Did Ronit Bird actually help your child memorize times tables?

[FairProspects]

I'm sort of intrigued by the Ronit Bird materials because we use c-rods for so much of math. Especially my oldest ds can do almost any math problem with them. I see that Ronit Bird has a newish book out about multiplication. If you use his materials, did they help your dc to memorize times tables with faster recall or just add depth to your math teaching as far as concepts?

[OneStepAtATime]

What it has helped DD do is to remember math patterns and internalize those better.  As for the multiplication tables, I think what we did with Ronit Bird and Dynamo Math finally put her in a position to START to memorize multiplication tables.  It has been those things as the base then moving to CLE that is making a difference.  She did not memorize tables through either of the first programs.  It just helped her tremendously with setting a more solid foundation for moving back into multiplication tables.

 

CLE has a great, very systematic, targeted introduction to multiplication.  The combination of the three programs is what seems to be turning things around, but I had her start with CLE 200.  She worked through it at a very rapid pace, and it was entirely review at that point but she needed the review.  It basically solidified addition and subtraction after Ronit Bird and Dynamo math.  Now we are in 300 at an accelerated pace but not as fast as 200.  She does great with the way the flash cards, skip counting and speed drills are done (these would not have been possible before RB or DM), as well as the incredibly tight spiral review.  

 

I anticipate we will hit level 400 by January or February and 500 over the summer.  She finally seems to have internalized 2x, 5x, 9x, 10x and is progressing with 3x and 6x.  4x will be next.  I do something a bit differenlty, though.  As we go through the multiplication flash cards, I then flip the cards around and do the division side right afterwards.  She is seeing the pattern and better understanding the concept behind both.  Also, each side is reinforcing the other for internalization.  

 

If I had it all to do again I would have spent the first several years just doing Ronit Bird and math games, then maybe CLE with Ronit Bird (or possibly CLE, Ronit Bird AND DM, rotating and sharing space).  But I would not have started her with a formal math program in 4k like the school did.  I don't think I would even have started a formal math program until 1st or so. And I would have gone very slowly.  I think her brain needed time to mature and she needed a much slower, much more systematic and carefully targeted approach than was used in her school, by a very large margin.

 

Not sure that helped you much....

[PeterPan]

RB is a her I think.  :)  Anyways!  What RB does for my ds is make the numbers MEAN something.  That's not going to change speed of retrieval, because that's a retrieval problem.  I'm doing skip counting with him right now, but it's just an auditory exercise.  The numbers for him don't MEAN anything.  

 

So I have no clue what she does in her new multiplication ebook, but frankly I'm thinking it will probably be brilliant.  For $10 (right?) you can hardly go wrong.

[wapiti]

So, is this the one called Understanding the Times Tables?  I'm not sure I searched correctly, but I found this e-book for $5.99, under iTunes... I can't find a regular book.  Link?

[OneStepAtATime]

RB is a her I think.   :)  Anyways!  What RB does for my ds is make the numbers MEAN something.  That's not going to change speed of retrieval, because that's a retrieval problem.  I'm doing skip counting with him right now, but it's just an auditory exercise.  The numbers for him don't MEAN anything.  

 

So I have no clue what she does in her new multiplication ebook, but frankly I'm thinking it will probably be brilliant.  For $10 (right?) you can hardly go wrong.

Yes.  To both!  :)  And I didn't know RB was coming out with a new multiplication e-book. I want it !  :)

 

Patterns and understanding was what DD gained from RB.  It has helped her so much, but the help is almost subtle.  For instance, she can now picture in her head without conscious thought what it takes to add several different sets of numbers to get to 10.  She couldn't do that before.  So let's say we are going to cook something and she sees that we have only 2 eggs but we need 10, she knows that means we need 8 more eggs without having to do the math on paper or count out each egg.  She couldn't do that before.  The subitization function just wasn't there, KWIM?  Which means that now the multiples of a number make more sense, not just consciously but subconsciously.

[FairProspects]

Ah, ok. Why did I think the multiplication book would be about retrieval based on visualization with c-rods? I'm not sure if I'm relieved or frustrated that all our troubles seem to stem from the same issues of retrieval and slow processing and I'm not sure if the book would help us then. Yes, it is the e-book Understanding the Times Tables. I don't think there is a regular book.

[Heathermomster]

I used Overcoming Difficulties with Number (ODwN) but not the c-rod specific e-pub.  ODwN lists all the necessary pre-skills required to learn the time tables.  I systematically worked on the pre-skills with DS and then used c-rods to demonstrate the area model of multiplication.  I then taught DS the distributive property of algebra, and DS started calculating the values in his head.  DS continues to practice the facts.  Even though he can tell you the math facts, simplifying fractions has been a challenge, and DS still works best with a multiplication chart.

