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Another shooting in San Antonio at a church :(


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#851 happysmileylady

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 09:23 PM

There is difference between "refusing to do research" and "refusing to fund research." The first refers to science and the second to politics and money.

 

None of which is relevant to what I posted. 



#852 Barb_

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 09:58 PM

None of which is relevant to what I posted.


I was only addressing the implicit bias in your last statement.

But sure, we can talk about your earlier question. Military-grade weapons including the AR-15 figure predominantly in the largest mass shootings in recent years. They are obviously the weapon of choice when one is looking to eliminate the largest number of people in the most efficient manner.

Smaller more personal mass shootings are another matter entirely. You're probably right that they are largely comitted with handguns or rifles, which brings us to full circle. People who are convicted of any violent crime including domestic violence who are found in the possession of firearms should be subjected to mandatory minimum prison sentences.
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#853 jdahlquist

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 10:32 PM

You know, I am genuinely curious...

 

and before I say this, understand I know that there are restrictions on research that I don't agree with....

 

Having said that, I am curious if anyone knows how many mass shootings are actually done with "high caliber, high powered 'assault-style' rifles."   It's my understanding, as was discussed earlier in the thread that the definition of "mass shooting" includes a whole lot of domestic violence cases, such as a parent who murders his family and then kills himself, as well as cases related to criminal activity, such as drug deals gone wrong. 

 

But, I know that I generally think of these types of cases as having handguns involved.  I am not sure I can recall a news story where a "high caliber high powered 'assault-style' rifle" was used in a mass shooting that wasn't one of the high profile cases like Vegas.  Now, before people post a million links, I am not saying it's never happened.  I am sure it has.  I am not saying it hasn't happened.

 

I am basically just ruminating on the question of just how likely that sort of rifle is to be used in a crime vs other types of firearms.  I suspect the stats don't exist. 

https://www.washingt...ngs-in-america/

 

This article provides a graphic showing the various weapons used in various mass shootings.  It does not have things totaled for an easy summary.  



#854 Murphy101

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 10:47 PM

https://www.washingt...ngs-in-america/

This article provides a graphic showing the various weapons used in various mass shootings. It does not have things totaled for an easy summary.


No it doesn’t give clear numbers but it does state this:

In this tally of weapons, 9mm semiautomatic handguns show up more than any other weapon.


Which makes sense as handguns are the most commonly bought for personal protection and law enforcement.

#855 hornblower

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 01:19 PM

speaking of research, just saw this from American Journal of Preventive Medicine 

Broadening the Perspective on Gun Violence: An Examination of the Firearms Industry, 1990–2015

 

": Trends in firearm manufacturing reveal a shift toward more-lethal weapons, and this trend is also observed in gun purchases and crime gun traces. This may reflect a societal shift in cultural practices"

http://www.ajpmonlin...(17)30258-1/pdf



#856 happysmileylady

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 01:41 PM

https://www.washingt...ngs-in-america/

 

This article provides a graphic showing the various weapons used in various mass shootings.  It does not have things totaled for an easy summary.  

Thank you!  It would be nice if they had it tallied, but the graphics are interesting

speaking of research, just saw this from American Journal of Preventive Medicine 

Broadening the Perspective on Gun Violence: An Examination of the Firearms Industry, 1990–2015

 

": Trends in firearm manufacturing reveal a shift toward more-lethal weapons, and this trend is also observed in gun purchases and crime gun traces. This may reflect a societal shift in cultural practices"

http://www.ajpmonlin...(17)30258-1/pdf

Now, let me see if I was understanding that correctly.  It appears that what that is saying is that the smaller guns, that are both more concealable and generally considered to be more lethal due to their caliber is what is generally driving the increase...did understand that right?



#857 hornblower

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 01:59 PM

 

Now, let me see if I was understanding that correctly.  It appears that what that is saying is that the smaller guns, that are both more concealable and generally considered to be more lethal due to their caliber is what is generally driving the increase...did understand that right?

 

 

yes this is how I read it. They did say pistols and rifles were most of the growth. 

but also "firearm production has moved toward products designed to be more powerful and more concealable."

The other really important thing is IMO the exponential growth in gun manufacturing between 2005 - 2015. Handgun production went up fourfold, and their data indicates the handguns being made and sold are more lethal than prior. 

