Why do many Americans hold their pens incorrectly?

[Kathleen.]

This is all a little silly. One could say the same of table manners. Americans have a certain set of rules for utensils and acceptable behavior at the table while other parts of the world have their own standards.

[Fast_and_Curious]

You can see it differently, of course, but as others have pointed out, there is more than one accepted "correct" way.  It's all preferences.

 

Whether one even opts for a "correct" way or not is a preference.  There's nothing illegal, immoral, or unethical about choosing what one prefers for gripping a pen/pencil.

 

Of course there is nothing illegal or immoral about it. You can hold your pencil any way you want. However, in many places you may be considered uneducated, illiterate or even uncultured if you hold it in a very non-standard way. In another forum about this topic, people were commenting about Americans' strange habits and lack of good penmanship. Someone showed a picture of the particular way he/she holds the pen and it was pressed by index and middle fingers while the thumb was wrapped around these. A person from Germany said that, if people there saw someone hold their pencil like that, they would immediately assume that this person has Down Syndrome or something like that.

[Kathleen.]

Many of us are American - why are you pressing this point?

[Guest]

Ay yi yi. I'm stepping out of this conversation now. I'm overwhelmed with insults, condescension, and hubris.

[creekland]

I don't think that is good thinking. I think it would be sad to let the art of penmanship die. Of course, keyboards make things much easier, but they can never replace our hands, just as computers can never replace our brains.

 

I don't think folks will ever stop writing, but it's definitely needed far less than it used to be.

 

I see it a bit more like automobiles or even bicycles replacing horses as our main mode of transportation.

 

My kids are fortunate enough to still know how to handle horses (since we raise ponies).  They even know my "right" way to do things along with ways others consider to be options.  ;)  But I don't expect everyone to have to know that in this day and age.  It's a niche now, esp in first world countries.

 

Mine definitely know how to type and create PowerPoint (and similar) presentations.  They even know how to use Smart Phones and Google.  Those are far more useful in the modern world.

 

I still don't care how they hold a pen or pencil.  Their writing is very readable and they have no hand health issues from writing.  That's what counts IMO.

 

To each our own.  We all pick the things we care about (or don't).  

 

You asked why many Americans don't use your method of holding pencils... plenty of us have given you our reasons.  You don't have to change or adopt our reasoning, but it would be nice if you stopped insisting yours was the only right way to see things.  It isn't.  Your way is important to you.  We get that.  We don't have to adopt it as our own.  Readers can if they wish, of course.

[maize]

Here is a rather interesting report on pencil grip research:

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.doria.fi/bitstream/handle/10024/4108/TMP.objres.23.pdf%3Fsequence&ved=0ahUKEwibksyA89rPAhXH6YMKHf4uDT0QFggbMAA&usg=AFQjCNFduURQIBVlir00549WUpUbtkhu8w&sig2=IY1ufD1FOyUhNnSnFnfwpQ

 

The conclusion does not support the traditional tripod grip as overall better than a number of other grips.

[Fast_and_Curious]

It is not my thinking - in my area (in California) most private schools and public schools begin allowing students to use keyboards to type in assignments at 5th grade or before. The percentage of work done on computers goes up as the student moves towards high school - and there is a lot of emphasis on reducing paper usage and going greener. The students are given the choice to use a computer to write in or not - most are even provided chrome books by their schools to write their assignments in. Many high schoolers use iPads and apps like Evernote and OneNote to not only take notes, but to add pictures of the whiteboard, voice recordings of the teacher etc when they write. A lot of the standardized tests are taken on the computer. These schools also use things like Khan Academy and Brain Pop for educating their students though a computer can never replace a teacher in a school (though I heard of a pilot project locally that is using a "Flipped Classroom" model where students learn online from a pre-recorded teacher at home ). So, keyboards are replacing penmanship where I am at. 

Penmanship is stressed a lot in the early elementary years only.

 

All those things are very useful and, of course, we should also pursue computer literacy and use all the advantages of modern technology. Still, it would be a mistake to let the humanity forget how to write by hand only because we are technologically developed enough to rarely need it. Also, replacing every human factor with a machine seems so cold and impersonal.

[creekland]

Of course there is nothing illegal or immoral about it. You can hold your pencil any way you want. However, in many places you may be considered uneducated, illiterate or even uncultured if you hold it in a very non-standard way. In another forum about this topic, people were commenting about Americans' strange habits and lack of good penmanship. Someone showed a picture of the particular way he/she holds the pen and it was pressed by index and middle fingers while the thumb was wrapped around these. A person from Germany said that, if people there saw someone hold their pencil like that, they would immediately assume that this person has Down Syndrome or something like that.

