I need comfort and compassion.†I've been attending an Episcopal Church for a few months now, and that's exactly what I've gotten. Good luck to him. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmmetler Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 After my experience with Spiritual abuse, I found a lot of comfort from rabbinical sermons online initially. It helped that DH’s company at the time was about half Orthodox and Conservative Jews and included membership in the JCC, so I had people to talk over this with. I never stopped being Christian, and no one pushed me to convert, but the focus on the Old Testament and the different way of thinking and just the focus on Learning and discussion was healing in many ways. So, I guess what I’m saying is “consider the possibility of investigating a different faithâ€. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greta Posted January 23, 2018 Author Share Posted January 23, 2018 After my experience with Spiritual abuse, I found a lot of comfort from rabbinical sermons online initially. It helped that DH’s company at the time was about half Orthodox and Conservative Jews and included membership in the JCC, so I had people to talk over this with. I never stopped being Christian, and no one pushed me to convert, but the focus on the Old Testament and the different way of thinking and just the focus on Learning and discussion was healing in many ways. So, I guess what I’m saying is “consider the possibility of investigating a different faithâ€. Would you be able to point me in the direction of any particular sermons or resources? I think he might enjoy that! (I might too!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluegoat Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Not an issue of welcoming or not welcoming which would depend on the exact people involved. In my (limited) experience, broad church has tended to have less rigid beliefs and to tend more toward emphasizing the idea that one's intellect need not be hung up in the cloakroom. OTOH, I have found more of a tendency in high church parishes for more authoritarianism (along with the more traditional service, chanting, incense, etc.), which if trying to recover from spiritual abuse, might be less good. Yes, but I think that is not actually very true. There are quite a lot of very high parishes that are intellectual about theology, and quite a few that are actually quite lax in terms of theology and are more like a sort of liturgical UU (and in my experience "don't need to leave your brain at the door" can refer to either of those approaches depending on who you are talking to.) And as far as low parishes, you are quite as likely to get a more strict approach, more like an evangelical approach perhaps or sometimes a more English version of that - they are after all related to more puritan visions of the CofE. A lot of the groups that have broken off from TEC are low. I would agree that broad parishes are likely to be inoffensive in most ways though sometimes that can end up as bland rather than nurturing. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 (edited) deleted for privacy now that OP saw it Edited January 25, 2018 by Pen 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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