And what's sold is what's used in crime very quickly "Handguns sold at retail in a given year were over-represented by a factor of nearly five times in crime guns recovered the following year."

 



#858 Guinevere

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 02:02 PM

Another shooting this morning:

https://www.yahoo.co...-182238179.html

#859 Sadie

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 02:42 PM

Another shooting this morning:

https://www.yahoo.co...-182238179.html

 

So sad. And yet utterly predictable. 


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#860 lauraw4321

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 02:55 PM

The prediction that this thread would still be on the first page when the next mass shooting happened came true.

 

So unbelievably heartbreaking. And infuriating.

 

Someone, please DO something.


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#861 OH_Homeschooler

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 03:14 PM

The prediction that this thread would still be on the first page when the next mass shooting happened came true.

 

So unbelievably heartbreaking. And infuriating.

 

Someone, please DO something.

 

Perhaps we should just plan to have a Weekly Shooting thread, like the Book-a-Week thread?


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#862 poppy

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 04:55 PM

"A semi-automatic rifle and two handguns were recovered after deputies shot and killed the gunman." and some targets were apparently picked randomly

 

If you want to know why I get so frustrated in these threads, it's because I don't want to be randomly shot.   And yet every year, the odds of it seem to go up.  Absolutely nothing I can do about it.  No change in sight at all.  There was supposed to be a law starting this year that people who are on SSI disability specifically for mental illness, or who have been declared mentally incompetent to handle their own financial affairs, would not be allowed to get a firearm.  But that law was gutted.   I feel so hopeless.


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#863 Guinevere

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 04:57 PM

"A semi-automatic rifle and two handguns were recovered after deputies shot and killed the gunman." and some targets were apparently picked randomly.

If you want to know why I get so frustrated in these threads, it's because I don't want to be randomly shot. And yet every year, the odds of it seem to go up. Absolutely nothing I can do about it. No change in sight at all. There was supposed to be a law starting this year that people who are on SSI disability specifically for mental illness, or who have been declared mentally incompetent to handle their own financial affairs, would not be allowed to get a firearm. But that law was gutted. I feel so hopeless.


I do feel like this is true. Overall crime may be down, but random crimes are increasing. I don't know if statistics bear that out, though.

#864 happysmileylady

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 08:41 PM

yes this is how I read it. They did say pistols and rifles were most of the growth. 

but also "firearm production has moved toward products designed to be more powerful and more concealable."

The other really important thing is IMO the exponential growth in gun manufacturing between 2005 - 2015. Handgun production went up fourfold, and their data indicates the handguns being made and sold are more lethal than prior. 

And what's sold is what's used in crime very quickly "Handguns sold at retail in a given year were over-represented by a factor of nearly five times in crime guns recovered the following year."

 

 

Hmmmmm.....

 

 

Ok, So, first, I will say that the fact that guns are becoming more lethal doesn't surprise me.  I think that's actually somewhat unavoidable.  Weapons tech has improved in lethality since the first weapon was invented, and I don't think it's possible to stop that.  That's just a general statement.  I think that right now, firearms manufacturers are doing what they are going to do to make a profit.

 

Are there currently limits on the manufacturing of guns?  I mean I know there are some laws regarding who is legally allowed to and so on.  But I am talking about laws requiring specific features or something?  Kind of like how all cars now have to have seatbelts and pass certain crash tests, etc.  I honestly don't know. 

 

 



#865 jdahlquist

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 09:11 PM

I do feel like this is true. Overall crime may be down, but random crimes are increasing. I don't know if statistics bear that out, though.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/.../tables/table-1

 

In the US:

 

1996 violent crime rate 636.6 per 100,000   murder and nonnegligent manslaughter 7.4 per 100,000

 

2015  violent crime rate 372.6 per 100,000  murder and non-negligent manslaughter 4.9 per 100,000

 

These statistics do not indicate if they which of these events were random, but suggest that overall violent crime has significantly decreased over the last couple of decades.



#866 Ausmumof3

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 09:23 PM

https://ucr.fbi.gov/.../tables/table-1

In the US:

1996 violent crime rate 636.6 per 100,000 murder and nonnegligent manslaughter 7.4 per 100,000

2015 violent crime rate 372.6 per 100,000 murder and non-negligent manslaughter 4.9 per 100,000

These statistics do not indicate if they which of these events were random, but suggest that overall violent crime has significantly decreased over the last couple of decades.