 

Look at the bottom red quote in my signature line - the one that starts, "The older I get..."   :lol:

 

You can probably guess at the way you are being thought of due to your insistence upon your stance.  ;)  Having your preference and even asking about it is one thing - nothing wrong there.  Looking down upon others who disagree with you is a whole different ballgame.

 

But I'm done playing on here for now.  I have bedrooms that are soon to be occupied so I need to evict some dust bunnies first.  

[Fast_and_Curious]

Many of us are American - why are you pressing this point?

 

Precisely because I wanted to hear the opinion of Americans and find out what their children are actually taught in school. I have done quite a bit of my own observation and comparison, read a few professional studies about this topic, as well as heard the ordinary people's opinions. Then I specifically wanted to find an American forum about education to ask this question directly.

[Fast_and_Curious]

I don't think folks will ever stop writing, but it's definitely needed far less than it used to be.

 

I see it a bit more like automobiles or even bicycles replacing horses as our main mode of transportation.

 

 

Of course, but whether we use horses, cars, airplanes, space ships or some other, more advanced mean of transportation they will invent in 100 years, we still have to learn how to walk and actually use our own legs. Same goes for handwriting.

[maize]

Of course there is nothing illegal or immoral about it. You can hold your pencil any way you want. However, in many places you may be considered uneducated, illiterate or even uncultured if you hold it in a very non-standard way. In another forum about this topic, people were commenting about Americans' strange habits and lack of good penmanship. Someone showed a picture of the particular way he/she holds the pen and it was pressed by index and middle fingers while the thumb was wrapped around these. A person from Germany said that, if people there saw someone hold their pencil like that, they would immediately assume that this person has Down Syndrome or something like that.

The research report I referenced above includes several variations of thumb wrap grips among the pencil grips that showed the best results. Right up there with your preferred tripod grip.

[Fast_and_Curious]

Look at the bottom red quote in my signature line - the one that starts, "The older I get..."   :lol:

 

You can probably guess at the way you are being thought of due to your insistence upon your stance.   ;)  Having your preference and even asking about it is one thing - nothing wrong there.  Looking down upon others who disagree with you is a whole different ballgame.

 

But I'm done playing on here for now.  I have bedrooms that are soon to be occupied so I need to evict some dust bunnies first.  

 

I don't look down upon anyone. I personally don't have any prejudices. I just observe, investigate, ask and reach conclusions. I asked this question because it seemed that this issue is not given as much importance in America as it is in other places. I wanted to ask if that is true, and if so, why. I agree that the way this person in the other forum described things was not very nice, but the reality is that people tend to judge.

[maize]

I don't look down upon anyone. I personally don't have any prejudices. I just observe, investigate, ask and reach conclusions. I asked this question because it seemed that this issue is not given as much importance in America as it is in other places. I wanted to ask if that is true, and if so, why. I agree that the way this person in the other forum described things was not very nice, but the reality is that people tend to judge.

An alternative view is that American educators have looked past tradition to examine scientifically conducted studies, and have determined that tradition is not entirely correct when it comes to the importance of using one specific writing grip.

[creekland]

Precisely because I wanted to hear the opinion of Americans and find out what their children are actually taught in school. I have done quite a bit of my own observation and comparison, read a few professional studies about this topic, as well as heard the ordinary people's opinions. Then I specifically wanted to find an American forum about education to ask this question directly.

 

If you really want to see how "uncultured" Americans are, perhaps someone can provide you with a link to the thread we had not long ago about eating with our hands.   :lol:

 

I'd find it for you, but I just gave the dust bunnies a chance to run and hide while I came back down here to type.  It was what my brain naturally moved on to while doing mundane work (all while chuckling, of course).  It was worth a short break to make the suggestion.  It's not worth explaining to my boy why he has to vacuum, then make his own bed.  His mama still provides some guest services while he is here on break even if he would have done those chores himself if he were still living here...

[Fast_and_Curious]

And now I am going to call shenanagins on that.

