Curious, also, about creeds

[kah]

The discussion of Christianity seemed to focus in large part on salvation, although I did see one or two posts that alluded to whether the Methodist church would be considered "Christian"- which may relate to this...

 

I'm curious to know about people's perceptions about the dichotomy between churches which profess a Creed (generally thinking Nicene/Apostle's) and those which do not.

 

I'll say at the outset that I am Catholic, and was raised in a Catholic home in a region where most people were either Catholic or Jewish, so as a child "Christian" was very clear-cut and meant "Catholic or Protestant, not Jewish." "Protestant" was a lumped-together notion for me until high-school European History (which spent a great deal of time on the Reformation, but more as history than as theology.) In college, I took several very good history-of-Christianity courses, but again, the focus was more on the history and general facts about the theology of different denominations.

 

Even then, my understanding of Protestantism was mostly confined to Episcopalian/Anglican, Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, and Baptist (American Baptist, I guess). Furthermore, that was 20-25 years ago, and I have to admit, I've let a lot of that knowledge grow dusty.

 

I live in the South, now, and of course there are many Southern Baptist, Assembly of God, Church of Christ, and other churches in the area. Still, I never realized (even though I'd heard of anti-Catholicism in historical context- JFK and whatnot) that there were Protestants who considered Catholics not to be Christians. I did have an eye-opener when I stopped in a Christian bookstore in the mall one day, in search of children's books, and browsed the "Catholic interest" shelf- and was stunned to find it filled with "how Catholics are wrong"- but even then thought it was an anomaly.

 

Needless to say, I'm very new to this debate! :lol: But I do find it interesting and enlightening.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

I did have an eye-opener when I stopped in a Christian bookstore in the mall one day, in search of children's books, and browsed the "Catholic interest" shelf- and was stunned to find it filled with "how Catholics are wrong"- but even then thought it was an anomaly.

 

:ohmy::blink: Was this a chain store?

[KarenNC]

I think the difference you see in terms of having/not having a creed between those churches is primarily superficial, based on whether or not they *recite* a formal creed during a service. That has more to do with worship style than belief. Baptist, AoG, etc all do have creeds ---a set of common fundamental beliefs about what it means to be Christian---but they don't necessarily have a set recitation of them. Their worship style overall tends to be less formal and/or have less of a set liturgy.

[KarenNC]

:ohmy::blink: Was this a chain store?

 

Wouldn't surprise me at all. I can well remember 30 years ago going into a Christian bookstore in our town (I was raised very definitely Christian so this was not uncommon for me to do) and seeing the comic books proclaiming the Pope as the AntiChrist and responsible for the Holocaust. My parents were heavily into Jim and Tammy Bakker, Pat Robertson and the 700 Club, etc so this was not an unfamiliar viewpoint. It was, however, the last time I entered that store.

[Laurie4b]

I think the difference you see in terms of having/not having a creed between those churches is primarily superficial, based on whether or not they *recite* a formal creed during a service. That has more to do with worship style than belief. Baptist, AoG, etc all do have creeds ---a set of common fundamental beliefs about what it means to be Christian---but they don't necessarily have a set recitation of them. Their worship style overall tends to be less formal and/or have less of a set liturgy.

 

I think that is accurate from what I know. The Apostles' Creed would be common to the Orthodox, Catholic, mainline Protestant, evangelical, and Pentecostal churches, as would the Nicene Creed were the filoloque (sp?) removed (the Orthodox-Catholic split was over that.) Neither of those creeds spell out justification, which is one of the major differences between Protestants and Catholics.

 

I have seen a shift in the last 30 years or so with many, many fewer Protestants viewing Catholics as "not Christian." I think that view is much less common than it used to be.

Edited April 27, 2009 by Laurie4b

[Shelly in the Country]

The discussion of Christianity seemed to focus in large part on salvation, although I did see one or two posts that alluded to whether the Methodist church would be considered "Christian"- which may relate to this...

 

I'm curious to know about people's perceptions about the dichotomy between churches which profess a Creed (generally thinking Nicene/Apostle's) and those which do not.