One article I read said the numbers are partly due to better medical techniques meaning a higher survival rate for victims. Not sure how significant the percentage is. I would think knowing more about mental health would help.
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#867 happysmileylady

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 09:30 PM

One article I read said the numbers are partly due to better medical techniques meaning a higher survival rate for victims. Not sure how significant the percentage is. I would think knowing more about mental health would help.

 

I have read that too, and I suspect that does have something to do with it.  But the post you quoted also shows a decrease in overall violent crime which I would assume include those crimes where the victim survives.

 

I also have to say that I find it interesting to contrast your post and the post you quoted with the study that shows that the handguns being produced now are more lethal than they were 10 yrs ago. 



#868 jdahlquist

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 09:31 PM

One article I read said the numbers are partly due to better medical techniques meaning a higher survival rate for victims. Not sure how significant the percentage is. I would think knowing more about mental health would help.

That could reduce the number of murders (because someone doesn't die) but the majority of the violent crimes are aggravated assault and those have decreased significantly also (which if there was an issue of counting someone as an assault vicitm rather than a murder victim that number would be higher over time.)



#869 Guinevere

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 10:30 PM

Ok, another crime statistic thing that I'm not sure is true. I can't remember where I heard it. Supposedly, identity theft has increased a huge amount, and digital theft as well. So, violent crime is down because the perp doesn't have to physically confront the victim.
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#870 Liz CA

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 10:38 PM

Another shooting this morning:

https://www.yahoo.co...-182238179.html

 

Yes, this is fairly close by; in fact we used to live closer than we are now. And again, a school was targeted.


Edited by Liz CA, 14 November 2017 - 10:42 PM.


#871 happysmileylady

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 10:38 PM

Ok, another crime statistic thing that I'm not sure is true. I can't remember where I heard it. Supposedly, identity theft has increased a huge amount, and digital theft as well. So, violent crime is down because the perp doesn't have to physically confront the victim.

i have heard identity theft and other digital crimes as well. However I am not sure that can be correlated to the decline in violent crime. The world is more digital in general than it was years ago. There are just more digital things to steal. Today, I can renew my vehicle plates and my drivers license without setting foot into a BMV. I can pay all of my bills online sitting at home in my jammies. None of that was possible years ago, and every one of those transactions is at risk. And really there is very little WE as consumers can do, we are pretty reliant on the security of the people we are giving the money to.

Also, “identity theft” as a category is somewhat new. It only makes sense that as we figure out the ins and outs of a new criminal category the stats continue to go up.

#872 happysmileylady

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 10:42 PM

Just for the record, there was a shooting where four people (plus a dog) were killed prior to today’s school shooting. Which, if the defintion of “mass shooting” is 4 people shot, qualifies as a mass shooting.

It was just less news worthy.

#873 jdahlquist

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 10:48 PM

Ok, another crime statistic thing that I'm not sure is true. I can't remember where I heard it. Supposedly, identity theft has increased a huge amount, and digital theft as well. So, violent crime is down because the perp doesn't have to physically confront the victim.

Finding meaningful identity theft statistics is difficult.  If some picks up my wallet on a park bench, takes the cash and throws the rest in the trash it can count as identity theft because they stole my identification.  If a retailers database is hacked and it contains information about 10,000 customers, that is considered 10,000 people who have experienced identity theft (although it was one instance of hacking).  



#874 shinyhappypeople

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 11:04 PM

Hmmmmm.....

 

 

Ok, So, first, I will say that the fact that guns are becoming more lethal doesn't surprise me.  I think that's actually somewhat unavoidable.  Weapons tech has improved in lethality since the first weapon was invented, and I don't think it's possible to stop that.  That's just a general statement.  I think that right now, firearms manufacturers are doing what they are going to do to make a profit.

 

Are there currently limits on the manufacturing of guns?  I mean I know there are some laws regarding who is legally allowed to and so on.  But I am talking about laws requiring specific features or something?  Kind of like how all cars now have to have seatbelts and pass certain crash tests, etc.  I honestly don't know. 

