More ?'s about logic stage history

[Sunkirst]

I've read a bit about different history programs for the logic stage lately, and I'm wondering why folks are opting for a program instead of the approach outlined in TWTM (read, "Do I need to buy a logic stage history curriculum?).

 

What's the main reason for purchasing a logic stage history program? Ease of use? Religion?

 

For those of you who do use TWTM approach, is it difficult to implement? How do you tweak it for your homeschool?

 

If you were to purchase a few "add-ons" for WTM history, what would they be?

 

Thanks for helping me plan :)

[Colleen in NS]

For those of you who do use TWTM approach, is it difficult to implement? How do you tweak it for your homeschool?

 

If you were to purchase a few "add-ons" for WTM history, what would they be?

 

Thanks for helping me plan :)

 

I use the WTM approach, and I don't think it's difficult. I just had to get into a routine with it. I did tweak it.

 

We use SOTW as a spine. I read the chapter aloud, and have ds go read the corresponding KHE pages. I don't have him outline them, though. I think they're hard to outline, and if you search the boards, you can see that that is a common opinion. Instead, I have him outline from another related history book (library, encyclopedia article, whatever good writing we can find). So he does one history outline per week, and about one narration per week. I tried doing more narrations per week, but combined with lit. narrations and science narrations, I had to change my overall writing expectations - it was altogether too much. So - one outline and one narration per week for history for now. He marks dates from the KHE on a timeline and I try to remember to ask him what he marked and ask him what else was going on around the same time - looking the timeline over with him, if answers are forthcoming. :) I help him look for connections.

 

He does the Knowledge Quest black outline maps because I haven't figured out anything else to do that's historical map oriented. He also compares the KHE historical map with a modern globe and atlas, noticing differences. I try to remember to ask him about that, too.

 

And I *finally* started the other day to wrap my head around the "Primary Sources" section in WTM - I'm going to start implementing reading some primary sources with ds and asking him the questions in WTM about it and having him write about it.

 

Add ons for WTM history.....can't think of any that aren't mentioned in WTM - other than maybe purchasing books rather than borrowing from the library. Between the library and our used free World Book encyclopedia set, there's more than enough reading to enjoy! I guess an add on for me would be field trips. :) I'm perfectly content with the reading/timelining/mapping/thinking/writing model in WTM.

[Kissy]

I have chosen to use a curriculum for history this year (5th) we used BF Ancients and I did that because I wanted to make sure it had a Christian perspective and used the Bible. The Bible is a historical document and considered a primary source ;) . Next year I will be using History Odyssey and adding in some of the BF books and sonlight books. I chose HO because it would be mapped out for me and take less time for me to implement. If I went by WTM the only thing I would add in are some books from BF and sonlight so that the Christian perspective of church history is present.

[Colleen in NS]

The Bible is a historical document and considered a primary source ;) .

 

... so that the Christian perspective of church history is present.

 

Ah yes, this reminds me...I did find a book about church history that I want to include probably in a few more weeks (we're on ancient history) - actually, it's more a collection of stories of martyrs. So, biographies of people I might not have heard of on the WTM list.

 

And we do include a sort of Bible history course for 10 min. a day - it's R&S Bible series for grades 5 to 8. Dh goes over a page or so a day with ds, just looking things up and talking about the answers and putting interesting things on the timeline.

 

so I guess we do have add ons. :D

[SilverMoon]

I have a logic stage and a grammar stage kid running right now. I haven't purchased any other sort of history curriculum. We're still running SOTW, just going deeper and further in for my oldest son. I've been using the recommendations at Ambleside Online for most of his readings.

[Rhondabee]

I've read a bit about different history programs for the logic stage lately, and I'm wondering why folks are opting for a program instead of the approach outlined in TWTM (read, "Do I need to buy a logic stage history curriculum?).

 

What's the main reason for purchasing a logic stage history program? Ease of use? Religion?

 

For those of you who do use TWTM approach, is it difficult to implement? How do you tweak it for your homeschool?

 

If you were to purchase a few "add-ons" for WTM history, what would they be?