 

I have literally never in my entire life examined the way another adult holds their pencil.  I have watched uncounted numbers of people of all sorts of varying ethnicities write checks in front of me while working in various retail positions....never ever once have I ever paid any attention to the pencil grip of a single one.   And given that this is the first time I have ever in my entire life heard of anyone ever commenting on the pencil grip of another adult, I am quite confident that the vast majority of people neither notice nor care how people hold their pencil, and certainly don't assume people are "uneducated" or "illiterate" or some other such nonsense.  That is really one of the silliest things I have ever heard. 

 

Admittedly, I never used to pay attention to the way people hold their pencils either, but I think I had a subconscious picture of what a "normal" hand holding a pencil should look like, so when I saw that a lot of Americans deviate from this standard, I noticed that. Then I started comparing, just out of curiosity. Also, people do notice these things, because I once (in high school) injured my hand and couldn't hold my pencil properly, but still had to do some project we were working on. My parents' friends (a husband and wife) were visiting us and the guy commented on the way I was holding my pencil.

Edited October 14, 2016 by Fast_and_Curious

[Kathleen.]

So, not to belabor this conversation, but out if curiosity I just emailed a friend of mine from Chinato get her opinion. She said that's what she loves about America, you can do whatever you want and there's no one there to say your wrong or bad. And she also said she thinks Americans focus more on creativity and are less bothered by rules.

[Fast_and_Curious]

Except, there isn't one standard way to form letters.  Even if we don't get into the various "fonts" used by different people...

 

There are three basic standard forms that I am aware of- printing, cursive, and calligraphy. 

 

Of course. I have also noticed that different generations where I live were taught to write particular letters differently, especially the lower-case cursive "b" and "p", for example. In some cases it's a closed loop and in others an open loop. Same goes for "f", which I've seen written in different ways.

[Butter]

Precisely because I wanted to hear the opinion of Americans and find out what their children are actually taught in school. I have done quite a bit of my own observation and comparison, read a few professional studies about this topic, as well as heard the ordinary people's opinions. Then I specifically wanted to find an American forum about education to ask this question directly.

 

You do know this forum is made up mostly of homeschoolers, right?  Many of the kids have never been in school to find out what pencil grip is taught.

 

Also, why have you not addressed what has been posted about the tripod grip (which I actually use) not being the best after all?

Edited October 14, 2016 by Butter

[Guest]

If you think Americans are going to feel bothered about Europeans thinking we are uncultured, I'd like to introduce you to our friend, THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF THE USA. Americans invented truck nuts. *Truck nuts,*bro.

 

Also, I'm 100% certain you are not in a position to speak for what all European ppl (? I'm sure they love being lumped all together, too!) would hypothetically think about the great American pencil grip failure epidemic.

 

What weird weirdness afoot today in the internets!

 

Edited to correct "truck nuts" ... All time forum low haha

Edited October 14, 2016 by OKBud

[Fast_and_Curious]

You do know this forum is made up mostly of homeschoolers, right?  Many of the kids have never been in school to find out what pencil grip is taught.

 

Also, why have you not addressed what has been posted about the tripod grip (which I actually use) not being the best after all?

 

No, I didn't know this forum is about homeschooling. I just found it by Googling "education", along with some other forums I asked the same question on.

 

Yes, I have seen the results of some studies that showed that several pencil grips performed equally well when it comes to speed and legibility. It's all about what you are used to. However, I have seen many people's comments which stated that they can't write for a long time or even more than a few sentences/paragraphs, because their hand starts hurting and/or gets tired easily due to the incorrect grip.

[Fast_and_Curious]

 

Also, I'm 100% certain you are not in a position to speak for what all European ppl (? I'm sure they love being lumped all together, too!) would hypothetically think about the great American pencil grip failure epidemic.

 

 

 

I can't speak for all Europeans, but I do notice general trends. Let me add that I have travelled all over Europe extensively, and of course, the Internet is a magical thing where you can find whatever you're interested in :)

[Guest]

I can't speak for all Europeans, but I do notice general trends. Let me add that I have travelled all over Europe extensively, and of course, the Internet is a magical thing where you can find whatever you're interested in :)

....travelled all over, extensively interviewing Europeans about their thoughts on the degradation of penmanship education of Yankees?

 

I stand corrected, then.

[Jean in Newcastle]

http://www.at-udl.com/library_bkup/DATA/Misc%20PDF's/pencil%20grips%20and%20handwriting.pdf

[Fast_and_Curious]

Yeah, when I travel, I am generally more interested in historical sites, beautiful scenary, and unique foods.  Pen grips wouldn't even enter the list of things I would want to travel to see lol. 