 

DS uses methods like lattice math and the area model first seen in ODwN all the time.  I also use info gleaned from the website Thinking Mathematics! developed by James Tanton.  

 

If the new e-pub by Ronit Bird includes the pre-skills required to learn the muliplication tables, I actually think the e-pub might be worth the money.  The problem is that I don't know all that the e-pub includes.  You could e-mail RB directly.   She lives in England and is very helpful. 

 

 

[FairProspects]

Well, I bought it. Ds passed the pre-test with 19 out of 20 and even that last one was just because he incorrectly halved 26 and corrected himself. It lists the pre-skills needed for the multiplication work and gives examples but does not cover them specifically (that material is in the c-rod e-book).

 

It looks like we have covered all the material through the first 3 chapters of Understanding Times Tables already from tutors & Education Unboxed/Singapore, but I think the last 2 chapters will have some cool activities that fit in with how ds reasons out math facts anyway and that I haven't seen elsewhere. I'm not sure it will improve his speed any, which is what seems to be his biggest problem lately, but the work might reinforce what he has been trying to do in his head as it is, so I think that will be a win.

[Soror]

Listening along ds has the same issues, sadly the Bird multiplication book is only for the iPad.

[PeterPan]

Soror, you're on windows or pc?  There's an iTunes for windows, right?  I mean, how else would windows users get stuff onto their i-devices?  So then is there iBooks for windows?  See if you can read it on your computer, that's what I'm saying.  But really, Christmas is coming...  I use an ipad 3.  Maybe they're getting cheaper these days?  The wifi is faster on the ipad airs and the processor better, but I'm just saying I'd rather have an older one than NO ipad.  But whatever, that's your rabbit trail.  

 

Fair Prospects, I'm glad to hear some of it's going to be useful to you!  Since our kids (does yours?) do so much in their heads, the more they get comfortable with the processes and own them, the more they can manipulate them in their minds.  Obviously don't bore your kid to tears, but I wouldn't underestimate how powerful a simple, well-designed task is in RB.  I started to type this yesterday and deleted, but basically ds got into the psych and was doing stuff I've never explicitly taught him.  It's just that the SIMPLE SIMPLE things we're doing in RB gave him this visualization foundation that he could manipulate in his mind.  So they were asking him to solve word problems and do basic written computation (which I'm assuming they read him).  The ONLY thing we've done in Ronit Bird is the Dot Patterns ebook and literally that has been "this is the number 3.  could you form the number 3 with dots? could you see the number 1 inside the 3?"  I mean, we've been doing this for MONTHS, just this.  We've spent weeks now with dominoes for 1-10 lined up and blank index cards, playing a game where we roll die and lay down dots.  It's DECEPTIVELY SIMPLE.  

 

When I asked the psych about math disability, he says no, he's at grade level for math, can't say that.  And I think WOW, you don't realize the bizarre lengths we've gone to to get him to understand *this is a three*.  So to me, the RB is fundamentally digging in on the dyscalculia.  Or else it was all the dyslexia.  Or else I am off-whack in my expectations.  But whatever.  That's why I'm so impressed, because we do these simple, simple things and dots connect (haha) in his mind.  So consider going through the early chapters quickly and moving on as he can play the games with easy and fluency.  You can tell when someone has nailed it and doesn't need that game anymore.  The games may build some of the fluency you're wanting, because they're targeting visualization, not language, and visualization is what you always have with you.  With RightStart, all we really had was language: look at this pattern, see it, say it.  You have to move from language to visualization.  Say I who haven't seen that ebook yet, lol.  I intentionally don't look ahead because I don't want to go crazy.  I'm glad to hear from you that it's good!   :)

 

Have you seen something like this?  http://www.schoolmoves.com/product/butterfly-8s-rapid-naming-dots/  I made some of the dot pages on my mac, didn't take long.  In the Focus Moves ebook they step it up with more complicated rapid naming posters.  They'll have things like arrows with directions that they have to read aloud. I just thought this was witty because it's something I *can* do with my non-reader and it seems to dig in on the actual problem of the rapid naming and fluency.  Even the Eides say to put certain things on flashcards and just drill 'em.  But the rapid naming charts I think are aimed at improving their ability to do it *quickly*.  Whatever, just a free idea I'm trying.   :)

[Heathermomster]

Well, I bought it. Ds passed the pre-test with 19 out of 20 and even that last one was just because he incorrectly halved 26 and corrected himself. It lists the pre-skills needed for the multiplication work and gives examples but does not cover them specifically (that material is in the c-rod e-book).

