Frustration

[manicmum81]

My DD10 has been home with me for a year now and we just don't seem to be making any progress.

 

She is reluctant to read as she often mispronounces words. She is still saying words how they are spelt even though I have said that not all words are pronounced phonetically.

 

When copying work she will copy it down wrong, often putting words in the wrong order, adding in extra words or leaving some out. She constantly spells the same word a variety of ways in the same piece of writing. One time it can be correct, the next two times incorrect.

 

If you ask her to read a passage and answer questions about it she can't seem to find the correct answers or puts something random down that doesn't make sense.

 

She struggles to do work independently, if I send her off to do English grammar for example, she will come back and says she's finished but it will mostly be incorrect because she hasn't understood what she needed to do.

 

I can't even get a piece of work done where she knows where to correctly put a full stop or a capital letter!

 

I have tried reading to her and then asking her questions but again she doesn't retain much information. Bits and pieces will have stuck, like certain words or a phrase but not the idea as a whole.

 

Maths is also an issue as anything beyond simple addition and subtraction is lost on her. She still counts using her fingers. We have made some progress with her times tables but she has to work some of them out on the back of her paper. Any math problem that requires more than one step is not happening. She doesn't seem to understand how to carry numbers over. Word problems I don't even attempt to give her anymore. I thought possibly dyscalculia might be the issue but the lady I spoke to today said that they only have issues recognising numbers and it's not to do with working out problems. Is this true?

 

Prior to pulling her out of school I was concerned she might be dyslexic but kept getting told they had no concerns. I used to get angry at her and think she was just being lazy and not applying herself but the longer she has been home, the more I believe there is something going on.

 

I contacted a place that offers screening but do not diagnose. The lady who I spoke to kept acting like all the issues I described to her were not signs of dsylexia. When she asked how much she retains when I am the one reading to her and I said not much, she said that was unusual and dyslexic only have issues with reading and writing but do well in things like history and science etc. Again, is this true that comprehension is not affected? I was under the impression it was. The lady agreed to go ahead with the screening if I wanted but the impression I got from her over the phone was that she thought it was more to do with how my child had been taught then anything else. She also said that if the children had phonics based learning when they were young it could skew the results of the screening process. I honestly don't know a school around here who doesn't teach children phonics and my daughter was in school from age 4-9.

 

I feel lost and don't know what to think or do. Is my child just being lazy and not trying or is there really an underlying issue? I can't afford full private assessments and it's almost impossible getting education related services once you leave the school environment in my area. Once you leave the system, you are basically on your own and getting referred or helped in any way is a nightmare because you don't have a school backing you up.

 

Do you think I should go ahead with the screening? Perhaps it's not dsylexia and something else?

 

Any thoughts and ideas welcome.

[PeterPan]

Are you in the US or elsewhere? I'm only asking, because you have legal protections and options in the US that you might not have elsewhere. 

 

She clearly has some issues going on and clearly needs evals. The challenge is that the person you're going to probably is not qualified to evaluate them AT ALL or to give you complete help. For instance, if her thing is dyslexia and she runs a CTOPP, fine. But you still don't know if she has SLD math, SLD writing, ADHD (60% comorbid with dyslexia), ID, low working memory, developmental vision problems, etc.

 

I'm not saying that to overwhelm you. I'm just saying first I would ask what specific tests this person is proposing to run and how much they cost. Can you do the tests and be given a copy of the score sheet without paying for a full, written report? Sometimes places will do that. For instance, around here I can get a CTOPP and DRE for $75. No written report, but just some data points and enough to make some decisions.

 

So if the testing is very, very inexpensive, I would proceed. It will give you a baseline and some data to begin to intervene. If, however, the testing is several hundred dollars (because it involves a report, whatever), then I would pause and seriously look at other options. 

 

See, here's the problem. She could have more going on than what this lady can diagnose. Because my ds has language issues, I'm very concerned about what you're saying about how she struggles even with read alouds. When this lady is saying things aren't a sign of dyslexia, she might be trying politely to tell you there's assuredly MORE going on than dyslexia. And it's actually true it might not be dyslexia. There are some things (hearing loss, CAPD, etc.) that could create phonological processing problems but not be dyslexia.

 

I think, given the complexity of presentation, and given the incompleteness of the proposed evals, that I would pause and seriously consider ALL your options. That would include traveling to a place that is farther away but cheaper, looking at a university for evals, calling around to find more options, piecing evals together, getting her on your state child medicaid to get coverage, going through the public schools and using the law and the dispute process till you get satisfactory evals, etc. It will take a while, but if you're in the US you DO have more options. I don't think incomplete evals are worth a whole lot at this point. If they're more than $75, I wouldn't. I would look for more options, more ways, and start fighting. If you're in the US, you DO have more options. You're going to need more complete evals, unfortunately, so you're going to have to fight to get them. 

 

Do you have relatives you can implore for help? This is a situation where I would call in those kindnesses. I absolutely, positively would. It is NOT your imagination that something is going on, and unfortunately it's complex enough that you're not going to sort it out without help. If I were looking at the dream list, I would want a hearing eval and SCAN3 screening ($35 at our local university that has an excellent audiology dept), vision eval (under $100) with a developmental optometrist, and a neuropsych eval. I'm saying neuropsych, because it would give you your basics (achievement, IQ, CTOPP, ADHD, etc.) but also typically includes screening on motor issues and language testing. I think, given the things you're describing, you need language testing. If you were to find a clinical psych who specializes in learning disabilities, they might be able to run the basic testing for you more affordably. Like around here, the clinical psych will do that for $850 and the neuropsych will be $2500. That's a huge difference! Then you would get an SLP eval for the language issues.

 

Those are the things I would want. And I'd like to point out that if you use the clinical psych plus SLP plus university audiology plus basic vision exam with a developmental optometrist, you'd be at about $1200-1300 around here. Now things vary around the country, I'm just saying by shopping around that's what it would cost here. And you might have grandparents, a church, someone who would chip in. Or you could take the $300-400 or whatever the lower eval would cost and save a bit and put it toward the more full evals. 

 

If you're in the US, you also have access to state child medicaid, federal law requiring the ps to do the evals, etc. There will be ways to get things done. If the ps refuses, you'll have to fight. There ARE ways.

 

You are not crazy with what you're seeing. I think these symptoms are dreadfully concerning, and I think you're at a pivot point where you're either going to find out what's going on and get her intervention or have her conclude things about herself and spiral. It's definitely the time!

 

So maybe give us more information and see if we can generate ideas to help you. Your library will have the NOLO book for the IEP process, if you're in the US. Your state may have disability orgs that provide advocacy services to help you. Some optometrists have no child untreated policies and will help you make the evals happen.

[TheReader]

It sounds like it could be a number of things; dyslexia (and dyscalculia) both could be part of the picture. Dyscalculia definitely impacts learning math, not just recognizing numbers. 

 

I'm not sure if comprehension is impacted specifically by dyslexia or not; other things to consider might be processing speed, or a processing disorder. My son has a multitude of issues, and I have trouble teasing out which one causes which thing, but he does also have problems with comprehension from non-fiction (not from fiction). Usually, in his case, the issues with non-fiction stem from just plain not paying attention/zoning out, OR if I try to quiz him over too large a chunk. What I've done to remedy this is give him a question first, and tell him to listen out for the answer and let me know as soon as he hears it. Then I read, he stays more engaged, and when he says he hears the answer we repeat the question and he says yes or no, that's the answer (the part he stopped me on), and we put it down. Then I give him the next question, and read the next portion, and so on. So, this might be something you can try with your daughter and see if it helps. If, after even doing things like that, she still isn't comprehending, then yes, I'd say you definitely need to seek an evaluation. 

 

I don't know how helpful the screening (but not diagnosing) will be, but it's a place to start, maybe. 

 

Also, are you asking your dd to do work that's simply too hard/too much? She  may not be ready for independent work, at all, if she has as many problems reading, copying, etc., as you say. If you go over the grammar lesson or math lesson with her orally, does that change things? My son is nearly 12, but we still do all of his work completely together and mostly orally. He can do some math (when it isn't a new teaching) independently, but not much else yet because his reading skills aren't there. 

 

You may have to change how you do things, even what curriculum(s) you are using for her; my son doesn't do well with any (at all)  of the same curriculum that his older brothers thrived with. At all. For a while, early on, I kept trying to force my square peg into that round hole (i.e., make him use the same stuff they did), but eventually I realized -- part of the problem is this curriculum just isn't right for him. Once I switched things up and paid attention to how he learns best, and what would work for him, he began to improve. So, that could be a fix for some of these things.

 

For example, before my son had the comprehension skills to answer questions about a reading, I realized that he was engaged and listening because *during the reading* he would make content-appropriate comments, ask me questions, etc. I began writing those things down/keeping a record of our conversations while reading, and using that to mark his progress rather than giving him quizzes to see if he understood. He was showing me, clearly, that he understood *while it was being read to him* even though his brain wasn't yet holding onto the information for later.  Small adaptations like this may help your daughter & you have a better year, until you are able to afford the full testing to figure out what specifically is going on. 

 

For math, If your daughter needs manipulatives, let her use them. Get her a number line (or make one), a 100s chart, a simple 10x10 abacus, anything that will help her do her math w/o being shamed or embarrassed for still needing the visual aid. Teach her how to use those items to figure things out, and encourage her when she gets the right answer; she's still learning math this way, and understanding it, and memorization will come later. Meet her where she is, and go from there, instead of where you think she is supposed to be.

 

It's maybe the hardest thing about having a kid with learning challenges....shifting your own expectations. I have to constantly reassess where we are, and quite a while ago pretty much threw out the "future plan" that my son was meant to follow through to high school graduation. I've no idea what his path to graduation will look like, not yet; it's far too soon. I don't even know yet what his next year will look like, because I don't yet know how much reading progress he'll have made between now and the end of the summer. I just go each semester where he's ready to go, take each next step as it comes. It's so hard -- so hard! -- to school like that, but so necessary with a kid with learning challenges. We keep a sort of road map, we know we want to get from Point A to Point Z, but the route, the time table, the detours along the way & shortcuts....those are all pretty much up to him, what he's ready for, when.

 

I bet if you are able to take this approach with your daughter, it will help some. Not saying that she doesn't also have some learning challenges; it sounds very likely she does. But even without knowing what those challenges are called, you can adapt her curriculum to work with her strengths instead of against her weaknesses. If you suspect dyslexia, look for an Orton-Gillingham based reading program to fill in all the gaps she has and build that up. If you know she doesn't like to work independently, don't make her do so yet. If she isn't sure where to put a full stop and a capital letter, instead of making her write, sit side by side with her and have her show you where to correct sentences that have mistakes (if her reading is good enough for this; if not, set that aside for now). If you want her writing, allow her to type on the computer and show her how to use spell check. Or, give her a small journal and a daily writing prompt; have her write ever day, no set amount, just whatever the prompt inspires her to write. Then, once a week or even only once a month, you and her together select one of the things she wrote and correct it for spelling, punctuation, etc. If she reads and writes well enough, let her do this on her own, but if not (and honestly with the reading & copying issues you describe, I wouldn't do writing just yet at all, other than have her dictate to you if you want her to practice story-telling), sit with her and help her. Show her, not just correct it and give back. Coach her through it. 

 

For comprehension, if you read a short fiction piece (such as an Aesop's Fable or something), can she retell the story in her own words afterwards? Even if she can't pick out specific details when you ask? If you turn the questions into multiple choice (even just 2 choices) can she tell you the correct answer then? If so, there's your solution for that. If not, try and figure out why not. Does she listen better/retain better when still, or when moving, fidgeting, drawing? Some kids actually retain better if they can doodle or something. 

 

I feel like I'm getting rambly and repeating myself, so I'll stop here, but just be encouraged that even if you can't afford or locate testing/evaluations, you can still adapt things to help your daughter whether you know the names of all her learning challenges or not. You can do this. 

 

 

[TheReader]

And I definitely agree with Elizabeth; it sounds really a lot more complex to me than just dyslexia, and she's right, you need to start with intervention soon so your dd doesn't get discouraged. Meanwhile, though, I think you also need to adapt things so you aren't demanding more of your daughter than she can give you right now. 

 

But OhElizabeth is very spot-on in what she says about the evals. They will help, a lot. 

[manicmum81]

Are you in the US or elsewhere? I'm only asking, because you have legal protections and options in the US that you might not have elsewhere.

 

She clearly has some issues going on and clearly needs evals. The challenge is that the person you're going to probably is not qualified to evaluate them AT ALL or to give you complete help. For instance, if her thing is dyslexia and she runs a CTOPP, fine. But you still don't know if she has SLD math, SLD writing, ADHD (60% comorbid with dyslexia), ID, low working memory, developmental vision problems, etc.