 

Same here, and I do enjoy all of the things you mentioned, but for the last few years I have also paid attention to the pen grips, because that is something that caught my attention. I don't travel to see that, but once I'm there, I make my observations. I also looked online to compare different nationalities.

[Fast_and_Curious]

 

 

You said you were curious about what Americans think.....I would say that Americans generally think that the content of the ink on the page is way more important than the mechanics of the grip on the pen used to put the ink down. 

 

Well, unfortunately, a lot of them also have bad spelling and grammar, but that is a different topic altogether.

[maize]

No, I didn't know this forum is about homeschooling. I just found it by Googling "education", along with some other forums I asked the same question on.

 

Yes, I have seen the results of some studies that showed that several pencil grips performed equally well when it comes to speed and legibility. It's all about what you are used to. However, I have seen many people's comments which stated that they can't write for a long time or even more than a few sentences/paragraphs, because their hand starts hurting and/or gets tired easily due to the incorrect grip.

If you read the report I linked above, you will find that the grips with the strongest performance in terms of fluency and endurance were all variations of a thumb wrap grip, not a tripod grip.

 

This is from carefully conducted studies, not random people's comments :)

 

Eta actually looking at the picture again I am not sure if my thumb wrap terminology is correct, I don't know exactly how to describe them. The study uses the term "power grip with ease" and most seem to involve the pencil resting near the webbing of the thumb. The study report is 140 pages but quite interesting if you care about writing grips.

Edited October 14, 2016 by maize

[HS Mom in NC]

Not everyone accepts the idea that there's a single correct way to hold a pen. Frankly, it's silly.  Europeans and Asians may have a standard way of doing it but that's different than there being one right way.  If holding a pen a certain way causes hand pain, slows down writing speed, or causes ink to get on your fingers, then yes, you're doing it wrong.  If none of those things are happening, it doesn't matter how you're holding it, it's the right way. 

Neither is there one right way to form each letter.  There are different styles of penmanship that prioritize different things.  Kids just need a little practice reading each style which can be accomplished easily in a week. They need to work on legible penmanship throughout their school years.

Traditionalists love tradition for its own sake.  That's fine for them, but they shouldn't insist other people accept is a the right because there isn't one right way.

[Fast_and_Curious]

If you read the report I linked above, you will find that the grips with the strongest performance in terms of fluency and endurance were all variations of a thumb wrap grip, not a tripod grip.

 

This is from carefully conducted studies, not random people's comments :)

 

The studies I've seen had different results and different conclusions. It's not always consistent and may depend on many factors.

[creekland]

So, not to belabor this conversation, but out if curiosity I just emailed a friend of mine from Chinato get her opinion. She said that's what she loves about America, you can do whatever you want and there's no one there to say your wrong or bad. And she also said she thinks Americans focus more on creativity and are less bothered by rules.

 

I believe this goes back to the American Revolution where we were underestimated because "we didn't fight correctly."  Our incorrect method helped us hold on long enough to convince the French to join us.  Had we played correctly we'd have had no chance whatsoever.

 

Well, unfortunately, a lot of them also have bad spelling and grammar, but that is a different topic altogether.

 

Now see, we also recently had a thread about that (and dialects).  You should lurk around a little.  You might find yourself highly amused.

 

I agree that it can be interesting to see/understand how others think and why they choose to do what they do.  This is a very informative forum for that with folks on it from around the world (not just the US/Canada).

 

The more we understand our world, the better we all are - as long as we realize the #1 directive of "live and let live."  You get to choose for yourself (and perhaps your family pending topic and age, etc), but so do we all.  It crosses the line when folks start putting others down merely because they disagree about topics.  The goal is understanding our world, not world domination with "my way or the highway," or "my way or you're an idiot."

 

Reasons and facts are allowed too. It's not all opinion.  Condemnation is not ever needed nor desired.  (eg It's better to bend your knees to lift something than to bend over at your middle, because the latter can seriously hurt your back.)  Even with pencil grip, those who have linked to factual studies about different methods are providing a good service for anyone still at that stage with teaching their younguns - or wanting to change themselves.

Edited October 14, 2016 by creekland

[maize]

The studies I've seen had different results and different conclusions. It's not always consistent and may depend on many factors.

Links would be appreciated :)

 

It is certainly not unusual for studies to come to different conclusions; this would be especially true in situations where the variables being studied actually have very little effect--as may be the case when it comes to various writing grips.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Americans are pragmatists.  If something works, we tend to go with it. 

