Physics frustrations, tedious calculations and labs

[Kendall]

My son is in the 3rd module of Apologia Advanced Physics on Newton's Law's of Motion. He is finding the problems very tedious and is frustrated by the time it is taking. He thinks he needs to change his intended major from engineering. I know he is probably exagerating his need to change his major, but I don’t want him to hate physics. He likes math and does well in it, it isn’t that.

 

I want to ask you all if he is doing what he should be or if he there is a quicker way. Because of the instructions about significant figures, if he needs to say multiply 3 numbers and then add that to another prodcut of 3 numbers you have to multiply, round, write it down; repeat with the second set and then add them together. So he can’t write down the entire equation and then enter it into the calculator. If he does that without the intermediary rounding, then his answers are off by small amounts. Does he have to stop and round every time he switches operations?

 

The second negative in physics is that he dreads the labs because of the lab write up. Should I let him just enjoy doing them for awhile with only minimal writing to renew his enjoyment or should we plod on as is. Any ideas?

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Kendall

[Guest Barb B]

Well, As far as calculations - even if he does all the calculations in a calculator - he should write down the steps anyway. On tests, I will give partial credit for wrong answers - if I can find where he went wrong, and he has all the equation/problem well documented. I guess I said in a long-winded way that he needs to show his work anywary. You get used to sig figures so it will get quicker.

 

We are doing some of the labs in the book (we are doing adv. physics). For those I have him write down data (in whatever form suites the data), write a summary, and then write his conclusion. That cuts down writing a little by not having tedius step by step proceedures. Also, we have a lab set from quality science labs that comes with a lab manual. This manual is meant to also be the write up as there is space for data, and space to write answers to questions and the conclusions.

 

Hang is there. Physics can be tough. But as Saxon says - its not really difficult just different.

 

Barb

[Kendall]

Barb,

 

Thanks so much for the encouragment. We will do as you suggest on writing the labs up and I think that will help.

 

 

On the significant figures issue. He is showing his work sufficiently I think. I’ll type an example . I’m going to leave out the units, but he is showing them.

 

 

1) T+[-.0250(sin35) - .0250(cos35)(.250)]-X=.0250(a)

 

Can he do the part in brackets on the calculator or does he have to have

 

2) T+ (.0143) - .005 –X

 

And then

 

3) T+.009-X

 

Or can he do the part in brackets on the calculator and go directly from 1 to 3. In this problem the answer isn’t different. In some problems maybe it will be a little different?

 

Thanks again!

 

Kendall

[Susan C.]

My son is in the 3rd module of Apologia Advanced Physics on Newton's Law's of Motion. He is finding the problems very tedious and is frustrated by the time it is taking. He thinks he needs to change his intended major from engineering. I know he is probably exagerating his need to change his major, but I don’t want him to hate physics. He likes math and does well in it, it isn’t that.

 

I want to ask you all if he is doing what he should be or if he there is a quicker way. Because of the instructions about significant figures, if he needs to say multiply 3 numbers and then add that to another prodcut of 3 numbers you have to multiply, round, write it down; repeat with the second set and then add them together. So he can’t write down the entire equation and then enter it into the calculator. If he does that without the intermediary rounding, then his answers are off by small amounts. Does he have to stop and round every time he switches operations?

 

The second negative in physics is that he dreads the labs because of the lab write up. Should I let him just enjoy doing them for awhile with only minimal writing to renew his enjoyment or should we plod on as is. Any ideas?

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Kendall

 

Kendall,

Let me share what happened with my son. It may or may not apply to your son. My son has graduated homeschool high school, and is a sophomore in college. Last year, he started the engineering path. In high school, he was straight As. But, I had to slow down math and science for him to keep up. Also, in math, we tried several programs trying to "find a fit." He still aced his tests, but I could tell he was going from memory and not getting it on a deeper level. He did Apologia science (biology, chemistry, physics (not advanced)). He couldn't get past module 11 or 12 in regular physics. He still liked math and science. In college, he took the advanced chemistry and calculus 1 that freshmen are supposed to take for engineering "weed out." He barely got Cs in both of them. They both moved way more quickly than he was used to. He said in 3-4 weeks they had covered most of the Apologia text he did in high school. Also, there was one lab per week in chemistry that was unrelated to the text that they had to come up with an experiment to prove the concept and do a full lab research report (every week!). Calculus 1 was every day, Mon-Thurs. with no time for "not getting it." He still tried Calculus 2, but failed it. He took, get this, poetry and art over the summer to wash out the F and did great. We have a liberal arts guy and didn't realize it. He changed majors to English and is much happier this year.