 

Thanks for helping me plan :)

 

 

I think the hardest part about doing TWTM is being confident that you are doing the right amount - not too much, and not too little. It's so much "saner" to know so-and-so-who's-done-this-before (whatever curriculum you choose) believes *this* amount of work is what a 5th grader (or 8th grader or whatever) is capable of producing at a level of excellence. It is hard to be confident when you're tired, and everyone needs you at the same time.

 

I have been much better at sticking to my guns since writing out six weeks of lesson plans at a time, rather than trying to wing it. It is time-consuming, but that is because of the reading. And, when we did SL, I always read everything anyway, so I was still "always planning" according to my dh. *I* just can't teach unless I've at least read the material and have a basic understanding of what's important for my dc to grasp.

 

I don't think I could have taught Logic stage history without SOTW, because we started in 5th grade, and I had never been through history in such a thorough way before. We have tried several tactics, but the one which suits us is to read/outline Kingfisher first. (But, we use the old one, and SWB doesn't really recommend outlining from the KHE anymore...) SOTW has always been our "Extra" Reading, and narration material.

 

With SOTW 3 and 4 I added in "Making of America", which is one of the history rec's. This year (SOTW-4) I am adding in "Growing Up in the People's Century" and a few odds and ends - whatever struck my fancy from the list at the end of the history chapter. I absolutely *don't* do everything!

 

However, I do Read-Alouds, and usually they are history related. I choose these from the WTM Supplemental Lit List, or Sonlight usually. This is our favorite part of school, and it makes history easy-to-remember. I highly recommend it! (Again, we don't do one for *everything* - there isn't time!)

 

We don't really do the "go to the library and find info on what interests you"; I wish we did, but my kids are not motivated enough to do that! They have learned alot without it, though.

 

I do wish I had bought at least one Jackdaw - just to see it, and see how to do primary sources "right" - LOL! Then, decide is it worth it or not for me. Primary sources have been hard to do, and I wonder if having the Jackdaw would give me some needed hand-holding. (Ah, well, I get to start again next year - :D)

 

Best wishes!

[mcconnellboys]

I have always used WTM suggestions rather than some sort of set curriculum. I like putting together my own things and reading from a wide variety of authors. I don't want to feel tied to doing a certain amount of writing or certain types of writing each week, etc. I'm such a task master that I haven't ever worried about doing "enough", LOL. I know that compared to other schools I do enough. Perhaps Draconian is my middle name.....

[Lovedtodeath]

I think most History curriculums spend way more time on History than what TWTM recommends.

[coffeegal]

I've read a bit about different history programs for the logic stage lately, and I'm wondering why folks are opting for a program instead of the approach outlined in TWTM (read, "Do I need to buy a logic stage history curriculum?).

 

For those of you who do use TWTM approach, is it difficult to implement? How do you tweak it for your homeschool? I've found TWTM approach to be simpler than the program we were using. I read SOTW to all my children once a week, and we complete the mapwork in the activitiy guide at the same time. In addition, my logic stage children outline Kingfisher as per their grade, and write a composition as recommended by TWTM. My 5th grader is working on 2 paragraph compositions while my 6th grader writes 1-2 pages. I've found the additional history book recommendations in the activitiy guide invaluable for the Logic stage. My older boys will pick up the extra books on Mongols, or China and happily thumb through the books or use them for the compositions. My 2 grammar stage children ignore the books.

 

If you were to purchase a few "add-ons" for WTM history, what would they be? I use "All Through The Ages" by Christine Miller quite a bit to find historical fiction or biographies on an appropriate level for my 5th and 6th graders.

 

Thanks for helping me plan :)

 

:001_smile:

[mcconnellboys]

Hmmmm, I haven't checked WTM in a while regarding amount of time spent on history, but I believe if you're reading on topics, as suggested, that you'd fill out your program nicely. We probably spend about 15 hours a week history reading and writing.