 

Japanese do not hold their pens/pencils exactly the Western way.  Their grip is more reminiscent of what is used for brush calligraphy. 

[maize]

As for why there is more variation among Americans--conformity is not as important a virtue over here as it is in many parts of the world.

[Fast_and_Curious]

Links would be appreciated :)

 

 

 

Unfortunately, I don't have the links anymore and don't remember them, but the results varied in different studies. (And not all of them were in English, either.) Most concluded that there were several grips that worked just as well as tripod. In some studies the conventional way of writing produced better results, and in some it was inconclusive. It's all individual - a person with an incorrect grip can write faster and more legibly than another person with a correct grip. However, a lot of incorrect ways can cause fatigue and/or pain.

 

I particularly remember a study performed by a lady from Finland, and there was a section that compared Finnish students with American students. Her explanation for the more incorrect and inconsistent grips among Americans was that they start school much earlier than Finnish children and therefore start writing when their hands are still not capable of a mature pencil grip, so they develop bad habits that persist at an older age as well. However, I'm not sure about that theory, because in many European countries children start school as early as Americans and you still see much more of a tripod grip.

 

Edited October 14, 2016 by Fast_and_Curious

[maize]

Unfortunately, I don't have the links anymore and don't remember them, but the results varied in different studies. (And not all of them were in English, either.) Most concluded that there were several grips that worked just as well as tripod. In some studies the conventional way of writing produced better results, and in some it was inconclusive. It's all individual - a person with an incorrect grip can write faster and more legibly than another person with a correct grip. However, a lot of incorrect ways can cause fatigue and/or pain.

 

I particularly remember a study performed by a lady from Finland, and there was a section that compared Finnish students with American students. Her explanation for the more incorrect and inconsistent grips among Americans was that they start school much earlier than Finnish children and therefore start writing when their hands are still not capable of a mature pencil grip, so they develop bad habits that persist at an older age as well. However, I'm not sure about that theory, because in many European countries children start school as early as Americans and you still see much more of a tripod grip.

 

Quite a few of us on this board can read in languages other than English :)

[ElizaG]

As for why there is more variation among Americans--conformity is not as important a virtue over here as it is in many parts of the world.

Interestingly, Europeans often see Americans as very conformist.  (I think Chesterton and de Tocqueville both said this, though I might be misremembering.)  As an immigrant, I tend to agree.

 

For instance, witness the conformity in this thread.  Apparently, the only socially acceptable response is to say that all pencil grips are equally good.   If someone happens to disagree, then they'd better keep quiet, or else be willing to get into some war of "scientific studies" (for whatever that's worth!).  All the while, having their motives questioned, and being told how much they're giving offense to others.  

 

It reminds me of the "Ask a Montessorian" thread from a while back.  I wonder if "Humble Thinker" and "Fast and Curious" are related.  :laugh:

[dirty ethel rackham]

Of course there is nothing illegal or immoral about it. You can hold your pencil any way you want. However, in many places you may be considered uneducated, illiterate or even uncultured if you hold it in a very non-standard way. In another forum about this topic, people were commenting about Americans' strange habits and lack of good penmanship. Someone showed a picture of the particular way he/she holds the pen and it was pressed by index and middle fingers while the thumb was wrapped around these. A person from Germany said that, if people there saw someone hold their pencil like that, they would immediately assume that this person has Down Syndrome or something like that.

Wow!  I think that says a lot more about the prejudices of this random person from Germany than it does about effective pencil grips.  How offensive!

 

I was taught the tripod grasp and taught that to my children.  One used it, but struggled with writing too hard and still had hand fatigue.  That was corrected with using a mechanical pencil (which breaks if you press too hard.)  My other two children were very resistant to using the tripod grasp.  I tried using special grips to encourage this "proper" grasp, but to no avail.   I consulted a friend who is a pediatric occupational therapist friend about this I was concerned about proper mechanics and fatigue.  She assured me that there was more than one acceptable grip and that there were a few things that needed to be adjusted with my children, but that it was OK if they did not use the tripod grasp.  I have one child who wrote and drew very effectively with the quadrupod grasp.  This kid still has very neat handwriting.  My other child uses a thumb wrap.  We were never able to change that, but we did adjust some mechanics of her writing to reduce hand fatigue.    BTW, my thumb-wrap child is a talented artist and writer despite her "incorrect" grasp.  I have seen her work on a project for 7-8 hours straight without hand fatigue. 