 

I'm not saying that to overwhelm you. I'm just saying first I would ask what specific tests this person is proposing to run and how much they cost. Can you do the tests and be given a copy of the score sheet without paying for a full, written report? Sometimes places will do that. For instance, around here I can get a CTOPP and DRE for $75. No written report, but just some data points and enough to make some decisions.

 

So if the testing is very, very inexpensive, I would proceed. It will give you a baseline and some data to begin to intervene. If, however, the testing is several hundred dollars (because it involves a report, whatever), then I would pause and seriously look at other options.

 

See, here's the problem. She could have more going on than what this lady can diagnose. Because my ds has language issues, I'm very concerned about what you're saying about how she struggles even with read alouds. When this lady is saying things aren't a sign of dyslexia, she might be trying politely to tell you there's assuredly MORE going on than dyslexia. And it's actually true it might not be dyslexia. There are some things (hearing loss, CAPD, etc.) that could create phonological processing problems but not be dyslexia.

 

I think, given the complexity of presentation, and given the incompleteness of the proposed evals, that I would pause and seriously consider ALL your options. That would include traveling to a place that is farther away but cheaper, looking at a university for evals, calling around to find more options, piecing evals together, getting her on your state child medicaid to get coverage, going through the public schools and using the law and the dispute process till you get satisfactory evals, etc. It will take a while, but if you're in the US you DO have more options. I don't think incomplete evals are worth a whole lot at this point. If they're more than $75, I wouldn't. I would look for more options, more ways, and start fighting. If you're in the US, you DO have more options. You're going to need more complete evals, unfortunately, so you're going to have to fight to get them.

 

Do you have relatives you can implore for help? This is a situation where I would call in those kindnesses. I absolutely, positively would. It is NOT your imagination that something is going on, and unfortunately it's complex enough that you're not going to sort it out without help. If I were looking at the dream list, I would want a hearing eval and SCAN3 screening ($35 at our local university that has an excellent audiology dept), vision eval (under $100) with a developmental optometrist, and a neuropsych eval. I'm saying neuropsych, because it would give you your basics (achievement, IQ, CTOPP, ADHD, etc.) but also typically includes screening on motor issues and language testing. I think, given the things you're describing, you need language testing. If you were to find a clinical psych who specializes in learning disabilities, they might be able to run the basic testing for you more affordably. Like around here, the clinical psych will do that for $850 and the neuropsych will be $2500. That's a huge difference! Then you would get an SLP eval for the language issues.

 

Those are the things I would want. And I'd like to point out that if you use the clinical psych plus SLP plus university audiology plus basic vision exam with a developmental optometrist, you'd be at about $1200-1300 around here. Now things vary around the country, I'm just saying by shopping around that's what it would cost here. And you might have grandparents, a church, someone who would chip in. Or you could take the $300-400 or whatever the lower eval would cost and save a bit and put it toward the more full evals.

 

If you're in the US, you also have access to state child medicaid, federal law requiring the ps to do the evals, etc. There will be ways to get things done. If the ps refuses, you'll have to fight. There ARE ways.

 

You are not crazy with what you're seeing. I think these symptoms are dreadfully concerning, and I think you're at a pivot point where you're either going to find out what's going on and get her intervention or have her conclude things about herself and spiral. It's definitely the time!

 

So maybe give us more information and see if we can generate ideas to help you. Your library will have the NOLO book for the IEP process, if you're in the US. Your state may have disability orgs that provide advocacy services to help you. Some optometrists have no child untreated policies and will help you make the evals happen.

Sorry, I probably should have clarified that I'm in the UK. We basically have to go through our doctor for any referral but when you don't have schools to support concerns it's pretty much a waste of time. They don't like doing anything that might cost money when it comes to the NHS.

 

We are definitely far more limited than you guys in the US in terms of testing and even acknowledging issues it seems.

 

DD10 had her eyes checked today and I was told her vision is fine, despite them hinting she was a touch long sighted they said it didn't warrant glasses. I was told she didn't need checking again for the next two years. Her hearing, when it was checked in school, always came back fine.

 

I recently looked in to having full evaluation for one of my other children privately (for different reasons - the school have already said he shows traits of dsylexia) but it was going to cost around £3000!

[OneStepAtATime]

FWIW, a standard eye screening may very well not catch developmental vision issues.  Those are different from visual acuity issues.  My daughter is near-sighted with an astigmatism but she also has developmental vision issues that were not caught for quite a while.  My son has more than perfect visual acuity.  He does not need glasses.  He has fairly profound developmental vision issues.  Neither of my children's developmental vision issues were caught by a standard eye exam.  They needed to be seen by a specialist trained to detect and diagnose those issues specifically.

 

Also, a standard hearing exam is not going to catch most auditory processing issues.  That takes an audiology exam using an audio booth.

 

I, unfortunately, do not have recommendations for what you might be able to do in the UK regarding evaluations but I do agree 100% that your child needs evaluations AND a person who can accurately diagnosis based on those evals if you are going to really find out what is happening.  It could be quite a combination of things.  I am so sorry I don't have specific recommendations for how to get your child properly evaluated.  

 

In the meantime, yes, you may have to radically change how you are teaching her, including possibly going way back to very beginning basic skills to try and solidify her base before moving forward successfully and not expecting much, if any independent learning until whatever underlying issues she may have can be effectively addressed.  Recommendations above will hopefully help you with that.  

 

While you process through and find better paths, please seek out strengths within your child and nurture her interests as well.  My kids have done far better when they saw they had gifts, too, and were encouraged and supported in pursuing areas of personal interest.  If we only focused on areas of weakness they got so discouraged it became almost impossible to improve.  Depression and anxiety began to take over.

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[manicmum81]

It sounds like it could be a number of things; dyslexia (and dyscalculia) both could be part of the picture. Dyscalculia definitely impacts learning math, not just recognizing numbers.

 

I'm not sure if comprehension is impacted specifically by dyslexia or not; other things to consider might be processing speed, or a processing disorder. My son has a multitude of issues, and I have trouble teasing out which one causes which thing, but he does also have problems with comprehension from non-fiction (not from fiction). Usually, in his case, the issues with non-fiction stem from just plain not paying attention/zoning out, OR if I try to quiz him over too large a chunk. What I've done to remedy this is give him a question first, and tell him to listen out for the answer and let me know as soon as he hears it. Then I read, he stays more engaged, and when he says he hears the answer we repeat the question and he says yes or no, that's the answer (the part he stopped me on), and we put it down. Then I give him the next question, and read the next portion, and so on. So, this might be something you can try with your daughter and see if it helps. If, after even doing things like that, she still isn't comprehending, then yes, I'd say you definitely need to seek an evaluation.

 

I don't know how helpful the screening (but not diagnosing) will be, but it's a place to start, maybe.

 

Also, are you asking your dd to do work that's simply too hard/too much? She may not be ready for independent work, at all, if she has as many problems reading, copying, etc., as you say. If you go over the grammar lesson or math lesson with her orally, does that change things? My son is nearly 12, but we still do all of his work completely together and mostly orally. He can do some math (when it isn't a new teaching) independently, but not much else yet because his reading skills aren't there.

 

You may have to change how you do things, even what curriculum(s) you are using for her; my son doesn't do well with any (at all) of the same curriculum that his older brothers thrived with. At all. For a while, early on, I kept trying to force my square peg into that round hole (i.e., make him use the same stuff they did), but eventually I realized -- part of the problem is this curriculum just isn't right for him. Once I switched things up and paid attention to how he learns best, and what would work for him, he began to improve. So, that could be a fix for some of these things.

 

For example, before my son had the comprehension skills to answer questions about a reading, I realized that he was engaged and listening because *during the reading* he would make content-appropriate comments, ask me questions, etc. I began writing those things down/keeping a record of our conversations while reading, and using that to mark his progress rather than giving him quizzes to see if he understood. He was showing me, clearly, that he understood *while it was being read to him* even though his brain wasn't yet holding onto the information for later. Small adaptations like this may help your daughter & you have a better year, until you are able to afford the full testing to figure out what specifically is going on.

 

For math, If your daughter needs manipulatives, let her use them. Get her a number line (or make one), a 100s chart, a simple 10x10 abacus, anything that will help her do her math w/o being shamed or embarrassed for still needing the visual aid. Teach her how to use those items to figure things out, and encourage her when she gets the right answer; she's still learning math this way, and understanding it, and memorization will come later. Meet her where she is, and go from there, instead of where you think she is supposed to be.

 

It's maybe the hardest thing about having a kid with learning challenges....shifting your own expectations. I have to constantly reassess where we are, and quite a while ago pretty much threw out the "future plan" that my son was meant to follow through to high school graduation. I've no idea what his path to graduation will look like, not yet; it's far too soon. I don't even know yet what his next year will look like, because I don't yet know how much reading progress he'll have made between now and the end of the summer. I just go each semester where he's ready to go, take each next step as it comes. It's so hard -- so hard! -- to school like that, but so necessary with a kid with learning challenges. We keep a sort of road map, we know we want to get from Point A to Point Z, but the route, the time table, the detours along the way & shortcuts....those are all pretty much up to him, what he's ready for, when.

 

I bet if you are able to take this approach with your daughter, it will help some. Not saying that she doesn't also have some learning challenges; it sounds very likely she does. But even without knowing what those challenges are called, you can adapt her curriculum to work with her strengths instead of against her weaknesses. If you suspect dyslexia, look for an Orton-Gillingham based reading program to fill in all the gaps she has and build that up. If you know she doesn't like to work independently, don't make her do so yet. If she isn't sure where to put a full stop and a capital letter, instead of making her write, sit side by side with her and have her show you where to correct sentences that have mistakes (if her reading is good enough for this; if not, set that aside for now). If you want her writing, allow her to type on the computer and show her how to use spell check. Or, give her a small journal and a daily writing prompt; have her write ever day, no set amount, just whatever the prompt inspires her to write. Then, once a week or even only once a month, you and her together select one of the things she wrote and correct it for spelling, punctuation, etc. If she reads and writes well enough, let her do this on her own, but if not (and honestly with the reading & copying issues you describe, I wouldn't do writing just yet at all, other than have her dictate to you if you want her to practice story-telling), sit with her and help her. Show her, not just correct it and give back. Coach her through it.

 

For comprehension, if you read a short fiction piece (such as an Aesop's Fable or something), can she retell the story in her own words afterwards? Even if she can't pick out specific details when you ask? If you turn the questions into multiple choice (even just 2 choices) can she tell you the correct answer then? If so, there's your solution for that. If not, try and figure out why not. Does she listen better/retain better when still, or when moving, fidgeting, drawing? Some kids actually retain better if they can doodle or something.

 

I feel like I'm getting rambly and repeating myself, so I'll stop here, but just be encouraged that even if you can't afford or locate testing/evaluations, you can still adapt things to help your daughter whether you know the names of all her learning challenges or not. You can do this.

As far as independent work goes, this is her choice not mine. I want her near me so that I can ensure she understands and I can answer any queries. I do this with her brother and sister who I also have at home but she often gets frustrated or angry when working and goes off in a huff to finish alone.

 

The work isn't too hard I don't think but I also don't want to only give her easy things she can do without trying so that she never has to push herself, as I don't believe this will help her in the long run. When we first started out it definitely was but I realised very quickly she was at least 2-3 years behind where she should be so her work is usually around Year 3 (she should be in Year 6 now).

 

For a time I let her type only and she only had to write when doing spellings just so she wouldn't lose the feel for using a pen. However, I felt like she got lazy and then never wanted to pick up a pen ever. Her handwriting suffered a lot as a result so I started making her handwrite her work again more recently.

 

I have tried letting her just sit in the living room so that we aren't formally at the table but this doesn't make a difference. I've tried having background music. Anything to make it less 'school like' but it just ends up leaving her distracted.

 

With Maths, I encourage the children to do what they need to do to help them work answers out (I myself have to write things down to make sense of things) but we are still dealing with the fact she remembers that at school you were expected to work everything out in your head and therefore feels 'stupid' and a 'baby' for needing to write it down or use her fingers etc.

 

Honestly, I feel like I should have pulled her out when she was younger so that I could have monitored more closely what was going on with her. However, I blindly believed the teachers when they said they had no concerns and was always shocked when she brought her schoolbooks home at the end of the year and the same mistakes were apparent in her work. Poor spelling and grammar, almost no punctuation, misunderstood maths facts etc. Some of the best work she produced during that time she admits she was copying off other children or had help for teaching assistants.