 

Yes.  In California we have laws for everything just short of boxers vs. briefs. 

 

Guns approved for sale in California - guns have to pass certain safety tests.

 

"Bullet buttons" are illegal.  My understanding is that a semi-automatic with a bullet button is now considered a fully automatic weapon.

 

There are probably other ones.  I'll ask my husband when he comes in.  (Hunter safety instructor, NRA range-master, and just plain knows a lot about guns, gun safety, and gun laws)



#875 shinyhappypeople

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 11:12 PM

Here's the wikipedia on California's gun laws.  Before you read, grab a cup of coffee and get comfy.  There's a lot on the page.  For the sake of perspective, compare them to a state like Idaho or New Hampshire.  

 

As it turns out, all these gun laws and cute little "Gun Free Zone" signs didn't do a damned thing to stop a person who was intent on evil.  


Edited by shinyhappypeople, 14 November 2017 - 11:19 PM.

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#876 happysmileylady

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 11:17 PM

Yeah i am going to have to read those tomorrow. I have never heard of a bullet button and had to look it up and still am not sure I am understanding it. I might understand it better tomorrow with a clearer head.

#877 poppy

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 12:06 AM

More details coming out. " [A neighbor says] that he had threatened him, and had stabbed another neighbor, a woman, in a dispute earlier this year, and “I believe he was on bond because of that.” The authorities said the woman, whose name has not been released, was among the deceased. 'As far as we know he was, you know, crazy,” Mr. Flint said. “He shoots a lot of gunshots at night, in the morning, like a hundred rounds......'” and "a judge had issued a restraining order against the gunman after the dispute with the neighbor in January. He did not describe what happened between them but said the judge’s order did not prohibit the gunman from possessing firearms."     

 

We don't know if he was legally allowed to own firearms or not, but, apparently the restraining order obtained by the woman he stabbed wasn't enough (??) 

 

 

 


Edited by poppy, 15 November 2017 - 12:08 AM.

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#878 Liz CA

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 12:26 AM

More details coming out. " [A neighbor says] that he had threatened him, and had stabbed another neighbor, a woman, in a dispute earlier this year, and “I believe he was on bond because of that.” The authorities said the woman, whose name has not been released, was among the deceased. 'As far as we know he was, you know, crazy,” Mr. Flint said. “He shoots a lot of gunshots at night, in the morning, like a hundred rounds......'” and "a judge had issued a restraining order against the gunman after the dispute with the neighbor in January. He did not describe what happened between them but said the judge’s order did not prohibit the gunman from possessing firearms."     

 

We don't know if he was legally allowed to own firearms or not, but, apparently the restraining order obtained by the woman he stabbed wasn't enough (??) 

 

Hmphhh.



#879 Halftime Hope

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 08:37 PM

I wonder if anyone has thought about passing a law such as, if a police report is filed against me for DV and it passes some kind of scrutiny--a form of due process, if you will, to ensure that frivolous filings are weeded out--the filing then automatically triggers a warrant being issued, and police make a stop by my house to pick up my guns.  If the case goes to court and I am found not guilty, then and only then, do I get the weapon(s) back.  If I'm found guilty, then my hardware is automatically destroyed.   That would probably require a 24-72 hour hold on a DV suspect, to allow local LE to complete the task without as much risk to themselves.

 

I'd also like to see a commission look at all the ways crimes, DV, and mental health issues are reported, and establish guidelines for such, so that the NICS checks are more accurate.  Based on the commission's report, a national law would have to be passed to standardize and mandate reporting.

 

thinking, thinking...

 

 

 

 



#880 Halftime Hope

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 08:48 PM

More details coming out. " [A neighbor says] that he had threatened him, and had stabbed another neighbor, a woman, in a dispute earlier this year, and “I believe he was on bond because of that.” The authorities said the woman, whose name has not been released, was among the deceased. 'As far as we know he was, you know, crazy,” Mr. Flint said. “He shoots a lot of gunshots at night, in the morning, like a hundred rounds......'” and "a judge had issued a restraining order against the gunman after the dispute with the neighbor in January. He did not describe what happened between them but said the judge’s order did not prohibit the gunman from possessing firearms."     