 

https://theanonymousot.com/2013/03/22/when-to-fix-a-pencil-grasp/

 

No, I didn't know this forum is about homeschooling. I just found it by Googling "education", along with some other forums I asked the same question on.

 

Yes, I have seen the results of some studies that showed that several pencil grips performed equally well when it comes to speed and legibility. It's all about what you are used to. However, I have seen many people's comments which stated that they can't write for a long time or even more than a few sentences/paragraphs, because their hand starts hurting and/or gets tired easily due to the incorrect grip.

So, you get your jollies signing up on random message boards and telling everyone how they do things wrong?   You must make a lot of friends and influence so many people in that manner.  :lol:

[AMJ]

I don't look down upon anyone. I personally don't have any prejudices. I just observe, investigate, ask and reach conclusions. I asked this question because it seemed that this issue is not given as much importance in America as it is in other places. I wanted to ask if that is true, and if so, why. I agree that the way this person in the other forum described things was not very nice, but the reality is that people tend to judge.

 

 

I suggest, then, that you reexamine how you are presenting yourself here.  Many things you are saying -- and the way in which you say them -- seem quite pre-judging in that you have formed some opinions about Americans before you started this thread, and you argue against our opinions and input (after having asked for them) when they do not support your preconceived notions.

 

I recommend that before you proceed further you take some time to learn about the forums on which you decided to post.  Know your audience.  And consider that what they have, in good faith, offered in response to your query might just have good merit.

[dirty ethel rackham]

Interestingly, Europeans often see Americans as very conformist.  (I think Chesterton and de Tocqueville both said this, though I might be misremembering.)  As an immigrant, I tend to agree.

 

For instance, witness the conformity in this thread.  Apparently, the only socially acceptable response is to say that all pencil grips are equally good.   If someone happens to disagree, then they'd better keep quiet, or else be willing to get into some war of "scientific studies" (for whatever that's worth!).  All the while, having their motives questioned, and being told how much they're giving offense to others.  

 

It reminds me of the "Ask a Montessorian" thread from a while back.  I wonder if "Humble Thinker" and "Fast and Curious" are related.  :laugh:

Nobody here said that all pencil grips are equally good.  They are simply disputing the notion that there is one and only one correct pencil grasp.  That is not the same as "all grips are equally good." 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Interestingly, Europeans often see Americans as very conformist.  (I think Chesterton and de Tocqueville both said this, though I might be misremembering.)  As an immigrant, I tend to agree.

 

For instance, witness the conformity in this thread.  Apparently, the only socially acceptable response is to say that all pencil grips are equally good.   If someone happens to disagree, then they'd better keep quiet, or else be willing to get into some war of "scientific studies" (for whatever that's worth!).  All the while, having their motives questioned, and being told how much they're giving offense to others.  

 

It reminds me of the "Ask a Montessorian" thread from a while back.  I wonder if "Humble Thinker" and "Fast and Curious" are related.  :laugh:

 

No, the consensus, after some people looked it up or had discussed it with an OT in the past, was that there are a couple of standard grips.  And that unstandard grips can still provide acceptable legibility and certainly do not affect the writing content.  And because of that, many people don't really care.  The social offense is in trying to generalize an entire country.  Or an entire forum like you are doing.  The scientific studies were looked at because if you are going to come in with dogmatic statements with absolutely no room for discussion, then perhaps you should actually know what you are talking about and should be able to back it up. 

[ElizaG]

Nobody here said that all pencil grips are equally good.  They are simply disputing the notion that there is one and only one correct pencil grasp.  That is not the same as "all grips are equally good." 

I guess we're reading this differently, because I'm pretty sure they did.  See posts #3 and #4, for starters. 

[dirty ethel rackham]

I guess we're reading this differently, because I'm pretty sure they did.  See posts #3 and #4, for starters. 

Ok, I guess I didn't see that.  I'd say the overwhelming majority of posters are not saying that all grips are equal.  They were really about disputing the "only one correct grip" idea.  I only read two of the articles posted and neither were saying that either.

[maize]

Interestingly, Europeans often see Americans as very conformist. (I think Chesterton and de Tocqueville both said this, though I might be misremembering.) As an immigrant, I tend to agree.

 

 

That is interesting, perhaps such observations are partly due to a human tendency to perceive more sameness in groups that are foreign to us than in ourselves.