[manicmum81]

FWIW, a standard eye screening may very well not catch developmental vision issues. Those are different from visual acuity issues. My daughter is near-sighted with an astigmatism but she also has developmental vision issues that were not caught for quite a while. My son has more than perfect visual acuity. He does not need glasses. He has fairly profound developmental vision issues. Neither of my children's developmental vision issues were caught by a standard eye exam. They needed to be seen by a specialist trained to detect and diagnose those issues specifically.

 

Also, a standard hearing exam is not going to catch most auditory processing issues. That takes an audiology exam using an audio booth.

 

I, unfortunately, do not have recommendations for what you might be able to do in the UK regarding evaluations but I do agree 100% that your child needs evaluations AND a person who can accurately diagnosis based on those evals if you are going to really find out what is happening. It could be quite a combination of things. I am so sorry I don't have specific recommendations for how to get your child properly evaluated.

 

In the meantime, yes, you may have to radically change how you are teaching her, including possibly going way back to very beginning basic skills to try and solidify her base before moving forward successfully and not expecting much, if any independent learning until whatever underlying issues she may have can be effectively addressed. Recommendations above will hopefully help you with that.

 

While you process through and find better paths, please seek out strengths within your child and nurture her interests as well. My kids have done far better when they saw they had gifts, too, and were encouraged and supported in pursuing areas of personal interest. If we only focused on areas of weakness they got so discouraged it became almost impossible to improve. Depression and anxiety began to take over.

 

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

Thank you.

 

Low moods and self esteem has been an issue for her. She feels dumbs and doesn't think she'll ever be able progress.

 

I have recently tried to get her to go to an after school club but she is having anxiety about it but hopefully she will go next week.

 

She used to do gymnastics but gave up. She recently talked about getting back into it. She is more physical and creative in her interests than academics. It's difficult to get her to see that these have value too.

[MomatHWTK]

It sounds like the emotional social issues should take precedence over academics. If there are learning disabilities or psychological issues, it will be hard for her focus on academics. Part of homeschooling is learning how to teach the child in the way that suits them best. (IMO)

[PeterPan]

Sorry, I probably should have clarified that I'm in the UK. We basically have to go through our doctor for any referral but when you don't have schools to support concerns it's pretty much a waste of time. They don't like doing anything that might cost money when it comes to the NHS.

 

We are definitely far more limited than you guys in the US in terms of testing and even acknowledging issues it seems.

 

DD10 had her eyes checked today and I was told her vision is fine, despite them hinting she was a touch long sighted they said it didn't warrant glasses. I was told she didn't need checking again for the next two years. Her hearing, when it was checked in school, always came back fine.

 

I recently looked in to having full evaluation for one of my other children privately (for different reasons - the school have already said he shows traits of dsylexia) but it was going to cost around £3000!

 

 

Thank you.

 

Low moods and self esteem has been an issue for her. She feels dumbs and doesn't think she'll ever be able progress.

 

I have recently tried to get her to go to an after school club but she is having anxiety about it but hopefully she will go next week.

 

She used to do gymnastics but gave up. She recently talked about getting back into it. She is more physical and creative in her interests than academics. It's difficult to get her to see that these have value too.

Crazy thought, but you could to the US, have a nice holiday, and get your evals done too for less. You've mentioned anxiety, low motivation. She's clearly got a significant mix going on.

 

If you can around, can you get a lower price with someone else? Or if you cross to another country? 

 

Is there a dyslexia advocacy group in the UK who could point you to options for affordable evals? Support groups? Dyslexia or disability schools?

 

Ronit Bird is in the UK. You could write her and see if she has any names. She has a website and is on FB.

[PeterPan]

If you're *not* going to get evals, I would proceed assuming everything. Will they at least run a hearing eval? Like seriously, just a basic hearing test to make sure she doesn't have hearing loss.

 

Beyond that, I would assume EVERYTHING, the worst case scenario, and intervene appropriately for all of them. I would assume ADHD with anxiety and read books and use strategies appropriate for that. I would assume dyslexia and begin proper intervention (Barton or something similar). I would assume dyscalculia and go through the Ronit Bird materials, starting with her wonderful, inexpensive ebooks. I would assume dysgraphia and focus on typing, oral narration, and bringing back the joy to ANY form of writing (daily prompts, journaling, comics, poetry, limericks, anything) before beginning a structured writing program using software like Inspiration. I would get Dyslexic Advantage by the Eides, I would use use that book to guide you into doing something every single day that works to her strengths. Even if she seems lost in a sea of weaknesses, find SOMETHING she's good at and nurture it and use it. And if that means you go out every day to volunteer or find a mentor or take up some hobby or activity, all the better.

 

I think I would assume some language issues. If you can pay for very little, I think getting the CTOPP would help you immediately. That's for the dyslexia. And then if you can get an SLP eval to at least do some kind of language testing, it would be wise. What does your NHS do for ADHD? Your ped can diagnose that? You're trying to discriminate whether the comprehension issues when you read aloud to her are because of hearing loss, language delays, or ADHD. Could even be a mixture of those. I'm just saying, if you have limited funds, that's what you're trying to sort out.

 

If you give complaints that sound like language or hearing, will the NHS docs give you a referral for hearing or language evals? Like don't say learning disabilities. Just listen enough complaints that they send you to one or the other or both, kwim? 

 

Unfortunately, the entirety of my "knowledge" of the NHS in the UK is based on Doc Martin. May or may not be accurate, lol. They make it sound so caring there. That's just astonishing and frustrating if you can't get ANY evals affordably, even piecemeal. Have you tried calling universities to see if they do evals for less? Definitely keep trying.

[manicmum81]

It sounds like the emotional social issues should take precedence over academics. If there are learning disabilities or psychological issues, it will be hard for her focus on academics. Part of homeschooling is learning how to teach the child in the way that suits them best. (IMO)

I have tried not to pressure her in terms of schoolwork and there have been weeks where we don't get anything done because she completely lacks motivation and it's pointless trying but I can't let that go on forever.

 

I think school definitely left its mark. It destroyed her self confidence and honestly I regret a lot of time that she was there. Even from nursery age, I sent her because that was what was expected (lots of family pressure) she became a selective mute when she was there and they became concerned so I pulled her out. I probably never should have sent her to school in hindsight.

[manicmum81]

Crazy thought, but you could to the US, have a nice holiday, and get your evals done too for less. You've mentioned anxiety, low motivation. She's clearly got a significant mix going on.

 

If you can around, can you get a lower price with someone else? Or if you cross to another country?

 

Is there a dyslexia advocacy group in the UK who could point you to options for affordable evals? Support groups? Dyslexia or disability schools?

 

Ronit Bird is in the UK. You could write her and see if she has any names. She has a website and is on FB.

Anything special needs related isn't consistent in this country, it depends on where you live a lot of the time how easily available it is. There are massive waiting lists for most, if not all things. I have waited over six months before just to get an initial meeting with a Peadiatrician, let alone further referrals after that. They don't like making referrals especially without school backing. The word of a school carries SO much weight here. So called professionals rarely listen to you without their support.

 

I am going to have to really do my homework on all this. To be honest, I am still worn down from the long task it's been to get her brother diagnosed with ASD. It took me five years before they finally gave him a diagnosis and that was only because I fought to get him assessed.

[OneStepAtATime]

That sounds so incredibly difficult!  I have issues locally with doctors being clueless and resistant.  I had to drive 4 hours to another city to get proper evaluations for a lot of things.  At least I had a pediatrician that wanted to help (even though she was just as clueless as everyone else, she was flexible enough to accept that I might have an idea of what I was talking about).  Goodness, I don't know what I would do in your situation.  I am sending you positive thoughts and support, whatever that may be worth to you.  

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[manicmum81]

If you're *not* going to get evals, I would proceed assuming everything. Will they at least run a hearing eval? Like seriously, just a basic hearing test to make sure she doesn't have hearing loss.

 

Beyond that, I would assume EVERYTHING, the worst case scenario, and intervene appropriately for all of them. I would assume ADHD with anxiety and read books and use strategies appropriate for that. I would assume dyslexia and begin proper intervention (Barton or something similar). I would assume dyscalculia and go through the Ronit Bird materials, starting with her wonderful, inexpensive ebooks. I would assume dysgraphia and focus on typing, oral narration, and bringing back the joy to ANY form of writing (daily prompts, journaling, comics, poetry, limericks, anything) before beginning a structured writing program using software like Inspiration. I would get Dyslexic Advantage by the Eides, I would use use that book to guide you into doing something every single day that works to her strengths. Even if she seems lost in a sea of weaknesses, find SOMETHING she's good at and nurture it and use it. And if that means you go out every day to volunteer or find a mentor or take up some hobby or activity, all the better.

 

I think I would assume some language issues. If you can pay for very little, I think getting the CTOPP would help you immediately. That's for the dyslexia. And then if you can get an SLP eval to at least do some kind of language testing, it would be wise. What does your NHS do for ADHD? Your ped can diagnose that? You're trying to discriminate whether the comprehension issues when you read aloud to her are because of hearing loss, language delays, or ADHD. Could even be a mixture of those. I'm just saying, if you have limited funds, that's what you're trying to sort out.

 

If you give complaints that sound like language or hearing, will the NHS docs give you a referral for hearing or language evals? Like don't say learning disabilities. Just listen enough complaints that they send you to one or the other or both, kwim?

 

Unfortunately, the entirety of my "knowledge" of the NHS in the UK is based on Doc Martin. May or may not be accurate, lol. They make it sound so caring there. That's just astonishing and frustrating if you can't get ANY evals affordably, even piecemeal. Have you tried calling universities to see if they do evals for less? Definitely keep trying.

Like I said in my recent post, things work a lot differently over here. The NHS is on its knees and they don't like wasting resources so they are reluctant to refer everyone who asks. Money is everything, if your child ends up having a special needs that means they are going to be entitled to resources so they don't like labelling, that way they avoid financial obligation down the road. I was flat out told with my son they won't diagnose for autism until over the age of 7 in case 'they grow out of their behaviours'. Not all areas are that bad and some will diagnose younger for things like that but I live in a bad area for that and you can't just get the help you need. For example, the last time I saw a Paediatrician he flat out told me that the mental health team had such a long waiting list they were only referring kids who were suicidal everyone else got turned away.

 

Ultimately people who can afford it do pay privately to get seen faster and get answers but there is no guarantee after that, that any diagnosis will be recognised since it was paid for and some boroughs only accept NHS diagnosis if you want help at a later stage with treatment, further assessments etc. and will ignore the private result.

 

It's only when you have severe physical or mental disabilities you get help and even then it's a fight for a lot of people. They cut funding to things to save money.

[manicmum81]

That sounds so incredibly difficult! I have issues locally with doctors being clueless and resistant. I had to drive 4 hours to another city to get proper evaluations for a lot of things. At least I had a pediatrician that wanted to help (even though she was just as clueless as everyone else, she was flexible enough to accept that I might have an idea of what I was talking about). Goodness, I don't know what I would do in your situation. I am sending you positive thoughts and support, whatever that may be worth to you.

 

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

Thank you.

 

I am becoming disheartened in all honesty. I have never been one to seek out a label, I just want to know what is going on, if anything, so that we have a way forward and also for the future, should she want to further her education or with a job, if she has a diagnosis, they can't discriminate against her and certain allowances can be made.

[PeterPan]

I have tried not to pressure her in terms of schoolwork and there have been weeks where we don't get anything done because she completely lacks motivation and it's pointless trying but I can't let that go on forever.

 

I think school definitely left its mark. It destroyed her self confidence and honestly I regret a lot of time that she was there. Even from nursery age, I sent her because that was what was expected (lots of family pressure) she became a selective mute when she was there and they became concerned so I pulled her out. I probably never should have sent her to school in hindsight.

 

Have you looked at autism criteria, to see if she could be diagnosed? Again, the person you talked with is telling you these things are NOT explained by dyslexia, because they're not. 

 

I just read your other comments about how hard it is to get service there. I'm so sorry. And we're so not to supposed to talk politics on the boards, but to me THESE kinds of stories are so important as we discuss health care. People wish they could just give everyone everything, but you CAN'T. Clearly you can't. And while you have nationalized health, you don't even have basic, reasonable, affordable access.

 

I don't know what to say. I wish you could move to somewhere with better access. I've heard it varies in Canada but can be just as bad, depending on the province. I guess that's a big leap to say come to America, but there you go. Better yet, come to Ohio. You'd get AMAZING access in Ohio.  :)

 

Has your ds with autism gotten any kind of intervention? Does he get ABA? I'm just asking, because maybe the behaviorist working with him would give you some ideas about how to handle this situation. She's either clinically depressed or rigid or something. I think you're going to need better help than just wishing it away. 