 

It looks like we have covered all the material through the first 3 chapters of Understanding Times Tables already from tutors & Education Unboxed/Singapore, but I think the last 2 chapters will have some cool activities that fit in with how ds reasons out math facts anyway and that I haven't seen elsewhere. I'm not sure it will improve his speed any, which is what seems to be his biggest problem lately, but the work might reinforce what he has been trying to do in his head as it is, so I think that will be a win.

I used all the materials I could find through the Internet and son's school text book to cover the pre-skills.  For c-rod work, DS used metric graph paper, and matching colored pencils to see. prove, and work out the problems.  He thought it was a game, and that was a relief.  Math should not be a perpetual nightmare.

 

It would help if your child knows his  1s, 2s, 5s, 10, and 11s facts cold.  DS praticed with the untimed Fast Rabbit Math Software to speed up the facts.   DS also practiced mental math using a basic Singapore knockoff practice manual that helped considerably.  

[Soror]

Elizabeth, thanks for your thoughts, I'll have to check it out and I had been considering an older iPad for the educational apps.

 

I was reading or watching something the other day and it was someone talking about how they were never able to master their times tables but proceeded to higher levels just fine. I wonder sometimes how much effort to put into learning these things and at what point do you give up. The NP told us to just use spellcheck but we're trying A&P now to see if it sticks. They didn't test ds specifically on facts for math but his math fluency scores were 80+% apart from his conceptual understanding. Sometimes I think we're getting there and then his brain is sometimes on vacation and we cannot remember addition facts.

[OneStepAtATime]

I have a first generation I-Pad and the RB website seems to be indicating I need something newer for the e-books especially the latest one (or maybe I don't know what I"m talking about but that's what I understood).  I have not tried the e-books yet but I think they would be easier on my eyes than the tiny print and close spacing in the regular books.  I hate the idea of additional expense right now.  Van is just limping along at the moment.  Soror, if we lived closer I'd say lets share one.  :)  But I really want the e-books, especially the times table one.  Hmmmm.  Really big garage sale?  Anyone want to come by my junk?  :lol:

[FairProspects]

 

Fair Prospects, I'm glad to hear some of it's going to be useful to you!  Since our kids (does yours?) do so much in their heads, the more they get comfortable with the processes and own them, the more they can manipulate them in their minds.  Obviously don't bore your kid to tears, but I wouldn't underestimate how powerful a simple, well-designed task is in RB.  I started to type this yesterday and deleted, but basically ds got into the psych and was doing stuff I've never explicitly taught him.  It's just that the SIMPLE SIMPLE things we're doing in RB gave him this visualization foundation that he could manipulate in his mind.  So they were asking him to solve word problems and do basic written computation (which I'm assuming they read him).  The ONLY thing we've done in Ronit Bird is the Dot Patterns ebook and literally that has been "this is the number 3.  could you form the number 3 with dots? could you see the number 1 inside the 3?"  I mean, we've been doing this for MONTHS, just this.  We've spent weeks now with dominoes for 1-10 lined up and blank index cards, playing a game where we roll die and lay down dots.  It's DECEPTIVELY SIMPLE.  

 

When I asked the psych about math disability, he says no, he's at grade level for math, can't say that.  And I think WOW, you don't realize the bizarre lengths we've gone to to get him to understand *this is a three*.  So to me, the RB is fundamentally digging in on the dyscalculia.  Or else it was all the dyslexia.  Or else I am off-whack in my expectations.  But whatever.  That's why I'm so impressed, because we do these simple, simple things and dots connect (haha) in his mind.  So consider going through the early chapters quickly and moving on as he can play the games with easy and fluency.  You can tell when someone has nailed it and doesn't need that game anymore.  The games may build some of the fluency you're wanting, because they're targeting visualization, not language, and visualization is what you always have with you.  With RightStart, all we really had was language: look at this pattern, see it, say it.  You have to move from language to visualization.  Say I who haven't seen that ebook yet, lol.  I intentionally don't look ahead because I don't want to go crazy.  I'm glad to hear from you that it's good!   :)

 

Have you seen something like this?  http://www.schoolmoves.com/product/butterfly-8s-rapid-naming-dots/  I made some of the dot pages on my mac, didn't take long.  In the Focus Moves ebook they step it up with more complicated rapid naming posters.  They'll have things like arrows with directions that they have to read aloud. I just thought this was witty because it's something I *can* do with my non-reader and it seems to dig in on the actual problem of the rapid naming and fluency.  Even the Eides say to put certain things on flashcards and just drill 'em.  But the rapid naming charts I think are aimed at improving their ability to do it *quickly*.  Whatever, just a free idea I'm trying.   :)

 

Well, we don't have a dyscalculia label for one. We have definitely covered some of this material six ways to Sunday and ds' mathematician tutor thinks he ready for more of a challenge. Ds actually has incredible numeracy - he just has a retrieval and storage problem. I was told specifically that rapid naming activities would not help in his case, and that the best thing to do was just to have him continually derive the answers in the context of problem solving. So it is a bit of a puzzle to me because his issues don't even fit in the typical LD box.