 

 

 

I had a professor once who commented on the phenomenon of some Christians claiming to have "no creed but Christ". He said everyone has a creed. Even if you are dealing with someone who claims to hold to only the Bible, they believe something about what the Bible says. Once you move from the Bible to interpretation, you have a creed. When Jesus asked Peter, "Who do you say that I am?", Peter confessed a creed. Every church has a creed, even if it is not written down. I guess in many non-denominational churches one could have many different creeds milling about in a large group though since there is no body of creeds one would have to affirm to join the group (I know there are exceptions to this.). This would give the congregants some freedom in forming their own individual "creeds". The non-denominational churches I have been a part of over the years would sometimes have a real variety of opinions under one roof which can make for some interesting (or abhorent) church politics.

[kah]

:ohmy::blink: Was this a chain store?

 

It was. It wasn't a B & N/Borders type of chain store; more a Christian books/gifts kind of chain store. I think I know which one, but I'm not positive, so it's probably better if I don't throw a name out there. ;)

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

I can well remember 30 years ago going into a Christian bookstore in our town (I was raised very definitely Christian so this was not uncommon for me to do) and seeing the comic books proclaiming the Pope as the AntiChrist and responsible for the Holocaust.

 

Oh...my!

 

It was. It wasn't a B & N/Borders type of chain store; more a Christian books/gifts kind of chain store. I think I know which one, but I'm not positive, so it's probably better if I don't throw a name out there.

 

There are two new big Christian bookstores in my town. I am going to have to go in there to look. I naively thought that the mainstream stores like this would reflect a more mainstream type of Christianity.

[kah]

I guess in many non-denominational churches one could have many different creeds milling about in a large group though since there is no body of creeds one would have to affirm to join the group (I know there are exceptions to this.). This would give the congregants some freedom in forming their own individual "creeds". The non-denominational churches I have been a part of over the years would sometimes have a real variety of opinions under one roof which can make for some interesting (or abhorent) church politics.

 

I have seen some situations like that, by virtue of living in a small town. I guess that's partly what I'm wondering about. (I'm deleting faster than I can type trying to find a good way to say this! :) )

 

It seems, when I read about divisions among people who consider only the saved to be Christians and other branches of Christianity as "not really Christian"... that many or most seem to belong to the more loosely organized denominations or to non-denominational Bible churches. Is there something inherent in the more centrally-governed denominations, or in the idea of professing a creed as a part of worship that is somehow seen as not Biblical?

 

It just seems to me that, because the Bible is so full and rich, and because it encompasses such a long period of history, there is an opportunity to comb through it and find passages to support almost anything you want it to, and that without the governance of a church heirarchy it seems like each congregation- each individual, even- is kind of on it's/his/her own. So how is the continuity of the church maintained, without heresy and without division in the congregation.

 

(Not that you don't get division even with a heirarchy- ask 10 different Catholics of their opinion about kneelers!! :lol: )

[Shannon C]

I was raised to believe Catholics were not Christian, actually more "cultish". As I've grown and matured and studied on my own, I believe that there are Catholics that are Christian and some that are not, just as in any denomination. It's more about the heart and relationship with God/Christ. I do disagree with some Catholic things. I don't believe that if you are baptized as a baby and confirmed Catholic that it makes you a Christian and that you can go on your merry way and do what you want b/c you are "covered"--that is what my in laws think. They haven't attended mass in many years and don't even agree with the church on a lot of issues, yet they feel they are hooked up in Heaven so to speak. They call my church's communion "pretend communion" and think I've ruined their son because he no longer follows Catholicism--he did this before me though. I also believe that you can talk directly to God without asking through a saint or what not. In the end, for me, it's about Christ and forgiveness and where you stand with Him. I disagree with a lot of people that are Protestant too. There are so many differences in denominations.