[SkiMom]

I wish I could find a pre-planned history program because it would make life easier...but I can't find one that fits us just right...and besides, I am planner and a tweaker, and I really do enjoy putting my own plan together. So...I plan on sticking pretty close to the WTM rec's along with either Streams of Civilization or Mystery of History for the Christian worldview. I will also add Sonlight's Core 6 & 7 readers and read alouds and perhaps some additional books from Veritas Press if we have time. I hope to add in a few hands-on projects because my dc like doing them and it keeps history "fun" for them. I'm not sure what to do about primary sources yet, but I did purchase Ancient History from Primary Sources by the Bluedorn's to give me some ideas. I am also considering Diana Waring's CD's as an extra. HTH!

 

 

I also have a related question for Colleen and Rhondabee...did you use SOTW for grammar stage as well as logic stage? TIA!

[Rhondabee]

I also have a related question for Colleen and Rhondabee...did you use SOTW for grammar stage as well as logic stage? TIA!

 

 

When we started hs'ing my boys were in 2nd and 5th grades. They're now in 5th and 8th (yikes!). We are finishing up our first time thru the history rotation and SOTW-4 this year, and I am conscientiously ignoring the fact that I am in utter denial that I will have to plan for my soon-to-be 6th grader and face the dreaded question, "Will we repeat SOTW-1?" :lol:

 

Seriously, earlier this year my 5th grader wanted to dump SOTW-4 he was so enamoured with Kingfisher (again, we use the old one). Now that the newness has worn off, he likes our current plan of mixing the two, and after posting above I asked him did he *want* to repeat SOTW-1. Like all things school his response was, "I don't know, Mom. You're the teacher. You tell me what to do, remember?" :glare:

 

So, I think I'm going to wait until the new edition of WTM comes out before I decide for sure. I would *like* to do a more student-researched logic stage for him since he has those stories embedded somewhere already as background (unlike my older ds). But, if we end up depending on SOTW for that research, then I know we'll still be in good shape, you know?

 

hth!

[Rhondabee]

I think most History curriculums spend way more time on History than what TWTM recommends.

 

:iagree:

 

WTM recommends about 3 hours a week of history. I end up doing a lot of trimming of what I'd *like* to do because I try to keep this time frame in mind.

 

We do history almost daily, but only for 30-45 minutes. And, if my "dream plans" exceed that in reality, I cut them on the spot, or let it slide into the next day. I do squeeze in a bit more via Read-Alouds and assigning history topics instead of the suggested writing topics in R&S.

 

There is just only so much one mom with 3 kids can do time-wise. ;) Of course, YMMV, IMHO, and different strokes and all that. It's all good!

[HiddenJewel]

Isn't History Odyssey level 2 close to what WTM recommends?

[Lovedtodeath]

Hmmmm, I haven't checked WTM in a while regarding amount of time spent on history, but I believe if you're reading on topics, as suggested, that you'd fill out your program nicely. We probably spend about 15 hours a week history reading and writing.

 

Right. The independant reading revolves around History, but is called "reading", not history on the schedule, so there is more than meets the eye. I forgot that for a while.

[WTMindy]

The reason that I went with a program rather than just WTM suggestions is that the method seemed so dry on its own. We spent the last four years LOVING history with SOTW and the AG and it seemed like a very harsh transition to go to just outlining and the other recommendations. So, in my research I decided to go with TOG which I feel encorporates the ideas of WTM and yet still has a lot of suggestions for the fun things (projects/great historical fiction, etc) that made my kids love history!!

[coffeegal]

Like all things school his response was, "I don't know, Mom. You're the teacher. You tell me what to do, remember?" :glare:

 

 

Excuse me for a second, but...:rofl: how many times have I heard variations of that statement! :lol:

[Colleen in NS]

I'm not sure what to do about primary sources yet, but I did purchase Ancient History from Primary Sources by the Bluedorn's to give me some ideas. I am also considering Diana Waring's CD's as an extra. HTH!

 

 

I also have a related question for Colleen and Rhondabee...did you use SOTW for grammar stage as well as logic stage? TIA!

 

Hi, nice to see you again!

 

I did use SOTW for grammar stage...I think I found it when ds was in 2nd grade. So we did 2, 3, and 4. This year is book 1, and unless I come up with another idea, we'll stick with it through his 8th grade, because I'm also taking dd through it. It's mostly the spine (and then narration material for dd) to tell him what to read in KHE and then from KHE, what topics to read lib. books or encyclopedia articles about. So for ds, SOTW leads to KHE, and KHE leads to scads of topics to read and write about.