 

He did say that the kids on the engineering, pre-med, or science track are very driven, thrive on tons of work and lack of sleep. He is more laid back and creative, and it wasn't a good fit.

 

All of this to say that if you son has realized this, he is a year or so ahead of my son. Math and science majors are not for the faint hearted....if he is having trouble with tedious significant figures, that is nothing compared to what awaits him!

[periwinkle]

Kendall,

Let me share what happened with my son. It may or may not apply to your son. My son has graduated homeschool high school, and is a sophomore in college. Last year, he started the engineering path. In high school, he was straight As. But, I had to slow down math and science for him to keep up. Also, in math, we tried several programs trying to "find a fit." He still aced his tests, but I could tell he was going from memory and not getting it on a deeper level. He did Apologia science (biology, chemistry, physics (not advanced)). He couldn't get past module 11 or 12 in regular physics. He still liked math and science. In college, he took the advanced chemistry and calculus 1 that freshmen are supposed to take for engineering "weed out." He barely got Cs in both of them. They both moved way more quickly than he was used to. He said in 3-4 weeks they had covered most of the Apologia text he did in high school. Also, there was one lab per week in chemistry that was unrelated to the text that they had to come up with an experiment to prove the concept and do a full lab research report (every week!). Calculus 1 was every day, Mon-Thurs. with no time for "not getting it."

 

I will echo Susan's thoughts here. My oldest ds is a computer science major (which I think is a good fit for him), but the college he attends requires engineering physics and the whole calculus series for his major. He aced all his science and math in high school but is really struggling to get through these classes at college. Yes, they move very fast! If your ds does want to try to go into engineering, I would recommend getting through as much physics now as possible to prepare him for his freshman year.

 

Blessings,

Deb

[Guest Barb B]

Kendall, Most of the problems are better to do step by step on the calculator anyway. Even with my TI 84, we found that doing too much sin and cos at once will mess up the equation.

 

Barb

[Janet in WA]

 

All of this to say that if you son has realized this, he is a year or so ahead of my son. Math and science majors are not for the faint hearted....if he is having trouble with tedious significant figures, that is nothing compared to what awaits him!

Same here. My middle son, who was SURE he wanted to be a marine biologist found that what he really wanted to do was swim with dolphins -- not struggle through all the math and science he needed to actually earn a degree in marine biology. Turns out, his real gift is writing, and he changed his major after his freshman year of college to journalism.

[MyThreeSons]

I don't get caught up in the significant digits hype. If you go to Apologia's website and look at the Errata, you'll see that many of the Examples, On Your Own and Practice Problems' solutions were originally given with the incorrect number of significant digits. I have a tough time holding my students to a higher standard than the textbook's author/editor was able to attain. I explain that I want their answers to be reasonably precise, though.

 

As far as the lab reports go, I ask for four things:

 

their raw data -- measurements and observations made

sample calculations -- equations used, with one worked-out example for each

a summary of results -- often best presented in a table or graph

their conclusions -- what they learned from the lab, and an explanation of any discrepancies between expected and actual results

 

I specifically tell them I DO NOT want to see a rewrite of the supplies, procedure, etc. I don't have them turn in formal lab reports for all of the experiments, either.

 

HTH

[Kendall]

Thank you so much everyone. The input you have given about significant digits and lab will allow us to continue on. He already feels better about labs and we are talking about the significant digits. Thanks for sharing both views of the issue. The comments about what kind of child this is(liberal arts vs. engineering) has opened a whole new can of worms that was just waiting to be opened. We're going to do lots of talking about that issue.

 

You all are great! I don't know what I would do without these forums.

[Julie in MN]

I just wanted to add one more thing.

 

My son is an engineering graduate (Petroleum engineer)and he had very little science in high school (not homeschooled).

 

I feel strong math is essential, and high math test scores will get him into the school of his choice. I feel doing tons of math must be tolerable to the student who plans to succeed in engineering. However, I feel the science can wait if it needs to.

 

Julie

[Melissa in Australia]

I don't get caught up in the significant digits hype. If you go to Apologia's website and look at the Errata, you'll see that many of the Examples, On Your Own and Practice Problems' solutions were originally given with the incorrect number of significant digits. IHTH

 

 

thank you very much for this. I have printed off the corrections and put them in the text book.:001_smile:

[Guest Barb B]

I find I need to investigate sig. digits further. Last year we did saxon physics and that text had us not worry about sig digits while doing the equation (in fact to go beyond the sig. digits) and then to deal with sig. digits once the answer is found by looking at the sig. digits in the numbers given in the problem (and of course the type of operations done).