[mommaduck]

It was. It wasn't a B & N/Borders type of chain store; more a Christian books/gifts kind of chain store. I think I know which one, but I'm not positive, so it's probably better if I don't throw a name out there. ;)

A lot of those stores, even the chain ones, are slanted towards one of two things:

 

views of the owner or majority of an area

 

or

 

what will sell (pop Christianity...usually a bunch of junk)

 

 

 

You'll find me in Borders looking at Calvin and Summa Theologica...even eyeballing a Stone's Torah (on my wishlist).

[Peek a Boo]

OI naively thought that the mainstream stores like this would reflect a more mainstream type of Christianity.

 

That hasn't been my experience....

 

trying to find some great Advent material at a non-Catholic Christian store leads to very Limited choices. :glare:

 

i will add that like any other business, we should feel free to speak up and share [kinda loudly, when it's crowded... ;)] why we will or will not be spending our money at that store. :)

[mommaduck]

i will add that like any other business, we should feel free to speak up and share [kinda loudly, when it's crowded... ;)] why we will or will not be spending our money at that store. :)

 

They won't care. If nothing else, they will view it like having someone of any other faith (outside of Christianity, though I consider Catholicism to be Christian) coming in and complaining about not selling books promoting their faith.

[Peek a Boo]

They won't care. If nothing else, they will view it like having someone of any other faith (outside of Christianity, though I consider Catholicism to be Christian) coming in and complaining about not selling books promoting their faith.

 

that's ok --it's not necessarily the owners you're out to change, but the one or two people in the store that might overhear you and say hey...yeah!

[mommaduck]

that's ok --it's not necessarily the owners you're out to change, but the one or two people in the store that might overhear you and say hey...yeah!

Hey yeah! I hear ya :D (I have the same problem with them...all I find around here is either anabaptist or charismatic and I'm neither)

[TXMomof4]

It just seems to me that, because the Bible is so full and rich, and because it encompasses such a long period of history, there is an opportunity to comb through it and find passages to support almost anything you want it to, and that without the governance of a church heirarchy it seems like each congregation- each individual, even- is kind of on it's/his/her own. So how is the continuity of the church maintained, without heresy and without division in the congregation.

 

(Not that you don't get division even with a heirarchy- ask 10 different Catholics of their opinion about kneelers!! :lol: )

 

My church doesn't have a church governing body. Each congregation is under the leadership of elders who are 'elected' by that congregation. There are certainly different 'personalities' to the congregations, some are super-conservative, some are more liberal. There are certainly cultural differences, but looking to the Bible as our source of direction has seemed to keep things pretty consistent.

[Peek a Boo]

It seems, when I read about divisions among people who consider only the saved to be Christians and other branches of Christianity as "not really Christian"... that many or most seem to belong to the more loosely organized denominations or to non-denominational Bible churches. Is there something inherent in the more centrally-governed denominations, or in the idea of professing a creed as a part of worship that is somehow seen as not Biblical?

 

It just seems to me that, because the Bible is so full and rich, and because it encompasses such a long period of history, there is an opportunity to comb through it and find passages to support almost anything you want it to, and that without the governance of a church heirarchy it seems like each congregation- each individual, even- is kind of on it's/his/her own. So how is the continuity of the church maintained, without heresy and without division in the congregation.

 

my experience has been that the more doctrinal the church, the more picky they are about others being truly saved. The non-denominational ones tend to be the ones who refuse to be picky about what one needs to be saved. Or are you saying that the hierarchal churches are the ones deciding the non denoms aren't saved?

 

as for your last sentence, i guess it depends on how you read the "don't let there be divisions among you" verse:

 

Romans 16:

17I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 18For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people.

 

**contrary to which teaching? is it possible for each person to have a different understanding of Christ so as to serve the Body more effectively? And by CAUSING divisions --instead of letting each part of the Body do its particular job its particular way-- we are in essence working against Christ as a whole?

------------------

1 cor 1:

10I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas[a]"; still another, "I follow Christ."

 

13Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul?