 

Rhonda and SkiMom....can we talk about primary sources? It's been bugging me since last summer that I need to do this primary source thing with ds, but I haven't looked into it yet. I finally dug out my WTM the other day to see what it had to say in depth, and to look up that fordham site listed in there as an alternative to the expensive Jackdaw packets. I never even noticed before the questions at the bottom of WTM p. 273 and the rest of the instructions on p. 274!! It basically says have the student read the primary source, answer the questions (I assume with me) and write the answers on a sheet of paper, and through this process he will learn to evaluate the document. How easy could that be??!! Have either of you tried this? And on p. 306 it describes what's in the Jackdaws and the only thing I see that would be really useful to me would be the document, transcripts of anything that might be hard to read, and maybe notes about the background. I'm thinking I could find this stuff on my own? It seems to me that at the very heart of it is reading the document and asking and answering questions about it. So maybe you don't go through every document for every time period, but you get some practice on the critical thinking part of it?

 

I also looked at that fordham site listed in WTM - there is lots of good info. there - I printed out a couple of articles about how to read a primary source and why it's important to study them. They're in depth, but my outlining skills are getting better (whoo hoo!) so I might go through and pick out what I really need to know right now, and just have that info. sitting in my head so that I can lead ds through the process.

 

Have you guys tried any of this yet? How is it going? What are your ideas?

[Colleen in NS]

I must say, too, that I'm starting to get the hang of this "picking it apart and discussing it" part of history (so it'll probably carry over into science and lit. and art and music and religion). This morning ds and I were going through a World Book encyclopedia article on Buddha so he could do a one level outline. (He picked Buddha to write about after reading his KHE pages) The outlining thing is going much more easily now, and so I am able to notice other things now instead of inwardly panicking about how to help him with the next paragraph :lol:. I noticed where a sentence said that Buddha (Sidhartha) had visions and left his wife and newborn baby to go find enlightenment. Well, instead of just skimming over that, I jumped on it and said to ds, "So! Look what it says here about the guy leaving his wife and baby to find religious enlightenment - did you notice that?? - whaddya think about that? How do you think the wife felt? What about the baby? Do you think that he was right to do that, given how his family must have felt? After all, humans generally don't like to be rejected...." and so forth - I'm getting more comfortable with noticing things and actually COMING UP WITH QUESTIONS to use to talk with him about things!! It was so cool!

[JaneNickerson]

Hi, I would like to talk about primary sources, too. :)

I have a few Jackdaws that the local high school was recycling! :eek:

I think they are "cool" but I don't really know what to do with them.

"The North-West Passage" contents:

1. list of contents with questions and rec reading

2. photo of section of 1527 globe

3. painting from 1577 of Inuit attacking Frobisher

4. maps and charts

5. inscription for back of map

6. letter from John Davis reporting expedition

7. diagrams of ships

8. sample of fool's gold

9. five broadsheets (articles)

Does anyone else use Jackdaws? Where is the best place to get them in Canada (esp NS or Maritimes)?

[Colleen in NS]

I have a few Jackdaws that the local high school was recycling! :eek:

 

SERIOUSLY?? HERE????

 

Where is the best place to get them in Canada (esp NS or Maritimes)?

 

I guess I need to call my local high school!!

[JaneNickerson]

Colleen, I am also wondering about finding transcripts and documents on my own. Esp since jackdaws are pricey. Did you find any good sites for this?

I found http://www.democracy250.ca

[SkiMom]

I hate to admit it but I know very little about primary sources, except what I have read in TWTM. To be honest....the thought of them is scaring me senseless...and I am just kind of ignoring the whole issue...hoping it will all go away....sigh.:001_unsure:

 

My ds isn't great with reading comprehension and is a more of a science/math kid, so I am thinking that we will take a "lite" approach to primary sources. By this I mean, I don't plan on doing a whole bunch of them, and I plan on doing the work together as much as possible...at least the first year to see how he handles them. I haven't looked at a Jackdaw's portfolio yet, but it sounds like they might work for us. The Bluedorn book looks like a great reference tool...but it scares me because I know so little about primary sources myself.