 

I encourage you to focus on *interaction*. Whether it's ADHD with depression or ASD or whatever is going on, interaction, relationship, bonding is going to be your key to coming to the other side. Will she do ANYTHING with you? Will she bake cookies? Like seriously, go bake cookies and call it school. To bake cookies, you have to read. Go look for recipes and make a pinterest board together! Then make the cookies and get in your math. Then eat the cookies and talk about nutrition. Then work off the cookies and call it PE. 

 

My ds gets ABA in-home, and pairing is where they start. They take whatever he's doing, whatever is motivating, and they start doing it with him. We're not there in your home to know your dd's clinical diagnosis, but I think you can't go wrong with this. If she just needs to deschool, well baking cookies sounds like de-schooling to me! Leaving her alone to withdraw socially and be depressed is NOT de-schooling. De-schooling should still involve social interaction, relationship-building, and social health. Right now she doesn't sound socially healthy, so no matter what her clinical diagnosis you're going to need to get that going in a better direction.

Edited January 13, 2017 by OhElizabeth

[manicmum81]

Have you looked at autism criteria, to see if she could be diagnosed? Again, the person you talked with is telling you these things are NOT explained by dyslexia, because they're not.

 

I just read your other comments about how hard it is to get service there. I'm so sorry. And we're so not to supposed to talk politics on the boards, but to me THESE kinds of stories are so important as we discuss health care. People wish they could just give everyone everything, but you CAN'T. Clearly you can't. And while you have nationalized health, you don't even have basic, reasonable, affordable access.

 

I don't know what to say. I wish you could move to somewhere with better access. I've heard it varies in Canada but can be just as bad, depending on the province. I guess that's a big leap to say come to America, but there you go. Better yet, come to Ohio. You'd get AMAZING access in Ohio. :)

 

Has your ds with autism gotten any kind of intervention? Does he get ABA? I'm just asking, because maybe the behaviorist working with him would give you some ideas about how to handle this situation. She's either clinically depressed or rigid or something. I think you're going to need better help than just wishing it away.

 

I encourage you to focus on *interaction*. Whether it's ADHD with depression or ASD or whatever is going on, interaction, relationship, bonding is going to be your key to coming to the other side. Will she do ANYTHING with you? Will she bake cookies? Like seriously, go bake cookies and call it school. To bake cookies, you have to read. Go look for recipes and make a pinterest board together! Then make the cookies and get in your math. Then eat the cookies and talk about nutrition. Then work off the cookies and call it PE.

 

My ds gets ABA in-home, and pairing is where they start. They take whatever he's doing, whatever is motivating, and they start doing it with him. We're not there in your home to know your dd's clinical diagnosis, but I think you can't go wrong with this. If she just needs to deschool, well baking cookies sounds like de-schooling to me! Leaving her alone to withdraw socially and be depressed is NOT de-schooling. De-schooling should still involve social interaction, relationship-building, and social health. Right now she doesn't sound socially healthy, so no matter what her clinical diagnosis you're going to need to get that going in a better direction.

My son doesn't get any intervention. Since he doesn't have a significant learning disability or behavioural problems they basically give you the diagnosis and send you on your way. He's only ever been offered counselling when at school (self esteem issues) but he never opened up so they stopped trying. He had the occasional social story at school but other than that, he's never had anything. He's probably the easiest of my children to deal with in a lot of ways ironically because he's quiet, well behaved for the most part, prefers his own company and will get on with work as long as it's in short bursts. He can't focus for long periods of time before zoning out or getting distracted.

 

I agree that she was depressed for a long time. She was sleeping too much, spent too much time alone in her room, little motivation, poor self image (she sucks her thumb & she's self conscious of her teeth) but she has gotten a lot better more recently and actually more open to things. She has also got hormones working against her, she has already started her period and she isn't ready to deal with it. She is quite immature for her age, still enjoys playing with dolls and play doh with her younger siblings. I don't think that's helped. She kind of went into denial that it was happening and tried to hide it from me. She also compares herself to my eldest, who at 12 1/2 has always found school work easier. She was quick to read, is good at mental maths and picks things up quickly in general.

 

She will do things like cooking or arts/crafts, anything that doesn't revolve around typical book learning she is happier to do. She has this kenetic sand stuff that you can mould and make things, which she loves. She taught herself how to use Minecraft through watching YouTube videos and has made some impressive things on there. For Christmas she asked for a keyboard as she had been trying to learn using an online piano programme so she has some interests, she just doesn't think they have merit because it isn't something that she can feel 'clever' doing.

 

She would happily do these types of things all day but then I'm left feeling like we aren't doing enough 'real' work iykwim. I have family who ask when they are going back to school. My mother is disgusted we aren't more closely monitored as she thinks school is the best place for kids even though my kids all hated it. If people found out we weren't sitting at a desk doing workbooks etc I would never hear the end of it.

 

I don't think she is on the spectrum. If anything I think my other son is (that's a whole other story in itself lol).

 

I think I just need to start over with everything. Until I can figure out how to get her assessed in any way, things need to change. She won't like doing work that she feels that is too young for her but I don't see any other option but to start at the beginning. I thought we had gone far enough back before but maybe we didn't. Maybe I need to treat her like she's never been educated at all and re-teach her like a kid who has just started school.

[PeterPan]

Well if you get her going with some of her interests and you *validate* them by putting them on the list as part on the list as school work, I think you'll start seeing skills sneak in. For instance, if she's doing Minecraft and programming, is she reading? Is she typing? You can even have that discussion, like hey we need to work on typing but ANY way you improve at typing is cool with me and counts as school. So then you put typing on the list and she does the thing she chose. And you create some ways that work for you two together to benchmark and highlight progress. Like you might say hey maybe try to practice each day 3 minutes on the typing software then do the thing you chose, and any month where you improve your typing speed by at least (pick a number that's really attainable, like 2 or 3) words per minute, you've hit our goal. Kwim? 

 

I would definitely take what she's already doing and validate that she IS clever and creative with things. That's what Dyslexic Advantage by the Eides is all about. And say she does have more going on. She STILL has something to give to the world.

 

Kids with disabilities respond well to structure, clear expectations. Does she get dressed every day? Does she have a morning routine? Start with basics like this.

 

The Ronit Bird materials would help you fill in her holes on math, yes. They're very affordable. For reading, see what Orton-Gillingham based programs you have in the UK. For writing, she can do copywork, typing, and oral narration. You said she likes to sculpt? She likes playdough. Well that's cool! My dd loved sculpting too. For my dd, that really really heavy need to do hands-on fizzled out around 7th, iirc. So even though it seems intense, it may pass in a year or two. I would embrace it and roll with it. You could read aloud a story together (history, literature, whatever) and she could sculpt it from playdough or Sculpey or air drying clay or whatever you like. Then she can retell the story, working on getting the major points in, oral narration. You just did school with playdough!

 

Meet her where she is.  :)

[AliR]

You should be able to get a referral to an NHS speech and language therapist either from your GP or health visitor.  It is also possible to make an appointment direct with the speech and language therapy services.  My experience is that this is the most accessible route for someone who is not in the school system and, even if issue is not primarily one of speech and language, they have a lot of experience and will often be able to point you in the right direction of what they think the issues are like a poor working memory.

 

We did eventually get a multi-disciplinary assessment through the NHS, but the whole purpose seems to be directed around getting a statutory assessment for special school placement, so it was of no use at all in helping us to help DD.  There was certainly no guidance in the way of 'this means that you need to do...'

 

Whatever you manage to achieve in the way of testing, I think you would be better going back to the beginning just like you said.  And of course emphasise that this is because of a teaching problem, rather than it being a failure on her part.

 

 

 

 

[TheReader]

I really think more than the material, as in what level it is, you need to find what method works for her. Get creative. Seriously. 

 

Eliminate the parts that really bog her down/slow her up -- I know you are worried about writing/penmanship, but have her try a chalkboard (lap sized) or dry erase board instead, or get her some good pencil grips. Especially for math; you say one of the things that frustrates her is feeling she *should* be able to do it all in her head --- let her work it out in chalk or dry erase, which leaves no "evidence" behind that she had to do so. Even make a game of it, and get you each a lap sized board to use. You sit down and work the problem at the same time, step by step. She then sees "Hey, mom works things out too..." and is (hopefully) more willing to do so, and it gives her practice without making worse the feeling of inadequacy. 

 

Use a journal or basic writing prompts, let her make up stories, find something fun for her to write or story-tell about (whether she writes it, types it, or dictates it to you and you type it). While you're working on her just finding the joy in learning again, don't focus yet on correcting the grammar in every story. Once a week, or every other week, or once a month, choose one and work through the corrections with her. This sort of thing will be just as effective, but far more enjoyable, than a workbook. I did this with both my older boys -- one is currently in college, where he had a perfect GPA this semester, and the other is taking outside classes now for half his school and also making top marks. The college student even had one of his writing assignments saved and used as the class sample by the professor, because it was that good. Yet we never did a formal "grammar workbook" -- we just did these journals and worked on it like I've described. 

 

Remove the part that frustrates her, though; if part of the issue might be visual processing, or tracking, or dysgraphia (affects handwriting and other motor skills), then forcing her to physically write *everything* is a bad idea, and even if it isn't dysgraphia, if the physical act of writing makes her performance go down in other areas, then is it really worth it? if she is more cooperative when typing, doing things orally, etc, try that again and see if it helps. You can have her practice penmanship separately, as it's own thing, but if it's part of the problem for her, then remove it from all the places where you can do things w/o her having to physically write. If, after a few months, her performance in those areas doesn't go up, and her penmanship goes down, then you could add it back in, but just as a trial run I would take it out of the equation. Since you can't get evals where you are, trial & error is your best bet to figure out where the problem lies. 

 

Try some of the comprehension techniques I mentioned when you do her history, science, read-alouds, etc. Can she find the answer if you give her the question ahead of time and ask her to listen for it? Can she retell a (short) story in her own words, even if she can't answer specific questions? Can she answer if given 2 choices, and get the right one (more often than just by guessing)? This will help you figure out if it's auditory processing, or a language/verbal issue; if the problem is things getting mixed up when she hears them, or if things are getting mixed up when she tries to give the answer. 

 

Does she make more mistakes, or fewer mistakes, when she reads something herself and finds the answer vs. when it's read to her? This will help you figure out if it's visual processing or auditory processing that's poorer/more of a concern. If she does better with reading, even though she still makes mistakes, see if she can read aloud to you. Then, have her read the question out loud, and make sure she understands what the question is asking for. Separate her work into small chunks for her; this might take work on your part if the materials aren't ordered (i.e., the questions don't appear in order of how the answers are found in the text). Go through her reading for each day/week, and mark which paragraph holds each answer (a small number in the margin would work). Then, assign her to read (or read aloud), but give the questions to her in the order the answers are found, not the order the questions are listed, and only read until the first question. If she does better orally/being read to, then you know you need to do most of her work out loud, even if she doesn't want to at first. 

 

If she can answer a question from the text when you read  her the question, then read the portion of the text containing the answer, then repeat the question -- but she can't if you read further -- this could signal poor working memory, meaning she simply can't keep as much information in the "memo" part of her brain at one time as you would think. Can she follow multi-step directions? Can she repeat a string of numbers, forwards and backwards? If you list her a list of items, can she remember all of them? This sort of thing signals a working memory problem, and if that's at play, small chunks is the only way to help her (until/unless you can build that up). 

 

Instead of worksheets & quizzes, would you be content to have her make projects? Instead of just answering questions, can she do maps to show the events, a timeline where she colors the figures and places them where they belong? Maybe she creates a drawing, or a poster, build a model, etc., with what she's learned. Can she tell you "three important things" from a story, even if they aren't the things that the questions ask about? Get creative with how you ask for the information. If she likes artistic things, let her use that art in her schoolwork, so it does become something she feels clever about. 

 

For the longest time, my son could answer certain questions in one direction, but not the other. For example, maybe he could tell you "What state's capitol is Austin?" but not be able to tell you "What is the state capitol of Texas?" even though the two are flip sides of the same thing. Likewise he still has that issue sometimes with math, and can tell you 9+4=13, but not 13-9=4 without counting it out (or similar). When your daughter has difficulty answering, see if she can get it if you go back and rearrange it/flip it around. I don't know *what* causes this, but it's one thing that makes my son look like he has terrible comprehension. He doesn't....he just needs things rearranged, often. He also can't always answer questions unless we do the small chunks thing....but he drew an entire comic strip about the great fire of London, even dividing the given spaces all in half so he'd have enough room to put as much detail as he wanted. Yet, if I asked him for those details one at a time, he wouldn't be able to regurgitate the answers. 