 

**substitute a denomination for each name he mentions.

 

**i don't think the "perfectly united" needs to be interpreted as "united like clones in everything we think about Christ" but can be interpreted as "united in knowing we each have different gifts/understandings of how our personal gifts are best used to help EVERYONE." We shouldn't be quarreling about differences -we should be united in realizing that in the end, it all boils down to Christ. Divisions come when we refuse to work w/ each other's differences *in Christ.* This thought is expounded in chapter 3:

 

4For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere men?

 

5What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. 7So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. 9For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.

 

10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

 

 

Chapter 11:

17In the following directives I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good. 18In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. 19No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval.

*now THAT bolded part sounds like snark from paul, but many churches seem to take it to heart. ;)

 

but back to your question:

 

So how is the continuity of the church maintained, without heresy and without division in the congregation.

 

Through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

 

How is it that our body functions so well, when so many of its systems work in COMPLETELY different ways from each other?

 

When Christ mentions the BODY i think He was talking more about the different denominations [systems] than he was individual members within those denominations[organs w/in a system]. The Catholic church serves one purpose, the Lutheran another, the Baptists have their function, the Mormons have theirs, etc. each one looks drastically different from the other [heart, kidney, brain, etc], and each belongs to different systems, but they each play a vital role in serving the Body.

 

Theologians call those differences heresy. i consider it a matter of different SYSTEMs.

Not every body part can belong to the same system.

When Christians figure that out, I think we'll do just fine w/o worrying about heresies or divisions. :)

and if i'm wrong, God can slap me upside the head and make me clean toilets w/ a toothbrush in heaven. :D

[asta]

I was raised to believe Catholics were not Christian, actually more "cultish". As I've grown and matured and studied on my own, I believe that there are Catholics that are Christian and some that are not, just as in any denomination. It's more about the heart and relationship with God/Christ. I do disagree with some Catholic things. I don't believe that if you are baptized as a baby and confirmed Catholic that it makes you a Christian and that you can go on your merry way and do what you want b/c you are "covered"--that is what my in laws think. They haven't attended mass in many years and don't even agree with the church on a lot of issues, yet they feel they are hooked up in Heaven so to speak. They call my church's communion "pretend communion" and think I've ruined their son because he no longer follows Catholicism--he did this before me though. I also believe that you can talk directly to God without asking through a saint or what not. In the end, for me, it's about Christ and forgiveness and where you stand with Him. I disagree with a lot of people that are Protestant too. There are so many differences in denominations.

 

You might want to check out the Catholic/Christian thread - knowledgeable Catholics do not believe as your in-laws do, nor does any Catholic believe that they can only talk to god through an intermediary.

 

 

asta

[Guest Virginia Dawn]

I had a professor once who commented on the phenomenon of some Christians claiming to have "no creed but Christ". He said everyone has a creed. Even if you are dealing with someone who claims to hold to only the Bible, they believe something about what the Bible says. Once you move from the Bible to interpretation, you have a creed. When Jesus asked Peter, "Who do you say that I am?", Peter confessed a creed. Every church has a creed, even if it is not written down. I guess in many non-denominational churches one could have many different creeds milling about in a large group though since there is no body of creeds one would have to affirm to join the group (I know there are exceptions to this.). This would give the congregants some freedom in forming their own individual "creeds". The non-denominational churches I have been a part of over the years would sometimes have a real variety of opinions under one roof which can make for some interesting (or abhorent) church politics.

 

When a church says it has "no creed but Christ" it means specifically that it does not have a written creed that each person must learn and be able to recite and that forms part of church doctrine. Of course each person has a set of beliefs and which is the technical definition of creed, credo- I believe. In that sense, even atheists have creeds. :-)

 

I attend a church that calls itself non-denominational, not for the purpose of creating an all institution inclusive of all shades of Christianity, but to point out that names themselves are divisive and not part of the original church.

 

There are many differing beliefs among the members of my church, but they are usually in the grey areas, areas that scripture does not address or where scripture is not clear. These are matters of opinion and not usually salvation issues.