 

I used all the materials I could find through the Internet and son's school text book to cover the pre-skills.  For c-rod work, DS used metric graph paper, and matching colored pencils to see. prove, and work out the problems.  He thought it was a game, and that was a relief.  Math should not be a perpetual nightmare.

 

It would help if your child knows his  1s, 2s, 5s, 10, and 11s facts cold.  DS praticed with the untimed Fast Rabbit Math Software to speed up the facts.   DS also practiced mental math using a basic Singapore knockoff practice manual that helped considerably.  

 

Ds does have all of these down but he is just slow to recall. I'm not sure how much of a problem that is. Right now it is an issue because it is a such a huge discrepancy between what he wants to do conceptually and his recall. I'm also not sure that he is that atypically slow as I am a super fast processor and everything seems slow to me.

 

 

Elizabeth, thanks for your thoughts, I'll have to check it out and I had been considering an older iPad for the educational apps.

 

I was reading or watching something the other day and it was someone talking about how they were never able to master their times tables but proceeded to higher levels just fine. I wonder sometimes how much effort to put into learning these things and at what point do you give up. The NP told us to just use spellcheck but we're trying A&P now to see if it sticks. They didn't test ds specifically on facts for math but his math fluency scores were 80+% apart from his conceptual understanding. Sometimes I think we're getting there and then his brain is sometimes on vacation and we cannot remember addition facts.

 

Yup this is us as well. We were told to keep moving ahead and it would just come. I know this was true for us for addition facts so my tendency is to think it will be true for multiplication too. I heard Zacarro speak this summer and he basically said to concentrate on 2s, 5s, & 10s also which I thought was interesting. Overall, I guess I am getting the feeling that this is not as big of a problem as I think it is, but if some of these activities can help improve anything, all the better.

[Heathermomster]

FairP, how does he do on the 2s, 5s, and 10s using the 10-keypad only?  Writing and speech is removed that way.  Does word retrieval come into play in that circumstance?  Is he in OT or SLP for word retrieval?

 

ETA:  How does he perform math when using a times table?  Does he have to take standardized tests?

[FairProspects]

I don't know what you mean by the 10-keypad. Maybe that is in the book I don't have?

 

No OT or ST. The OT didn't know what to do with it and he is within the realm of normal for even the private ST eval at the specialty children's therapy center. Neuropsych said it was just part of the dyslexia and not of concern. Maybe I'm making too much of it?

 

He is fabulous at math when he uses a times table and is getting to be pretty good at deriving even when he does not (tutor does not allow it in sessions). My expectations might be too high because I feel like math facts are the only thing holding him back from pre-algebra or algebra since everyone keeps telling me he is ready for more challenge. Maybe I need to let that part go with his profile.

[Heathermomster]

I wasn't very clear,  When I say the 10 keypad, I was assuming an electronic type drill software using the computer.  For some reason, I thought you had purchased multiplication sw where the timer could be turned off.  

 

No, I don't believe you are making too much of this.  ETA:  I think the tutor should allow your DS to derive the tables first thing.

[LaughingCat]

The 10 keypad is the number keypad that is often on the right side of a keyboard (vs. the number line of numbers above the alphabet).

 

When DD was doing XtraMath some years ago, she struggled sometimes with finding the number on the keypad - it always seemed to me that this was a recall issue - of where the number was on the keypad.  For example, she would say the number out loud - and then hesitate before typing the number or even type the wrong number. 

[Heathermomster]

The 10 keypad is the number keypad that is often on the right side of a keyboard (vs. the number line of numbers above the alphabet).

 

When DD was doing XtraMath some years ago, she struggled sometimes with finding the number on the keypad - it always seemed to me that this was a recall issue - of where the number was on the keypad.  For example, she would say the number out loud - and then hesitate before typing the number or even type the wrong number. 

DS never strugged that way.  Any program we used had the timer turned off.   I stress accuracy over speed.

[PeterPan]

Well what pre-algebra are you wanting to do?  You could give him HOE without a problem.