 

If you truly feel you need to back up, instead of teaching it to her, can you enlist her to help you teach the younger kids? If she can work with the younger ones on math, it will solidify her math facts while still helping her feel her age/not making her feel any less than she does already. Same with language; if she helps you teach the little ones their grammar or spelling or whatever, she's learning and reinforcing those things herself, without feeling like she's dumb. 

 

I know it's impossibly hard, all of this. I'm sorry there are no resources for you over there; I can't imagine doing all this "blind" and without help. Well, I can, we did for a long time, but....I can't imagine never having access to the help we got. Keep reading and talking to us; between all of us, we've likely encountered just about everything and can at least share what worked for us in hopes it might work for you too. 

 

 

[OneStepAtATime]

What others have said....

 

Also, there are ways to "go back to the beginning" without using material for itty bitty kids.    I would suggest you start researching resources that are for remediating with older students.  As for still playing with dolls and play dough at 10, that doesn't seem "quite immature" to me.  Perhaps you see other things that indicate such an assessment.  I trust your judgement as her mother.  I just wanted to point out that lots of girls still value dolls and play dough at 10.  Heck, my mother-in-law still loves dolls and play dough.  :) .  Perhaps your eldest moved into a different stage of her interests at an earlier age so 10 may seem late to you for maintaining those as valuable but honestly it is very normal.  Even my 12 year old was still interested in stuffed animals until this year.

 

Have you read "The Dyslexic Advantage" that OhE mentioned up thread?  It might help your perspective regarding learning challenges and it might help hers if you were to take info from that book and apply it to helping your child really tap into her areas of strength.  They have just as much value as book learning and math lessons, if not more so.

 

FWIW, my husband nearly didn't graduate from High School.  School was always a terrible struggle for him.  He was an undiagnosed dyslexic who also had dysgraphia and other issues that his school system did not recognize as even being diagnosable issues to be addressed.  He is now a very successful engineer.  What helped?  He had gifts that existed not IN SPITE OF his struggles, but because those gifts were on the other side of his neurological coin.  His parents got him involved in whatever held his interest outside of a strictly academic environment, provided a ton of support in those areas, and his school offered a wonderful hands on program for broadcast TV to tie critical skills like reading/writing/math to something tangible, something with purpose.  He got an internship and then a paid job while still in High School.  He has been getting promotions and better jobs every since.

 

I would highly encourage you to work right now to discover, nurture and sustain her areas of interest and her areas of strength.  Spin academics off of those things.  If she really likes Minecraft, use that to help with math/geometry.  Get her some more advanced programming options for learning how to program in Minecraft.  Look at maybe some graphic arts classes.  Anything to help her develop useful skills that tap her areas of strength and her interest areas.  Work on the areas of struggle, yes, but don't make that the primary focus with the other secondary.  

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[MomatHWTK]

I have tried not to pressure her in terms of schoolwork and there have been weeks where we don't get anything done because she completely lacks motivation and it's pointless trying but I can't let that go on forever.

 

I think school definitely left its mark. It destroyed her self confidence and honestly I regret a lot of time that she was there. Even from nursery age, I sent her because that was what was expected (lots of family pressure) she became a selective mute when she was there and they became concerned so I pulled her out. I probably never should have sent her to school in hindsight.

Give yourself permission to put school on hold while you deal with these issues. Then, if you can't find support services, research helping her at home with CBT and other options. Learning to cope with social and emotional issues is part of schooling a SN child.  :grouphug:

[manicmum81]

Well if you get her going with some of her interests and you *validate* them by putting them on the list as part on the list as school work, I think you'll start seeing skills sneak in. For instance, if she's doing Minecraft and programming, is she reading? Is she typing? You can even have that discussion, like hey we need to work on typing but ANY way you improve at typing is cool with me and counts as school. So then you put typing on the list and she does the thing she chose. And you create some ways that work for you two together to benchmark and highlight progress. Like you might say hey maybe try to practice each day 3 minutes on the typing software then do the thing you chose, and any month where you improve your typing speed by at least (pick a number that's really attainable, like 2 or 3) words per minute, you've hit our goal. Kwim?

 

I would definitely take what she's already doing and validate that she IS clever and creative with things. That's what Dyslexic Advantage by the Eides is all about. And say she does have more going on. She STILL has something to give to the world.

 

Kids with disabilities respond well to structure, clear expectations. Does she get dressed every day? Does she have a morning routine? Start with basics like this.

 

The Ronit Bird materials would help you fill in her holes on math, yes. They're very affordable. For reading, see what Orton-Gillingham based programs you have in the UK. For writing, she can do copywork, typing, and oral narration. You said she likes to sculpt? She likes playdough. Well that's cool! My dd loved sculpting too. For my dd, that really really heavy need to do hands-on fizzled out around 7th, iirc. So even though it seems intense, it may pass in a year or two. I would embrace it and roll with it. You could read aloud a story together (history, literature, whatever) and she could sculpt it from playdough or Sculpey or air drying clay or whatever you like. Then she can retell the story, working on getting the major points in, oral narration. You just did school with playdough!

 

Meet her where she is. :)

She can actually type really well now. I don't think she needs a typing programme. She was on a server (special needs one for autistics with her brother) and communicating with others helped her typing skills immensely. It helped my son too. He learned to type well because he was frustrated not being able do communicate with people online quickly.

 

She does lack a proper routine in the day. The other children get dressed everyday, do their hair and teeth etc but she has always been reluctant and have to constantly nag her to do her teeth, change her underwear everyday etc. My 3 year old is better with the daily routine than she is.

 

I think she's aware that people see her using the play doh or sand as babyish. When she asks for it as a gift people always comment, are you sure? Aren't you a bit too old? That sort of thing really doesn't help.

 

I really need to have a good talk with my family about keeping their comments to themselves more.

[manicmum81]

You should be able to get a referral to an NHS speech and language therapist either from your GP or health visitor. It is also possible to make an appointment direct with the speech and language therapy services. My experience is that this is the most accessible route for someone who is not in the school system and, even if issue is not primarily one of speech and language, they have a lot of experience and will often be able to point you in the right direction of what they think the issues are like a poor working memory.

 

We did eventually get a multi-disciplinary assessment through the NHS, but the whole purpose seems to be directed around getting a statutory assessment for special school placement, so it was of no use at all in helping us to help DD. There was certainly no guidance in the way of 'this means that you need to do...'

 

Whatever you manage to achieve in the way of testing, I think you would be better going back to the beginning just like you said. And of course emphasise that this is because of a teaching problem, rather than it being a failure on her part.

I didn't think about Speech and Language. That is a good idea to get into the system. Thanks for that. I agree that here everything is based around school and getting assistance there, and not with what you need to do in day to day life.

 

I tried to explain to her when we first started HS that it wasn't her fault for not knowing things, that she isn't dumb, that the school dropped the ball for not highlighting difficulties earlier so I could help her. I'm definitely starting with the basics again from now on.

[manicmum81]

I really think more than the material, as in what level it is, you need to find what method works for her. Get creative. Seriously.

 

Eliminate the parts that really bog her down/slow her up -- I know you are worried about writing/penmanship, but have her try a chalkboard (lap sized) or dry erase board instead, or get her some good pencil grips. Especially for math; you say one of the things that frustrates her is feeling she *should* be able to do it all in her head --- let her work it out in chalk or dry erase, which leaves no "evidence" behind that she had to do so. Even make a game of it, and get you each a lap sized board to use. You sit down and work the problem at the same time, step by step. She then sees "Hey, mom works things out too..." and is (hopefully) more willing to do so, and it gives her practice without making worse the feeling of inadequacy.

 

Use a journal or basic writing prompts, let her make up stories, find something fun for her to write or story-tell about (whether she writes it, types it, or dictates it to you and you type it). While you're working on her just finding the joy in learning again, don't focus yet on correcting the grammar in every story. Once a week, or every other week, or once a month, choose one and work through the corrections with her. This sort of thing will be just as effective, but far more enjoyable, than a workbook. I did this with both my older boys -- one is currently in college, where he had a perfect GPA this semester, and the other is taking outside classes now for half his school and also making top marks. The college student even had one of his writing assignments saved and used as the class sample by the professor, because it was that good. Yet we never did a formal "grammar workbook" -- we just did these journals and worked on it like I've described.

 

Remove the part that frustrates her, though; if part of the issue might be visual processing, or tracking, or dysgraphia (affects handwriting and other motor skills), then forcing her to physically write *everything* is a bad idea, and even if it isn't dysgraphia, if the physical act of writing makes her performance go down in other areas, then is it really worth it? if she is more cooperative when typing, doing things orally, etc, try that again and see if it helps. You can have her practice penmanship separately, as it's own thing, but if it's part of the problem for her, then remove it from all the places where you can do things w/o her having to physically write. If, after a few months, her performance in those areas doesn't go up, and her penmanship goes down, then you could add it back in, but just as a trial run I would take it out of the equation. Since you can't get evals where you are, trial & error is your best bet to figure out where the problem lies.

 

Try some of the comprehension techniques I mentioned when you do her history, science, read-alouds, etc. Can she find the answer if you give her the question ahead of time and ask her to listen for it? Can she retell a (short) story in her own words, even if she can't answer specific questions? Can she answer if given 2 choices, and get the right one (more often than just by guessing)? This will help you figure out if it's auditory processing, or a language/verbal issue; if the problem is things getting mixed up when she hears them, or if things are getting mixed up when she tries to give the answer.

 

Does she make more mistakes, or fewer mistakes, when she reads something herself and finds the answer vs. when it's read to her? This will help you figure out if it's visual processing or auditory processing that's poorer/more of a concern. If she does better with reading, even though she still makes mistakes, see if she can read aloud to you. Then, have her read the question out loud, and make sure she understands what the question is asking for. Separate her work into small chunks for her; this might take work on your part if the materials aren't ordered (i.e., the questions don't appear in order of how the answers are found in the text). Go through her reading for each day/week, and mark which paragraph holds each answer (a small number in the margin would work). Then, assign her to read (or read aloud), but give the questions to her in the order the answers are found, not the order the questions are listed, and only read until the first question. If she does better orally/being read to, then you know you need to do most of her work out loud, even if she doesn't want to at first.

 

If she can answer a question from the text when you read her the question, then read the portion of the text containing the answer, then repeat the question -- but she can't if you read further -- this could signal poor working memory, meaning she simply can't keep as much information in the "memo" part of her brain at one time as you would think. Can she follow multi-step directions? Can she repeat a string of numbers, forwards and backwards? If you list her a list of items, can she remember all of them? This sort of thing signals a working memory problem, and if that's at play, small chunks is the only way to help her (until/unless you can build that up).

 

Instead of worksheets & quizzes, would you be content to have her make projects? Instead of just answering questions, can she do maps to show the events, a timeline where she colors the figures and places them where they belong? Maybe she creates a drawing, or a poster, build a model, etc., with what she's learned. Can she tell you "three important things" from a story, even if they aren't the things that the questions ask about? Get creative with how you ask for the information. If she likes artistic things, let her use that art in her schoolwork, so it does become something she feels clever about.

 

For the longest time, my son could answer certain questions in one direction, but not the other. For example, maybe he could tell you "What state's capitol is Austin?" but not be able to tell you "What is the state capitol of Texas?" even though the two are flip sides of the same thing. Likewise he still has that issue sometimes with math, and can tell you 9+4=13, but not 13-9=4 without counting it out (or similar). When your daughter has difficulty answering, see if she can get it if you go back and rearrange it/flip it around. I don't know *what* causes this, but it's one thing that makes my son look like he has terrible comprehension. He doesn't....he just needs things rearranged, often. He also can't always answer questions unless we do the small chunks thing....but he drew an entire comic strip about the great fire of London, even dividing the given spaces all in half so he'd have enough room to put as much detail as he wanted. Yet, if I asked him for those details one at a time, he wouldn't be able to regurgitate the answers.

 

If you truly feel you need to back up, instead of teaching it to her, can you enlist her to help you teach the younger kids? If she can work with the younger ones on math, it will solidify her math facts while still helping her feel her age/not making her feel any less than she does already. Same with language; if she helps you teach the little ones their grammar or spelling or whatever, she's learning and reinforcing those things herself, without feeling like she's dumb.

 

I know it's impossibly hard, all of this. I'm sorry there are no resources for you over there; I can't imagine doing all this "blind" and without help. Well, I can, we did for a long time, but....I can't imagine never having access to the help we got. Keep reading and talking to us; between all of us, we've likely encountered just about everything and can at least share what worked for us in hopes it might work for you too.