 

Like another poster, we have a body of elected elders whose job it is to be the spiritual guides and leaders of the congregation. There is no central command, if you will. Even so, there is a remarkable consistency of basic doctrine throughout the various autonomous congregations. The wide variety of opinions on other matters is held to be the priveledge of our freedom in Christ. If there is strife and division, usually it is a result of the elders not doing their job properly, or individuals who have made it their purpose in life to be divisive.

 

Throughout the years, I've seen and heard a lot of teaching that I disagree with, but it is usually in the realm of opinion. I think that it would be that way no matter what brand of Christianity I ascribed to.

[Pip]

and am now Lutheran (Wisconsin Synod). I Have always said a Creed. So many churches that do not like creeds do have a "Statement of Beliefs" which is, in fact, a creed, just not the Apostle's, Nicene or Athanasian. I think the aversion to those 3 main creeds is an anti-Catholic backlash.

 

I see this backlash disappearing. Most of my family is Catholic and many attend churches which focus on salvation by Grace and not works righteousness. As Lutherans, we are liturgical and follow the order of the church year, just like the Catholics, but with a strong emphasis on Grace and the Bible. I notice a huge interest among my Evangelical friends in Advent and Lent and what they are. These have no "magical" powers, they are just times to help us focus on things in the church and it's history and why we do what we do. I think as the anti-Catholic bias disappears, we will see more acceptance of things once considered off limits by many Protestants.

 

As for non-believers, there are hypocrites in every denomination and only God can judge the heart. I honestly have no idea if someone's outward actions are to make themselves feel good or are a genuine response to the love of the Lord. I just take everyone at face value and leave the rest to Him.

 

Ann

[Shelly in the Country]

When a church says it has "no creed but Christ" it means specifically that it does not have a written creed that each person must learn and be able to recite and that forms part of church doctrine. Of course each person has a set of beliefs and which is the technical definition of creed, credo- I believe. In that sense, even atheists have creeds. :-)

 

I attend a church that calls itself non-denominational, not for the purpose of creating an all institution inclusive of all shades of Christianity, but to point out that names themselves are divisive and not part of the original church.

 

There are many differing beliefs among the members of my church, but they are usually in the grey areas, areas that scripture does not address or where scripture is not clear. These are matters of opinion and not usually salvation issues.

 

 

 

I understand this. I was just pointing out that some folks (usually trying to put down "lesser" Christians in denominations who adhere to a creed) will claim, in superior fashion, "Well, we have no creed but Christ." This is somewhat dishonest, because as you said, even in some non-denominational churches the members believe something about what the Bible says or who Christ is and they are in agreement on those things. This is a "creed" whether they decide to write it down and call it one or not. If a person walked in and wanted to join their church and begin a Bible study, but then asserted their belief that Jesus was really an alien from the planet Jupiter who wanted to gather a people to take with him there someday, that person would not be allowed to lead a Bible study and would get several folks praying for them and witnessing to them right quick. So they have a creed, they just haven't formalized it, so they shouldn't look down their noses on those of us who choose to catechise our children. I am no longer involved in non-denominational churches because of some bad experiences I've had (though I certainly don't claim my experience is true of all non-denoms). I was involved with one that had folks involved in the Word-Faith movement, but not all, which created division. I was involved with a second that had Pentecostals and Calvinists under one roof. That was a humdinger of an experience, let me tell you. All of that said, those churches were filled with loving Christian people. My dh and I were blessed to be involved with them. But if the disagreements become too wide, and the rhetoric from the pulpit gets too harsh towards those who disagree on the issues not pertaining to salvation, it can become quite unbearable for those who find themselves on the wrong side of the church leadership. We are actually in church limbo at the moment because we moved a few years ago and our denomination doesn't have any churches near us. We have been searching. There are a few non-denominationals in our area that we have visited. Truly, finding a church is just hard sometimes. By the way, I want to clarify and state I am not putting down those who choose not to catechise or write down their creeds. I'm just pointing out you have one whether it's formal or not. As you said, even an atheist has a creed.

[TXMomof4]

I'm going to show my complete insulation on this subject - and take from it what you may.