 

We don't know if he was legally allowed to own firearms or not, but, apparently the restraining order obtained by the woman he stabbed wasn't enough (??) 

 

The article in the NYT says the restraining order prohibited him from having weapons, but that he manufactured them in his home.  Also reports by his sister that he had a history of mental illness. 

 

Sigh...one child in critical condition.



#881 happysmileylady

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 08:53 PM

The article in the NYT says the restraining order prohibited him from having weapons, but that he manufactured them in his home.  Also reports by his sister that he had a history of mental illness. 

 

Sigh...one child in critical condition.

 

As 3D printers become more advanced, the whole "manufacturing our own guns" thing is a bit scary.  I don't know what I think about all that. 


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#882 hornblower

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 09:26 AM

As 3D printers become more advanced, the whole "manufacturing our own guns" thing is a bit scary.  I don't know what I think about all that. 

I have two thoughts about this.

Given that manufacturers have seen this coming for a lot longer than jane average citizen, I cannot help but wonder whether the exponential growth of gun production and sales in the past 15 yrs or so is not just a simple strategy by a small group of people to exit the market with a last hurrah. These corporations are in it to make their last lousy penny for as long as they can and I think it's quite likely just a giant corporate push and then they'll take their money off the table and go peddle some other thing.  And some of the same people who yell about media influence and monopolies 'msm' can't apparently see that there's a giant monopoly of gun manufacturers who are all intent on selling them a narrative. 

Secondly, it's not the 3d printing on its own that is the problem. It's an attitude that a reasonable response to a fear or a threat is a gun wielded by a civilian, rather than a law enforcement official  + poverty reduction programs + crime prevention initiatives. That's the problem. You're decivilizing. All those post apocalyptic movies and stories about people struggling to survive are not meant to be blueprints for life now;  but from my perspective, it seems like some have absorbed a message that this is their current life. 
 


Edited by hornblower, 16 November 2017 - 09:27 AM.

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#883 poppy

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 09:34 AM

I wonder if anyone has thought about passing a law such as, if a police report is filed against me for DV and it passes some kind of scrutiny--a form of due process, if you will, to ensure that frivolous filings are weeded out--the filing then automatically triggers a warrant being issued, and police make a stop by my house to pick up my guns.  If the case goes to court and I am found not guilty, then and only then, do I get the weapon(s) back.  If I'm found guilty, then my hardware is automatically destroyed.   That would probably require a 24-72 hour hold on a DV suspect, to allow local LE to complete the task without as much risk to themselves.

 

I'd also like to see a commission look at all the ways crimes, DV, and mental health issues are reported, and establish guidelines for such, so that the NICS checks are more accurate.  Based on the commission's report, a national law would have to be passed to standardize and mandate reporting.

 

thinking, thinking...

 

Preventing someone else, particularly an enemy, the ability to take away your guns is a big fear motivator that is pushed by the guns rights group. So the fear is that a woman will falsely report domestic violence and that will result in guns being removed from a  law abiding citizen.  

You know what this made me think of ?   The head of Besty Devos's civil rights division said 90% of  campus rape reports were false claims. The odds of authorities taking a domestic violence that seriously don't seem high in this world right now.



#884 poppy

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 09:37 AM

I have two thoughts about this.

Given that manufacturers have seen this coming for a lot longer than jane average citizen, I cannot help but wonder whether the exponential growth of gun production and sales in the past 15 yrs or so is not just a simple strategy by a small group of people to exit the market with a last hurrah. These corporations are in it to make their last lousy penny for as long as they can and I think it's quite likely just a giant corporate push and then they'll take their money off the table and go peddle some other thing.  And some of the same people who yell about media influence and monopolies 'msm' can't apparently see that there's a giant monopoly of gun manufacturers who are all intent on selling them a narrative. 

Secondly, it's not the 3d printing on its own that is the problem. It's an attitude that a reasonable response to a fear or a threat is a gun wielded by a civilian, rather than a law enforcement official  + poverty reduction programs + crime prevention initiatives. That's the problem. You're decivilizing. All those post apocalyptic movies and stories about people struggling to survive are not meant to be blueprints for life now;  but from my perspective, it seems like some have absorbed a message that this is their current life. 
 

 

Bingo. And put armed guards in schools and churches, don't forget.


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