Thanks for all of your advice. It's a lot to take in but nothing that isn't doable. I have tried some of them briefly but I'm guilty of not giving things long enough to work perhaps.

 

I can relate to the reversal thing in Maths. She can go forward but not always backwards or has to have it explained a different way for it to make sense.

 

I think the workbooks definitely have to go. My son and other daughter seem to cope well with them but obviously DD10 doesn't and I am going to have to get more creative.

 

This has given me a lot to think about.

[manicmum81]

What others have said....

 

Also, there are ways to "go back to the beginning" without using material for itty bitty kids. I would suggest you start researching resources that are for remediating with older students. As for still playing with dolls and play dough at 10, that doesn't seem "quite immature" to me. Perhaps you see other things that indicate such an assessment. I trust your judgement as her mother. I just wanted to point out that lots of girls still value dolls and play dough at 10. Heck, my mother-in-law still loves dolls and play dough. :) . Perhaps your eldest moved into a different stage of her interests at an earlier age so 10 may seem late to you for maintaining those as valuable but honestly it is very normal. Even my 12 year old was still interested in stuffed animals until this year.

 

Have you read "The Dyslexic Advantage" that OhE mentioned up thread? It might help your perspective regarding learning challenges and it might help hers if you were to take info from that book and apply it to helping your child really tap into her areas of strength. They have just as much value as book learning and math lessons, if not more so.

 

FWIW, my husband nearly didn't graduate from High School. School was always a terrible struggle for him. He was an undiagnosed dyslexic who also had dysgraphia and other issues that his school system did not recognize as even being diagnosable issues to be addressed. He is now a very successful engineer. What helped? He had gifts that existed not IN SPITE OF his struggles, but because those gifts were on the other side of his neurological coin. His parents got him involved in whatever held his interest outside of a strictly academic environment, provided a ton of support in those areas, and his school offered a wonderful hands on program for broadcast TV to tie critical skills like reading/writing/math to something tangible, something with purpose. He got an internship and then a paid job while still in High School. He has been getting promotions and better jobs every since.

 

I would highly encourage you to work right now to discover, nurture and sustain her areas of interest and her areas of strength. Spin academics off of those things. If she really likes Minecraft, use that to help with math/geometry. Get her some more advanced programming options for learning how to program in Minecraft. Look at maybe some graphic arts classes. Anything to help her develop useful skills that tap her areas of strength and her interest areas. Work on the areas of struggle, yes, but don't make that the primary focus with the other secondary.

 

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

I suppose she seems immature to me because my eldest was always like a mini adult in comparison and looks like one too (she's 5'5 already) whereas DD10 is a tiny little thing and still seems like a kid. Not to mention that family comment on her liking these things like it's a negative.

 

I know that it's possible to succeed in spite of learning difficulties. If my husband were assessed today I have no doubt he would have some LD. He struggles with written down information but ask him mathematical equations and he can do them in his head, spellings are the same. If DD could do that too I would be less concerned I think.

 

I'm getting loud and clear from everyone that I need to stop focusing on the weaknesses and play to her strengths.

[PeterPan]

She can actually type really well now. I don't think she needs a typing programme. She was on a server (special needs one for autistics with her brother) and communicating with others helped her typing skills immensely. It helped my son too. He learned to type well because he was frustrated not being able do communicate with people online quickly.

 

She does lack a proper routine in the day. The other children get dressed everyday, do their hair and teeth etc but she has always been reluctant and have to constantly nag her to do her teeth, change her underwear everyday etc. My 3 year old is better with the daily routine than she is.

 

I think she's aware that people see her using the play doh or sand as babyish. When she asks for it as a gift people always comment, are you sure? Aren't you a bit too old? That sort of thing really doesn't help.

 

I really need to have a good talk with my family about keeping their comments to themselves more.

 

That's exciting to have some strengths to work with! She's good at typing and maybe she's artistic? She likes to communicate with people with similar interests. Definitely keep looking for these strengths and nurturing them. DA (Dyslexic Advantage) will use some categories like narrative, etc. I know it was such an eye-opening moment for me when I finally realized the *connecting thread* between all my dd's interests. Once we caught that, then it was easier to predict other things she'd be good at and enjoy.

 

Yes, absolutely, it's time to tell the relatives to lay off and shut up. Like I'd just talk with them privately and be blunt that you know she has some SLDs and delays, that she's sensitive about it, and that they can get on board or never see her again.  But I'm blunt. :D Make that mama tiger, protective. But yeah, definitely, it's time.

 

Think about it. You started this thread wondering if it was all in your head, and you've moved from wondering to confirming something is amiss to formulating new plans and a transition to strength-based work and intervention. That's a huge shift! You're going to go through internal shifts that other people (your spouse, family, etc.) aren't aware of yet. You're going to be on a different PLANET from them pretty soon. So you end up needing to bring them along. :)

 

You realize she could have a pretty high IQ under that list of SLDs and social delays and anxiety? You've said nothing that indicates what her IQ is. Even processing speed does not decide IQ, because they'll separate it out when there's a huge discrepancy. I just think it's helpful to ponder how very frustrated she could be.

 

I think if she's 10 and struggling that much basic routines that it's time for visual schedules, written schedules, whatever level of support makes her functional. Does she have an iphone or ipod or ipad? Kindle fire? I'm asking because these things can run apps with timers. I put timers on my ds' kindle fire for EVERYTHING I can. Lunch, meals, appts, routines, you name it, she can have timers. Or investigate together about apps like Cross it Off. It's really personal. It partly depends on how severe the executive function issues are here. What I would probably do is start with just one segment of the day to build routine. Like make one page for JUST the morning routine. And put pictures on it for get dressed, make bed, floor check, take vitamins, eat breakfast, feed dog. Whatever her morning list is, put those 4-5 things on. You and she can make it together and call it school! It IS school! Kids do computers in school all the time. They make powerpoints and do graphics with text bubbles and annotate. You're just teaching her those skills in the context of a very useful project. :D

 

You would flex the schedule method to fit her. Like maybe pictures aren't her speed, but they might be. I would *offer* to start there. Offer it like it's totally ok, like hey I was thinking we could make a schedule to help you be more independent with your morning routine while I'm dealing with the littles. I know you like (japanese comic characters, whatever), so would you like to make it with pictures of that? And if she says yeah, then you've nailed it. Maybe she's into horses and you search google image for pictures of horses doing all the things. That could totally work!  Horses getting dressed, horses eating breakfast, horses getting their floor/stall picked up. This could work! Or rabbits or whatever she's into. And if she just says yuck, let's just print a checklist with words, then you roll that way.

 

If she has a device that runs apps, then research apps and pick one to do that way. I haven't done that with my ds yet. I would probably lean toward printed, but if she's in love with the tech then apps can be good. My ds will delete things when he gets angry, and honestly that is just so frustrating that I'd rather print. You can put it in a page protector and tape to the wall.

 

Visual schedules are a standard suggestion, good practice, for ADHD, for ASD, for anything with executive function issues where people need more support to remember the steps, to know the plan, to stay on the plan. It's good for everyone. :)

 

It sounds like you have a complicated situation. Are the other dc in school, or are you homeschooling them as well?

[PeterPan]

Do they have autism schools in the UK? Usually they take in both the ASD dc *and* NT peer models and siblings. So even if she doesn't need an actual ASD label, she could still benefit from the supports. We have schools like that in our area that blend ASD and peer models. Gives some of those kids in the netherland a place where they fit in. 

[PeterPan]

I suppose she seems immature to me because my eldest was always like a mini adult in comparison and looks like one too (she's 5'5 already) whereas DD10 is a tiny little thing and still seems like a kid. Not to mention that family comment on her liking these things like it's a negative.

 

I know that it's possible to succeed in spite of learning difficulties. If my husband were assessed today I have no doubt he would have some LD. He struggles with written down information but ask him mathematical equations and he can do them in his head, spellings are the same. If DD could do that too I would be less concerned I think.

 

I'm getting loud and clear from everyone that I need to stop focusing on the weaknesses and play to her strengths.

 

Well I'm iffy there. I don't think you're imagining things. If you think she has a social delay compared to her peers, she does. It doesn't mean she's dumb or not sweet or anything else. I just would trust your gut on that. And while I get what people are saying that sometimes kids still do things, there's sort of an intangible about the holdover of the young things that you can't quite put your finger on. You're not crazy.

 

I'm bummed for you that, given all the things you've got going on with your kids, you can't get access to ANY interventions. That's outrageous. Maybe the other poster's ideas will get you access to something.

 

Yes, someone else said drop the grammar book. I would so totally, totally drop things that are just clearly not working. Like what are you supposed to do, keep things failing and flopping forever? Of course you won't. And I find that process very hard. I have to stop, step back, clear my head, take a long walk, pray, and really think about the dc, what would make them feel more empowered, what would help them be more confident and pro-active. And I think you've got a challenging situation, because with her degree of delays and executive function issues she's not going to just become more functional overnight. You have to think about what the NEXT STEP is. Like little baby steps. What would unlock her a little bit? What could you change to help the dynamic a bit? 

 

Sometimes axing even just ONE THING can have a profound difference. Like if that grammar is not working, just drop it. You don't have to revamp everything. Just go put that book behind something or under a box and forget about it for a while. Put something lovely in its place. You can make that change this weekend and go into Monday a little better. And then if that clears the air a little, work on the morning routine. Make small changes. They don't have to be perfect or major to bring improvement.

Edited January 13, 2017 by OhElizabeth

[PeterPan]

For workbook math, I find that using *small* amounts works. Like I buy printable ebooks from Teacher Created Resources. They have things like daily warm-up math. It will have just a half page with maybe 2-3 little problems. Sort of just enough to complement our other things.

 

Totally different direction to consider, depending on her function, would be some life skills math. When you say she needs to do it forwards and then be retaught for backwards (yes?), that can be a generalization issue. My ds does that. So he knows it in one context but not another, etc. 

 

Teachers Pay Teachers This link is to the TPT store of Christine Reeve. She has a WONDERFUL, wonderful, wonderful blog and a super helpful, super affordable TPT store. Here's a link to some of the grade 3-5 math things in her store Teachers Pay Teachers Ooo, it also lists her Structured Work System. I LOVED this!  Her games will give you lots of ideas. She has some really nice grocery store games. She has a next dollar up task card set. And maybe you say oh that doesn't exactly fit her. Well fine, but just looking at it will probably give you ideas. And you might even find some things that are a good fit. Your dd might really enjoy having some developmentally appropriate things (mature but doable) that she can do independently. It's a concept that look at in SN, whether the materials are developmentally appropriate while still being at the academic level the dc needs. 

 

Math « Books | Teacher Created Resources Here are some of the math things at TCR. I've used a LOT from here and love the stuff. Now granted, I have ABA workers in my home working with him to get them done. What I like is the amounts of work are small, creative, witty, and get them thinking. The graphing art books are really fun, and your dd might find them just right! Obviously print the samples and see. For my ds, it took him a while to figure out the pattern that A1 was going to be beside B1, etc. So it's not that they're hard but just that they're hard for kids with disabilities. And of course you're working on coloring, visual perception, etc.

 

Our OT does Easy Drawing Tutorials Homepage with ds. Think about that, you can let her draw from pictures each day and call it school! And maybe you'd like to put on audiobooks while she works.

 

Does she listen to audiobooks each day? If she's not listening to audiobooks each day (at least 1 hour, my opinion), then I would add that into the schedule and see if you can get that going. Ben Foss has videos on ear reading. I think it's very important to validate ear reading as worthwhile, and it's important that it get DONE to build our kids' vocabulary and language skills. It's also their best way to access information. 

 

Besides, she needs literature. You can nail history, literature, etc. with audiobooks. It's school, even if she likes it, lol.

[manicmum81]

That's exciting to have some strengths to work with! She's good at typing and maybe she's artistic? She likes to communicate with people with similar interests. Definitely keep looking for these strengths and nurturing them. DA (Dyslexic Advantage) will use some categories like narrative, etc. I know it was such an eye-opening moment for me when I finally realized the *connecting thread* between all my dd's interests. Once we caught that, then it was easier to predict other things she'd be good at and enjoy.

 

Yes, absolutely, it's time to tell the relatives to lay off and shut up. Like I'd just talk with them privately and be blunt that you know she has some SLDs and delays, that she's sensitive about it, and that they can get on board or never see her again. But I'm blunt. :D Make that mama tiger, protective. But yeah, definitely, it's time.