 

Honestly, I haven't really looked into it too much yet, so I am here gleaning what I can from all of you!:bigear:

[SkiMom]

Nice to see you too Colleen!

 

Thanks to both you and Rhondabee for answering my question. It sounds like you are both in a similar positions to me regarding SOTW. I already decided that I don't want to use it again, but I'm not totally happy with any of the other alternatives either. I can't wait to see what SWB's new rec's are.

[Rhondabee]

Isn't History Odyssey level 2 close to what WTM recommends?

 

 

We did a few weeks of HO Year 2 when ds was in 6th grade. And, technically, it kind of follows WTM. It does have students outlining KHE, and creating reports on various subjects. And, there are some other books thrown in for "extra research", some primary excerpts, and a few lit books - tho' not nearly as many as on the WTM Lit list.

 

It did not suit our needs because ds had not been through the "stories" of history, and so the outlines and reports were about meaningless names and events - there was no background knowledge to build upon. So, it was very boring!

 

It is also very "rigorous". Personally, I think they ask for too many mini-reports and the extra reading (Story of Mankind?) is on a much higher level than the average supplement book listed at the end of the history chapter in WTM. I did like having the timeline and map work decided. And, I *liked* the ideas for the mini-reports, but I would just cross some out. (I like that in WTM the child gets to *choose* what interests him and run with that, rather than being told, "research THIS.")

 

But, our experience was shadowed by the fact that we got a late start to homeschooling, and had many gaps to fill in. If you have a really bright, loves-to-write, strong reader who is familiar with the story of history, then it might be great for you!

 

ETA: FYI, HO is also set up by region (study one area from A-Z, then study the next from A-Z) rather than chronologically, which made it hard to combine with my younger one, who was using SOTW-2.

[Rhondabee]

Yes, I have used the fordham site in the past, along with websites about particular people/events. And I have also picked up a couple of primary source books off Amazon. (they just popped up as "you might be interested in these") There have also been primary sources in many of the supplemental books from the library, and speeches and letters and such.

 

I even had a Word document on my old computer that had the WTM questions printed out with space for ds to write in. But, he never wrote very much! We could discuss it - just like you mentioned your discussion about Buddha - it just never seemed to get written down. And so, I don't think I got everything I *should* have gotten out of them. Like, if I had just been a better planner (how many times did I find something interesting *after* we'd already left that person/event far behind?!?!) that he would have *enjoyed* primary sources. (ha - I can hear him say now he *never* enjoys school!) Or, maybe I'm just nervous because I can't *prove* that we did them? (shrug!)

 

I guess, looking back, that my ds does realize what primary sources are and how they're used. We've touched on them, they just haven't been central. And, given that WTM says to choose *two* Jackdaws, maybe they're not *supposed* to be central? I *do* think that too often, though, we (the board) focus on outlining and reports, and ignore the primary sources, and that they could probably really liven up logic stage history if there were a more user-friendly format for them.

 

Thankfully, in planning ahead for 9th grade Ancients, I have been relieved to see that there are many primary sources in Western Civ, and SWB gives her own analysis of some more obscure sources in History of the Ancient World. Those are priceless because she discusses how historians take two or more differing accounts and then deduce what probably *really* happened.

 

Definitely food for thought. Maybe I'll have to put 9th grade aside for a bit, and plan some 6th....

[Mommyfaithe]

I have used Primary Sources the way the WTM recommends by making up a work sheet of the questions and the reading through the document with my child. I have learned so much!!! Ok...maybe my dd's did too :D but I was the one who was fascinated. I was really intimidated when we started, but we have read all sorts of PS's and have lived to tell the tale.

I have found if we read them slowly and carefully, they are not so difficult to understand. I found most of my material online or at the back of those old textbooks that are sitting gathering dust on my shelves. We preferred copies printed off the internet, so we could circle, underline, and further mark up and mar the copies.