 

A friend gave me a cd of Rich Mullins greatest hits. One of the songs is "I Believe". I love that song. It is down to the brass tacks of my faith. I believe in the God the Father, Christ his only Son, I believe in the Virgin Birth, etc., etc. Boy, did it blow my mind when I realized it was a creed - the Nicean creed. Reciting a creed isn't part of my worship - but the facts of the creed are 100% true of my belief and my life. And putting it to music just made it all the better. I don't think that memorizing the creed would make me more committed, but it sure it a beautiful song.

[mommaduck]

I'm going to show my complete insulation on this subject - and take from it what you may.

 

A friend gave me a cd of Rich Mullins greatest hits. One of the songs is "I Believe". I love that song. It is down to the brass tacks of my faith. I believe in the God the Father, Christ his only Son, I believe in the Virgin Birth, etc., etc. Boy, did it blow my mind when I realized it was a creed - the Nicean creed. Reciting a creed isn't part of my worship - but the facts of the creed are 100% true of my belief and my life. And putting it to music just made it all the better. I don't think that memorizing the creed would make me more committed, but it sure it a beautiful song.

That song is actually called "Creed"...because it's THE Creed.

[Kelli in TN]

It seems, when I read about divisions among people who consider only the saved to be Christians and other branches of Christianity as "not really Christian"... that many or most seem to belong to the more loosely organized denominations or to non-denominational Bible churches. Is there something inherent in the more centrally-governed denominations, or in the idea of professing a creed as a part of worship that is somehow seen as not Biblical?

 

)

 

I cannot speak for all "more loosely organized denominations or to non-denominational Bible churches.". I do know that if there is a any anti-Catholic bias in my church it is not coming from the top. Our pastor has addressed this boldly as our membership comes from very diverse backgrounds. He has made statements like "I don't want to mess your theology (directed at any folks who might have an anti-Catholic bias) but I am pretty sure the pope will be in heaven when you get there." It sounds pretty smart alecky and irreverant, I know, but that is his preaching style and I understand the underlying sentiment was basically "knock off the prejudice, we don't do that in this house".

 

We do not recite creeds in our church as it is a very informal worship style.

 

I ran into a good bit of anti-Catholic bias when I was part of a southern, mainstream denomination that shall remain nameless. I have never run into anti-Catholic bias since leaving that denomination.

[Ravin]

I was exposed to quite a bit of the "Catholics aren't Christian" mentality when I was young. My grandfather owned a Bible bookstore, and sold all those horrible Chick Publications tracts and comics that made the Pope out to be the Antichrist, etc. He was Assembly of God by denominational membership. It rubbed me the wrong way even when I was a strongly salvation-believing Christian in junior high, because I knew my father had been raised Catholic, I had Catholic relatives on my dad's side, and my parents certainly never told me they were going to burn in Hell because they believed in works and not faith alone.

 

I also attended a small Christian school in middle school that taught these beliefs. They required students attend "Bible-believing" churches, and Catholic wasn't on the acceptable list. Both Lutheran and Presbyterian were, though those churches are quite different from the practices of the independent Baptist church that ran the school. They used a combo of ACE and A Beka curricula, and I can remember the church pastor/school principal telling us in Bible study class (which he taught and we had 3 days/week) that half of all Catholic priests were gay, and of course how wrong all that was, etc. I sometimes refer to my years at that school as "three years of well-meaning attempts to brainwash me". It didn't take. :tongue_smilie:

[Lovedtodeath]

 

It just seems to me that, because the Bible is so full and rich, and because it encompasses such a long period of history, there is an opportunity to comb through it and find passages to support almost anything you want it to,

This is too true. It can be avoided if one looks at the etire Bible as a whole and scrutinize the scriptures/ beliefs with all of the other scriptures before drawing conclusions.

[kah]

This is too true. It can be avoided if one looks at the etire Bible as a whole and scrutinize the scriptures/ beliefs with all of the other scriptures before drawing conclusions.

 

I agree. I think I even tried to add something like that, but the paragraph was already getting kind of cumbersome, and I couldn't seem to make it fit. :)