[LaughingCat]

I meant that using a 10 number pad did not remove the retrieval problems for DD vs verbal/writing - it appeared to only add another layer to process in finding the number on the keypad (I only mentioned XtraMath because that is where it stuck in my mind most)

[Heathermomster]

I meant that using a 10 number pad did not remove the retrieval problems for DD vs verbal/writing - it appeared to only add another layer to process in finding the number on the keypad (I only mentioned XtraMath because that is where it stuck in my mind most)

How did you ultimately manage the word retrieval and the writing?  Was there any success with keyboarding?

 

DS has been fortunate to achieve automaticity with a keyboard.

[FairProspects]

Oh good grief. With this kid I never know what I'm gonna get. We did one of the nines exercises in chapter 4 today from the Ronit Bird book and 2 problems in he says, "Oh, I get it! I see the pattern!"  and proceeds to derive the entire 9s table based on whatever pattern he identified in his head. Every time I worry about him struggling with something in math, eventually there is this huge click, usually in a weird way, and it is no big deal. I'm not even sure he did it right according to her material because he didn't build anything, but something about that method allowed him to see an intrinsic pattern and go from there. I think we might finish out these activities and just move into drill. I think he is actually a lot closer to being successful with quick recall than I realized.

 

We have done HOE already and loved it, but he flew through it at 8. If I could find something else like that I would use it in a heartbeat.

[LaughingCat]

The only thing I know that noticeably helped DD in math facts retrieval is having her dribble a ball (large sitting one i.e. slow bounces, easy to control ) while skip counting - starting with the easy facts.  Although I actually started this to work on her sense of beat, I think that this put "just enough" extra load on her brain and it also helped that it has an immediate, obvious yet relatively neutral kinesthetic reinforcement for speed (missing the bounce).    The metronome work that I have usually seen suggested for this type of purpose was far too hard for DD at the time (and there was no feedback to her - so she couldn't even tell she had missed the beat).

 

[PeterPan]

The only thing I know that noticeably helped DD in math facts retrieval is having her dribble a ball (large sitting one i.e. slow bounces, easy to control ) while skip counting - starting with the easy facts.  Although I actually started this to work on her sense of beat, I think that this put "just enough" extra load on her brain and it also helped that it has an immediate, obvious yet relatively neutral kinesthetic reinforcement for speed (missing the bounce).    The metronome work that I have usually seen suggested for this type of purpose was far too hard for DD at the time (and there was no feedback to her - so she couldn't even tell she had missed the beat).

Brilliant!!!! I'm stealing that one!!!  :hurray: 

 

Adding: I did something similar with the alphabet, having him clap each letter as we said it and I pointed at the alphabet puzzle.  He has had a HORRIBLE time slowing down and clapping to a beat, but he can finally do it!  And you're right, there's no way to start into metronome work when you don't even have these more basic skills.  And yes, my hope was that I'd improve him ability to slow down and clap to a rhythm AND help him hear each alphabet letter distinctly.  So it makes total sense that would work for the math.  LOVE!!

[Heathermomster]

Oh good grief. With this kid I never know what I'm gonna get. We did one of the nines exercises in chapter 4 today from the Ronit Bird book and 2 problems in he says, "Oh, I get it! I see the pattern!"  and proceeds to derive the entire 9s table based on whatever pattern he identified in his head. Every time I worry about him struggling with something in math, eventually there is this huge click, usually in a weird way, and it is no big deal. I'm not even sure he did it right according to her material because he didn't build anything, but something about that method allowed him to see an intrinsic pattern and go from there. I think we might finish out these activities and just move into drill. I think he is actually a lot closer to being successful with quick recall than I realized.

 

We have done HOE already and loved it, but he flew through it at 8. If I could find something else like that I would use it in a heartbeat.

When moms talk about RB, the initial emphasis is the concrete manipulative.  RB's teaching approach is actually three-fold.  Once the concept is explained and understood with the manipulative, the student is expected to transition to the pictorial concept followed by the abstract concept.   It would appear your DS bypassed the pictorial step and leapt to the abstract understanding, which is awesome.  

[FairProspects]

When moms talk about RB, the initial emphasis is the concrete manipulative.  RB's teaching approach is actually three-fold.  Once the concept is explained and understood with the manipulative, the student is expected to transition to the pictorial concept followed by the abstract concept.   It would appear your DS bypassed the pictorial step and leapt to the abstract understanding, which is awesome.  

 

Oh ok, great. I wasn't sure we were doing it right, but it definitely did something for him!

[Timberly]

.

[Soror]

Fwiw ds was doing great yesterday with his times tables, I don't know what was going on (I posted another thread about that actually) because he had been doing great and then NOT and I had been reading here because I wondered if I needed to back it way up.