 

Think about it. You started this thread wondering if it was all in your head, and you've moved from wondering to confirming something is amiss to formulating new plans and a transition to strength-based work and intervention. That's a huge shift! You're going to go through internal shifts that other people (your spouse, family, etc.) aren't aware of yet. You're going to be on a different PLANET from them pretty soon. So you end up needing to bring them along. :)

 

You realize she could have a pretty high IQ under that list of SLDs and social delays and anxiety? You've said nothing that indicates what her IQ is. Even processing speed does not decide IQ, because they'll separate it out when there's a huge discrepancy. I just think it's helpful to ponder how very frustrated she could be.

 

I think if she's 10 and struggling that much basic routines that it's time for visual schedules, written schedules, whatever level of support makes her functional. Does she have an iphone or ipod or ipad? Kindle fire? I'm asking because these things can run apps with timers. I put timers on my ds' kindle fire for EVERYTHING I can. Lunch, meals, appts, routines, you name it, she can have timers. Or investigate together about apps like Cross it Off. It's really personal. It partly depends on how severe the executive function issues are here. What I would probably do is start with just one segment of the day to build routine. Like make one page for JUST the morning routine. And put pictures on it for get dressed, make bed, floor check, take vitamins, eat breakfast, feed dog. Whatever her morning list is, put those 4-5 things on. You and she can make it together and call it school! It IS school! Kids do computers in school all the time. They make powerpoints and do graphics with text bubbles and annotate. You're just teaching her those skills in the context of a very useful project. :D

 

You would flex the schedule method to fit her. Like maybe pictures aren't her speed, but they might be. I would *offer* to start there. Offer it like it's totally ok, like hey I was thinking we could make a schedule to help you be more independent with your morning routine while I'm dealing with the littles. I know you like (japanese comic characters, whatever), so would you like to make it with pictures of that? And if she says yeah, then you've nailed it. Maybe she's into horses and you search google image for pictures of horses doing all the things. That could totally work! Horses getting dressed, horses eating breakfast, horses getting their floor/stall picked up. This could work! Or rabbits or whatever she's into. And if she just says yuck, let's just print a checklist with words, then you roll that way.

 

If she has a device that runs apps, then research apps and pick one to do that way. I haven't done that with my ds yet. I would probably lean toward printed, but if she's in love with the tech then apps can be good. My ds will delete things when he gets angry, and honestly that is just so frustrating that I'd rather print. You can put it in a page protector and tape to the wall.

 

Visual schedules are a standard suggestion, good practice, for ADHD, for ASD, for anything with executive function issues where people need more support to remember the steps, to know the plan, to stay on the plan. It's good for everyone. :)

 

It sounds like you have a complicated situation. Are the other dc in school, or are you homeschooling them as well?

I currently have three at home, three at school full time, plus two under 5s.

 

I had a long talk with hubby last night as I have been wanting to bring the others out of school for quite some time. I'm not happy with the school they are at, they are very lacklustre when you have kids with any additional needs. My kids seem kind of burnt out with school. They complain daily about going, I get tears and tantrums and begging to be homeschooled but I have been waiting until hubby was completely on board with the idea. He now says he's fine with them all at home so I had a mini celebration yesterday.

 

Thanks again for all your suggestions. I have a lot of plans floating around in my head now lol.

[manicmum81]

Do they have autism schools in the UK? Usually they take in both the ASD dc *and* NT peer models and siblings. So even if she doesn't need an actual ASD label, she could still benefit from the supports. We have schools like that in our area that blend ASD and peer models. Gives some of those kids in the netherland a place where they fit in.

Special schools are extremely rare. We have special needs units within mainstream schools sometimes but you only get into those if you have profound learning difficulties and behavioural problems. Even my son who has an ASD diagnosis could not get into one because his needs were not extreme enough.

[manicmum81]

For workbook math, I find that using *small* amounts works. Like I buy printable ebooks from Teacher Created Resources. They have things like daily warm-up math. It will have just a half page with maybe 2-3 little problems. Sort of just enough to complement our other things.

 

Totally different direction to consider, depending on her function, would be some life skills math. When you say she needs to do it forwards and then be retaught for backwards (yes?), that can be a generalization issue. My ds does that. So he knows it in one context but not another, etc.

 

Teachers Pay Teachers This link is to the TPT store of Christine Reeve. She has a WONDERFUL, wonderful, wonderful blog and a super helpful, super affordable TPT store. Here's a link to some of the grade 3-5 math things in her store Teachers Pay Teachers Ooo, it also lists her Structured Work System. I LOVED this! Her games will give you lots of ideas. She has some really nice grocery store games. She has a next dollar up task card set. And maybe you say oh that doesn't exactly fit her. Well fine, but just looking at it will probably give you ideas. And you might even find some things that are a good fit. Your dd might really enjoy having some developmentally appropriate things (mature but doable) that she can do independently. It's a concept that look at in SN, whether the materials are developmentally appropriate while still being at the academic level the dc needs.

 

Math « Books | Teacher Created Resources Here are some of the math things at TCR. I've used a LOT from here and love the stuff. Now granted, I have ABA workers in my home working with him to get them done. What I like is the amounts of work are small, creative, witty, and get them thinking. The graphing art books are really fun, and your dd might find them just right! Obviously print the samples and see. For my ds, it took him a while to figure out the pattern that A1 was going to be beside B1, etc. So it's not that they're hard but just that they're hard for kids with disabilities. And of course you're working on coloring, visual perception, etc.

 

Our OT does Easy Drawing Tutorials Homepage with ds. Think about that, you can let her draw from pictures each day and call it school! And maybe you'd like to put on audiobooks while she works.

 

Does she listen to audiobooks each day? If she's not listening to audiobooks each day (at least 1 hour, my opinion), then I would add that into the schedule and see if you can get that going. Ben Foss has videos on ear reading. I think it's very important to validate ear reading as worthwhile, and it's important that it get DONE to build our kids' vocabulary and language skills. It's also their best way to access information.

 

Besides, she needs literature. You can nail history, literature, etc. with audiobooks. It's school, even if she likes it, lol.

I shall take a look at your recommendations .

 

She doesn't listen to audiobooks. I have suggested it in the past but she wasn't too enthused.

 

She doesn't like doing too much in one go. She's the type that wants to quit after a page of something which I always took as laziness. I guess I need to adjust how I view things and accept less as more.

[OneStepAtATime]

I shall take a look at your recommendations .

 

She doesn't listen to audiobooks. I have suggested it in the past but she wasn't too enthused.

 

She doesn't like doing too much in one go. She's the type that wants to quit after a page of something which I always took as laziness. I guess I need to adjust how I view things and accept less as more.

FWIW, my daughter (who is in High School) needs frequent breaks.  She learns more, retains better, if she can focus for maybe 20-25 minutes, take a short break to rest her eyes/brain and move around a bit, then return to get more done.  She is dyslexic, dyscalculic, has low processing speed, developmental vision issues and is highly visual/spatial so learns better from interacting with physical things than staring at print on a page.

 

Example:  Science class in 5th grade, her teacher gave out tons of worksheets regarding some sort of microbiology lessons.  DD retained nothing.  Literally nothing.  It wasn't sticking at all.  I had a meeting with the teacher.  The teacher allowed her to recreate the creatures they were learning about with play dough.  DD studied the parts using books with pictures, videos, plus those worksheets then brought her creations to class and gave a presentation.  The play dough sections were color coded (we were lucky that Play dough had had some sort of sale on the huge box of little colored Play doughs that represented a TON of colors) and could be separated to see the insides of the creatures.  They were really pretty clever.  She learned the material well, it stuck long term, and she did better on the test than all but one classmate.

[manicmum81]

FWIW, my daughter (who is in High School) needs frequent breaks. She learns more, retains better, if she can focus for maybe 20-25 minutes, take a short break to rest her eyes/brain and move around a bit, then return to get more done. She is dyslexic, dyscalculic, has low processing speed, developmental vision issues and is highly visual/spatial so learns better from interacting with physical things than staring at print on a page.

 

Example: Science class in 5th grade, her teacher gave out tons of worksheets regarding some sort of microbiology lessons. DD retained nothing. Literally nothing. It wasn't sticking at all. I had a meeting with the teacher. The teacher allowed her to recreate the creatures they were learning about with play dough. DD studied the parts using books with pictures, videos, plus those worksheets then brought her creations to class and gave a presentation. The play dough sections were color coded (we were lucky that Play dough had had some sort of sale on the huge box of little colored Play doughs that represented a TON of colors) and could be separated to see the insides of the creatures. They were really pretty clever. She learned the material well, it stuck long term, and she did better on the test than all but one classmate.

I think the easiest way to do things from now on is to approach DD10 the same as I do my ASD son who I make work for shorter periods of time as he loses focus and gets 'twitchy' if I make him sit still for too long.

 

I usually teach all three together but now I think I will separate her from the other two as I'm going to have to change so much in how we do things .

[Kanin]

:grouphug: I hope you're feeling better after reading this forum. Everyone here has been through/is going through challenging times!

 

You might want to go minimalist for the rest of the year while you figure out what works best for your daughter. Shorter periods of work, shorter, more simple assignments, etc. You could even include chores/morning routine as part of school, and praise the heck out of her for doing them.

 

I would go back and find out what she can do easily, and then work from there. You could tell her that you and she need to find her "comfort zone" so you can give her work that's just right for her. She could even rate assignments as easy, medium, and hard after she completes them.

 

If it were me, I'd also think about what someone truly needs to know. For example, does she really need to be able to identify a preposition at age 10, or would consistently capitalizing the first letter of a sentence, and using punctuation at the end, be the most important thing right now? I'm sure there are lots of adults who forget what a preposition is, but they get along just fine. I'm not saying she'll never be able to handle English grammar, just that it might not be the most important fight right now. You want her to feel GOOD, smart, empowered. She won't be willing to work hard until she feels like she is in control.

 

I just read an article that included a hierarchy of writing skills. The first one was accurate copying, the next was something like writing a sentence based on a picture, then writing a sentence about a topic without a picture, etc. I'll try to figure out how to share it with everyone... it's made me realize that I was asking too much of a particular student. I was asking her to read a short book for homework and write down three things that happened in it. To me, it was an easy assignment. Just write three things - anything! Her work was always a horrible mess, and even though we talked about it every day, it didn't improve. Last week I started putting 3 sticky notes on pictures in the book, and telling her to write a sentence about each picture. Her worked improved immensely. I think that reading, trying to think of what happened, then trying to spell and punctuate and all the rest was just too much for her at this point. Anyway - I'll try to upload the list in hopes that it will help someone else!

 

Also, I second the suggestion to frame the re-boot as a teaching issue, not a student issue, even though it is NOT your fault either! She just needs to believe that she's doing fine and it's all about mom, just for self-confidence :)

 

p.s.

Easier work feeling babyish is hard. High Noon Books has high interest, low readability books that are amazingly awesome. They are actually interesting, too! They have lots for both kids and teens. There is sure to be something on their website that would interest your daughter.

Edited January 14, 2017 by Mainer

[MistyMountain]

I agree it sounds like she has learning issues going on. If you cannot get evaluations where you live then I agree with the advice to just assume she has things she displays symptoms of and just intervene for them. Comprehension is something different from dyslexia. Dyslexia can cause comprehension difficulties but more because the decoding is so poor and takes so much effort. I have one child with difficulties with comprehension and she is definitely not dyslexic and my child who had dyslexia type quirks comprehends really well.

 

Off topic but the prices in OhEs area are MUCH lower then in mine for the neuropsychologist, simple screenings, vision evaluations with a COVD etc. I wish I lived where health care cost less and some of this was covered.

Edited January 14, 2017 by MistyMountain

[PeterPan]

I shall take a look at your recommendations .

 

She doesn't listen to audiobooks. I have suggested it in the past but she wasn't too enthused.

 

She doesn't like doing too much in one go. She's the type that wants to quit after a page of something which I always took as laziness. I guess I need to adjust how I view things and accept less as more.

 

I doubt she's lazy, because she was so pro-active in pursuing other interests! To me, her pushback is telling you a disability that hasn't been diagnosed is affecting her. Since dyslexia would NOT cause that, we posit it has to be something else. That's why I keep mentioning (strongly suggesting) a hearing eval or speech language eval or both. Given that you already see social delays, it's not unreasonable to think she has language delays as well. An SLP can run language testing to look at her language and see if she needs intervention. Delayed language skills could DRAMATICALLY affect her ability to enjoy read alouds.

 

Other explanations are hearing loss, CAPD (dichotic listening, trouble distinguishing with background noise), etc. But, given the social delays and siblings with autism, I'm going with language delays. 