 

Conformity in school tasks was much more in evidence to me in France than in the US--minute details were strictly prescribed: what type of pen to use, what color ink, what style writing was to be used, what type of paper, precisely how compositions were to be laid out, etc. Notebooks must be set up exactly as the teacher instructed and were turned in and graded on a regular basis (notes were to be copied down verbatim from the teachers' lectures).

[Kathleen.]

I can't believe this is still going......you realize Tocqueville visited America in the 1830s and Chesterton in the 1920s and '30s.

[ElizaG]

The social offense is in trying to generalize an entire country.  Or an entire forum like you are doing.  The scientific studies were looked at because if you are going to come in with dogmatic statements with absolutely no room for discussion, then perhaps you should actually know what you are talking about and should be able to back it up. 

No, I'm not trying to generalize about the entire forum.  It's not entirely American, and there are American posters who don't share the attitude that's predominated in this thread.  

 

My point was that there are different sorts of conformity, and one of these is the "do your own thing" sort -- where there's social pressure not to speak up for some standard that's more exacting than the current local norm, because it might give offense to those who don't follow that standard (whether by choice, or by circumstance). 

 

I think, as homeschoolers whose values are in some sense "classical," we've all encountered this in some way.  Some would say that pencil grip is an entirely different issue from, say, expectations about the type of literature studied in high school.  Others might disagree, and see it all as part of the same big picture.  I think this gets at some fundamental questions about education, and could be the basis of an interesting discussion.  Whatever the OP's motives might be.  :001_smile:

[Fast_and_Curious]

 

Apparently, the only socially acceptable response is to say that all pencil grips are equally good.   If someone happens to disagree, then they'd better keep quiet, or else be willing to get into some war of "scientific studies" (for whatever that's worth!).  All the while, having their motives questioned, and being told how much they're giving offense to others.  

 

 

Exactly. People always tend to get offended and question others' motives when they somehow don't like any form of criticism. Americans seem to be especially sensitive to the criticism of their country and/or people.

 

"I wonder if "Humble Thinker" and "Fast and Curious" are related."

 

Well, based on his/her name, I think we might have a few things in common :))

[Fast_and_Curious]

 

So, you get your jollies signing up on random message boards and telling everyone how they do things wrong?   You must make a lot of friends and influence so many people in that manner.  :lol:

 

And this confirms exactly what I said in my previous comment. Such an inappropriate assumption that has nothing to do with reality. I searched for these forums to actually ask a question and get some answers, not to get some type of pleasure from telling people they do things wrong.

[maize]

 

My point was that there are different sorts of conformity, and one of these is the "do your own thing" sort -- where there's social pressure not to speak up for some standard that's more exacting than the current local norm, because it might give offense to those who don't follow that standard (whether by choice, or by circumstance).

 

 

I do not see what you do in this thread.

 

I don't know why you speak of local norms as there is nothing local about this board?

 

We are challenging the assumption that just because something is standard practice it is necessarily superior. The OP has offered very little in the way of evidence to support their claim that there is a single correct way to hold a writing implement.

[Guest]

I do not see what you do in this thread.

 

I don't know why you speak of local norms as there is nothing local about this board?

 

We are challenging the assumption that just because something is standard practice it is necessarily superior. The OP has offered very little in the way of evidence to support their claim that there is a single correct way to hold a writing implement.

Wrong, Maize, op said Europeans know it is correct, therefore it is correct and why would you need more proof than that? Europe=science.

[Fast_and_Curious]

I suggest, then, that you reexamine how you are presenting yourself here.  Many things you are saying -- and the way in which you say them -- seem quite pre-judging in that you have formed some opinions about Americans before you started this thread, and you argue against our opinions and input (after having asked for them) when they do not support your preconceived notions.

 

 

That is absolutely not true. Of course, I did form some opinions about Americans based on the previous experiences, but I don't generalise the entire nation and definitely don't argue against your input. I'm interested in everyone's opinion, but some people saw my question as some kind of attack and then responded with a counter-attack. That is what I argue against.

[Fast_and_Curious]

We are challenging the assumption that just because something is standard practice it is necessarily superior. The OP has offered very little in the way of evidence to support their claim that there is a single correct way to hold a writing implement.

 

At the end of the day, my question isn't about if the standard pencil grip is superior to others. It's about why a large percentage of Americans don't learn / don't use the standard grip that is used in pretty much the rest of the world.