 

We aren't quite used to dealing with sig. digits during every step of the problem. I wonder if there is a difference really in which way it is done.

 

Barb

[Guest Barb B]

I know there is no right way to do this - but for us I am having DS do formal lab reports. That way by the time he is in college they are second nature. Just one less thing to get used to. We do labs on friday and I have him hand in the formal lab write up the following Friday (letting have a week to do them I feel is generous and takes the stress off). I just googled "high school lab write up" and got lots of samples and suggestions.

 

Barb

[Janet in WA]

Last year we did saxon physics and that text had us not worry about sig digits while doing the equation (in fact to go beyond the sig. digits) and then to deal with sig. digits once the answer is found by looking at the sig. digits in the numbers given in the problem (and of course the type of operations done).

That's the way I learned to do it in high school and college.

[bugs]

but as an engineering major you perform a lot of labs, so you gotta love 'em. And yes, engineering majors, etc are very driven. I remember that friends of mine in liberal arts programs received a ton of slack on their assignments (late turn-ins, etc) where NONE of my professors would accept a late assignment or if they did it was with a heavy penalty. My work load also seemed to be greater than my liberal arts friends.

[ChemMommy]

Because of the instructions about significant figures, if he needs to say multiply 3 numbers and then add that to another prodcut of 3 numbers you have to multiply, round, write it down; repeat with the second set and then add them together. So he can’t write down the entire equation and then enter it into the calculator. If he does that without the intermediary rounding, then his answers are off by small amounts. Does he have to stop and round every time he switches operations?

 

 

Sorry! That wasn't the answer you wanted to hear, I know. The rules for sigfigs for multiplication/division and addition/subtraction are different. If you want the rationale for the rules, I can show you. However, it is totally true that if you have to add in the middle of a series of multiplications, you have to stop, adjust your sigfigs (including rounding) and do the addition, stop, adjust sigfigs, and start multiplying again. That's just what you have to do.

 

You might look at shortening the lab reports, but, truly, if he is interested in engineering, he should be encouraged to do the calculations correctly and learn to efficiently write up lab reports. Better now, than in college!

 

Hang in there! I've never regretted majoring in science (chemistry, in my case). It's a blast!

[Sandra in NC]

http://www.chem.sc.edu/faculty/morgan/resources/sigfigs/index.html

[Guest Barb B]

From the tutorial posted: "In a long calculation involving mixed operations,carry as many digits as possible through the entire set of calculations and then round the final result appropriately."

 

That's what we learned in Saxon last year. We only differed in our answer when we didn't carry over as many digits throught the equation, when we carried over more digits then neccesary, then rounded the final results for sig. digits, we had the same answer as the answer key.

 

Barb

Edited September 20, 2009 by Barb B

[Kirsten in MO]

I was just on the website and couldn't find the corrections...could someone help me? My son is doing the advanced physics and if there are corrections I would sure like to know!

 

Thanks,

Kirsten

[Jean in Wisc]

This is probably not what you want to hear, but it is an option. My ds got behind in school his senior year. It was April, and he had only done 4 chapters in Physics. (He had done Chemistry 1st semester and was planning to do Physics 2nd.)

 

So what did he do? He worked ALL DAY LONG on Apologia Physics. This is not a math-wiz of a kid. But he worked and worked and worked until he had done all the problems and the test. He finished in 12 days--but then he went back and did all the labs afterwards. It was a nasty 12 days, but he was ALL DONE.

 

I kept asking everyone what alien had replaced my kid.

 

Who knows? Maybe your son would rather do it this way and get the whole thing behind him! Maybe not. It was probably just my family's quirks coming out in him. My dd did Chemistry the same way. Perhaps it is the "I am running out of time" adrenaline that enables them...

 

??

Jean

[Julie in MN]

It was a nasty 12 days, but he was ALL DONE.

 

:ohmy:

[Kendall]

Jean,

 

Thanks so much for sharing this. I don't think that will be the right plan for this child, but this has given me a great idea for another child! An Algebra fortnight...

 

Kendall

[MyThreeSons]

I was just on the website and couldn't find the corrections...could someone help me? My son is doing the advanced physics and if there are corrections I would sure like to know!

 

 

I found this on the Donna Young website. You will need your text to figure out the password:

 

http://www.donnayoung.org/apologia/schedule.htm#adv-phy

Edited September 22, 2009 by MyThreeSons
found it, sort of

[Kirsten in MO]

Thank you, My Three Sons, for giving me the link. I have printed it out and I know it will help clear up any confusion!

 

Blessings,

Kirsten