 

Language delays are surprisingly easy to intervene on, and you might get improvement in 1-2 months with use of simple materials. With my ds, I used The Grammar Processing Program | Product Info  If you get SLP testing, they can help you target what you need to work on. It's not really rocket science and doesn't have to be terribly expensive or require tons of visits for therapies. If you get the evals and can figure out what areas you need to target, you can find materials on TPT, on Super Duper, etc., and do the work yourself. Frankly, ALL your kids may benefit from it. Anyone with autism or social delays may also have language delays and benefit from the intervention. 

[PeterPan]

I think the easiest way to do things from now on is to approach DD10 the same as I do my ASD son who I make work for shorter periods of time as he loses focus and gets 'twitchy' if I make him sit still for too long.

 

I usually teach all three together but now I think I will separate her from the other two as I'm going to have to change so much in how we do things .

 

Yes, my dd with ADHD has the attention issues and takes breaks. Other strategies include lists, a limited distraction environment (not at the table with siblings! a private office or cubicle), earbuds with calming music to listen to while she works, etc.

 

My ds has ADHD-combined type as part of his mix, and he can actually work for long periods of time. He just then needs to MOVE. For him we have an office with divided spaces, so he gets the idea that we're still here to work, even when we're taking a break, but that we can work, break, work, etc. And his breaks are always heavy on sensory input and motion.

[PeterPan]

Yes, it's splitting hairs, but you're looking at comprehension problems with audiobooks vs. comprehension with reading. Our np tests everyone with SLDs for language, and it is common to see some effect on language acquisition and a drop as the kids with SLDs age, because they aren't getting as much input (visual or auditory) as kids who are reading. But just in general, a dyslexic dc *ought* to be fine with audiobooks. They ought not to be shying away. That's really, really concerning to me, because that's not going to improve by forcing more audiobooks or read alouds. 

 

Language testing can distinguish the areas of the delay (expressive, receptive, vocabulary, etc. etc.). I just think you need an explanation there. An SLP eval, by itself, would be dramatically less than a full psych eval. In the US it's usually easy to get an SLP eval called medical and covered by insurance, where they might deny the psych eval saying it's academic. (Unless there's ADHD, then they call it medical again, lol.)  

 

Honestly, when I was looking at K5 with my ds, I was so flabbergasted I told my dh I COULD NOT teach him without evals. Like I'm not saying blow the bank and do what you can't afford, but if you can make *just* the SLP eval or a hearing screening happen, that could be really, really insightful. Dyslexia, sure you can assume. ADHD, etc. you can assume. But you don't have any explanation for the language, and language underlies EVERYTHING you're trying to do with her. 

[manicmum81]

:grouphug: I hope you're feeling better after reading this forum. Everyone here has been through/is going through challenging times!

 

You might want to go minimalist for the rest of the year while you figure out what works best for your daughter. Shorter periods of work, shorter, more simple assignments, etc. You could even include chores/morning routine as part of school, and praise the heck out of her for doing them.

 

I would go back and find out what she can do easily, and then work from there. You could tell her that you and she need to find her "comfort zone" so you can give her work that's just right for her. She could even rate assignments as easy, medium, and hard after she completes them.

 

If it were me, I'd also think about what someone truly needs to know. For example, does she really need to be able to identify a preposition at age 10, or would consistently capitalizing the first letter of a sentence, and using punctuation at the end, be the most important thing right now? I'm sure there are lots of adults who forget what a preposition is, but they get along just fine. I'm not saying she'll never be able to handle English grammar, just that it might not be the most important fight right now. You want her to feel GOOD, smart, empowered. She won't be willing to work hard until she feels like she is in control.

 

I just read an article that included a hierarchy of writing skills. The first one was accurate copying, the next was something like writing a sentence based on a picture, then writing a sentence about a topic without a picture, etc. I'll try to figure out how to share it with everyone... it's made me realize that I was asking too much of a particular student. I was asking her to read a short book for homework and write down three things that happened in it. To me, it was an easy assignment. Just write three things - anything! Her work was always a horrible mess, and even though we talked about it every day, it didn't improve. Last week I started putting 3 sticky notes on pictures in the book, and telling her to write a sentence about each picture. Her worked improved immensely. I think that reading, trying to think of what happened, then trying to spell and punctuate and all the rest was just too much for her at this point. Anyway - I'll try to upload the list in hopes that it will help someone else!

 

Also, I second the suggestion to frame the re-boot as a teaching issue, not a student issue, even though it is NOT your fault either! She just needs to believe that she's doing fine and it's all about mom, just for self-confidence :)

 

p.s.

Easier work feeling babyish is hard. High Noon Books has high interest, low readability books that are amazingly awesome. They are actually interesting, too! They have lots for both kids and teens. There is sure to be something on their website that would interest your daughter.

 

Yes I do feel much better since I first posted. It's made me see things from a new perspective. I think even when I thought I wasn't expecting too much from DD, I probably still was. I didn't like giving her work that I felt was too young for her because it felt like giving things that were simple wasn't challenging her but now I see that it might have helped her gain confidence in her abilities.

 

I understand that there are lots of things that they don't necessarily NEED to know at this age, however, for a time she was talking about wanting to go back to school within the next year and I was panicking that she would in no way be able to cope if she wasn't following the National Curriculum but we have since discussed it and she agreed that she isn't ready to go back.

 

Since I will be starting afresh in a way with bringing the other children out of school too, it will be easier to convince her that the change in approach isn't related to her.

[manicmum81]

I agree it sounds like she has learning issues going on. If you cannot get evaluations where you live then I agree with the advice to just assume she has things she displays symptoms of and just intervene for them. Comprehension is something different from dyslexia. Dyslexia can cause comprehension difficulties but more because the decoding is so poor and takes so much effort. I have one child with difficulties with comprehension and she is definitely not dyslexic and my child who had dyslexia type quirks comprehends really well.

 

Off topic but the prices in OhEs area are MUCH lower then in mine for the neuropsychologist, simple screenings, vision evaluations with a COVD etc. I wish I lived where health care cost less and some of this was covered.

 

To be honest, comprehension difficulty is a recurring theme within most, if not all, of my children. They have a tendency to be very literal.

[manicmum81]

I doubt she's lazy, because she was so pro-active in pursuing other interests! To me, her pushback is telling you a disability that hasn't been diagnosed is affecting her. Since dyslexia would NOT cause that, we posit it has to be something else. That's why I keep mentioning (strongly suggesting) a hearing eval or speech language eval or both. Given that you already see social delays, it's not unreasonable to think she has language delays as well. An SLP can run language testing to look at her language and see if she needs intervention. Delayed language skills could DRAMATICALLY affect her ability to enjoy read alouds.

 

Other explanations are hearing loss, CAPD (dichotic listening, trouble distinguishing with background noise), etc. But, given the social delays and siblings with autism, I'm going with language delays. 

 

Language delays are surprisingly easy to intervene on, and you might get improvement in 1-2 months with use of simple materials. With my ds, I used The Grammar Processing Program | Product Info  If you get SLP testing, they can help you target what you need to work on. It's not really rocket science and doesn't have to be terribly expensive or require tons of visits for therapies. If you get the evals and can figure out what areas you need to target, you can find materials on TPT, on Super Duper, etc., and do the work yourself. Frankly, ALL your kids may benefit from it. Anyone with autism or social delays may also have language delays and benefit from the intervention. 

 

I have had two other children who had Speech & Language intervention when they were younger - DD7 which it turned out had glue ear in both ears and had grommits put in, she still doesn't hear great but her speech is fine now, although she tends to talk too fast. Also, DS8 who now speaks very eloquently. 

 

Where I am, they seemed to focus more on younger children and they didn't seem to offer much more than ensuring the children could speak clearly. I honestly don't know where I could get referred that would offer a more indepth assessment. 

[manicmum81]

Yes, my dd with ADHD has the attention issues and takes breaks. Other strategies include lists, a limited distraction environment (not at the table with siblings! a private office or cubicle), earbuds with calming music to listen to while she works, etc.

 

My ds has ADHD-combined type as part of his mix, and he can actually work for long periods of time. He just then needs to MOVE. For him we have an office with divided spaces, so he gets the idea that we're still here to work, even when we're taking a break, but that we can work, break, work, etc. And his breaks are always heavy on sensory input and motion.

 

I think I shall implement a routine that involves a lot of rotating of children as I have a few that will require repeated breaks.

[manicmum81]

Yes, it's splitting hairs, but you're looking at comprehension problems with audiobooks vs. comprehension with reading. Our np tests everyone with SLDs for language, and it is common to see some effect on language acquisition and a drop as the kids with SLDs age, because they aren't getting as much input (visual or auditory) as kids who are reading. But just in general, a dyslexic dc *ought* to be fine with audiobooks. They ought not to be shying away. That's really, really concerning to me, because that's not going to improve by forcing more audiobooks or read alouds. 

 

Language testing can distinguish the areas of the delay (expressive, receptive, vocabulary, etc. etc.). I just think you need an explanation there. An SLP eval, by itself, would be dramatically less than a full psych eval. In the US it's usually easy to get an SLP eval called medical and covered by insurance, where they might deny the psych eval saying it's academic. (Unless there's ADHD, then they call it medical again, lol.)  

 

Honestly, when I was looking at K5 with my ds, I was so flabbergasted I told my dh I COULD NOT teach him without evals. Like I'm not saying blow the bank and do what you can't afford, but if you can make *just* the SLP eval or a hearing screening happen, that could be really, really insightful. Dyslexia, sure you can assume. ADHD, etc. you can assume. But you don't have any explanation for the language, and language underlies EVERYTHING you're trying to do with her. 

 

I don't know how I would get anything other than a basic hearing test done. It's all any of my children have had.

 

As I said before, I have found previous Speech & Language assessments very limited and I wouldn't know how to go about getting a more involved evaluation.

 

Audiobooks aren't something that I have ever properly introduced to the children. Personally, I don't like them, I'm an avid book reader and don't really like the idea or someone else's voice in my head painting the picture for me but I know a lot of people enjoy them, and I had brought the idea up but DD never actually listen to one. I think I will try to get her to try one and see if she changes her mind.

 

Going the private route for evaluations/assessments is something I am reluctant to do as I have more than one child that may need them in all honesty, I don't think I could afford to do all that I would need to do.

[OneStepAtATime]

I am routing for you!  :)  So glad you are feeling better about things and have some ideas for a way to revamp things.

 

When I first started posting here after I took the kids out of school the wonderful people on this sub-forum were a gift (and still are).  They helped me so much.  Even when some specific suggestions perhaps weren't actually helpful for my particular situation, even those suggestions helped me to see there were other ways to approach our issues and for me to feel less alone.  There are other people going through a similar journey.  Pooling our knowledge and resources, combining our efforts, can have a more profound and positive effect on our lives than a lot of the "professional" advice that is out there.

[manicmum81]

I am routing for you!   :)  So glad you are feeling better about things and have some ideas for a way to revamp things.

 

When I first started posting here after I took the kids out of school the wonderful people on this sub-forum were a gift (and still are).  They helped me so much.  Even when some specific suggestions perhaps weren't actually helpful for my particular situation, even those suggestions helped me to see there were other ways to approach our issues and for me to feel less alone.  There are other people going through a similar journey.  Pooling our knowledge and resources, combining our efforts, can have a more profound and positive effect on our lives than a lot of the "professional" advice that is out there.

 

Thanks. Last year was a tough year. I had concerns and difficulties with my children both in and out of school but felt like I was getting nowhere with anything. This year I had made a promise to myself to get everything sorted out for everyone.

 

Onwards and upwards!

[OneStepAtATime]

Thanks. Last year was a tough year. I had concerns and difficulties with my children both in and out of school but felt like I was getting nowhere with anything. This year I had made a promise to myself to get everything sorted out for everyone.

 

Onwards and upwards!

:hurray:  :hurray:  :hurray:

 

Just remember, you are not alone.  Come here if you feel you need to vent or you feel people aren't understanding what you are saying or you need a brainstorming session or whatever.  Sometimes we can be blunt but we really are trying to help.  :)

[manicmum81]

:hurray:  :hurray:  :hurray:

 

Just remember, you are not alone.  Come here if you feel you need to vent or you feel people aren't understanding what you are saying or you need a brainstorming session or whatever.  Sometimes we can be blunt but we really are trying to help.   :)

 

Thank you.

 

It's hard to find people in RL to talk to about things especially because my family are pretty against homeschooling and my mother seems to think that schools have all the answers even though she has seen firsthand how much difficulty I had with getting DS11 the help he needed (she went to a lot of the school meetings).