 

We especially loved reading our founding documents and legal transcripts from colonial America. The journal of Mary Rowlandson and the transcript of Anne Hutchinson were awesome. We also love reading Lincoln's Speeches. Our all time favorites though were the letters of correspondence from Abigail Adams to her husband John.

 

This is like other things the WTM way...like Latin and science...once you dig in...you get hooked.

 

Good luck and have fun!

Faithe

[Jenny in Florida]

For those of you who do use TWTM approach, is it difficult to implement? How do you tweak it for your homeschool?

 

Okay, I usually refer to our approach as "WTM inspired." I read the WTM, and I love the core of the ideas, but we just have to do things our own way.

 

So, in terms of history, the things we kept from the WTM approach include the four-year cycle (although I'm not above tweaking that, if it seems necessary), the emphasis on literature and primary sources, the coordination of literature and history, the rigorous academic approach and probably some other stuff that's not coming to mind at the moment.

 

I don't find it difficult to implement, because I'm perfectly happy to adjust it for our family. In fact, I love planning my own so much and am so happy with how I can create the perfect plan for my child that I can't imagine ever finding it necessary to buy a package.

[Colleen in NS]

I have used Primary Sources the way the WTM recommends by making up a work sheet of the questions and the reading through the document with my child. I have learned so much!!! Ok...maybe my dd's did too :D but I was the one who was fascinated. I was really intimidated when we started, but we have read all sorts of PS's and have lived to tell the tale.

I have found if we read them slowly and carefully, they are not so difficult to understand. I found most of my material online or at the back of those old textbooks that are sitting gathering dust on my shelves. We preferred copies printed off the internet, so we could circle, underline, and further mark up and mar the copies.

 

We especially loved reading our founding documents and legal transcripts from colonial America. The journal of Mary Rowlandson and the transcript of Anne Hutchinson were awesome. We also love reading Lincoln's Speeches. Our all time favorites though were the letters of correspondence from Abigail Adams to her husband John.

 

This is like other things the WTM way...like Latin and science...once you dig in...you get hooked.

 

Good luck and have fun!

Faithe

 

So, what would be baby steps I could take to do an ancient history primary source or two? What would be ancient primary sources?

 

This post was so encouraging for me to read!

[Matryoshka]

I really like the two series "The World in Ancient Times" and "The Medieval and Early Modern World" - each series has a book of primary sources that are referenced in the main volumes. I'm planning on taking the regular series books out of the library, but I bought the two Primary Source books, as we'll reference them throughout the year. I'm planning on using K12's Human Odyssey series as a spine, but using these books to go deeper.

 

I'm also thinking of purchasing this book.

[Colleen in NS]

Colleen, I am also wondering about finding transcripts and documents on my own. Esp since jackdaws are pricey. Did you find any good sites for this?

I found http://www.democracy250.ca

 

I quickly searched that fordham site the WTM lists - I just haven't had a chance to actually look at documents - just how to study them. I think between that site and the questions in WTM, I'm going to give it a try soon - it's not looking so intimidating now. Maybe I'll even figure out how to find them in the library....

 

That NS site looks interesting! It will come in useful when we do later history - thanks!

 

I even had a Word document on my old computer that had the WTM questions printed out with space for ds to write in. But, he never wrote very much! We could discuss it - just like you mentioned your discussion about Buddha - it just never seemed to get written down. And so, I don't think I got everything I *should* have gotten out of them. Like, if I had just been a better planner (how many times did I find something interesting *after* we'd already left that person/event far behind?!?!) that he would have *enjoyed* primary sources. (ha - I can hear him say now he *never* enjoys school!) Or, maybe I'm just nervous because I can't *prove* that we did them? (shrug!)

 

I guess, looking back, that my ds does realize what primary sources are and how they're used. We've touched on them, they just haven't been central. And, given that WTM says to choose *two* Jackdaws, maybe they're not *supposed* to be central? I *do* think that too often, though, we (the board) focus on outlining and reports, and ignore the primary sources, and that they could probably really liven up logic stage history if there were a more user-friendly format for them.

 

I looked in my trusty WTM again this morning and noticed one more little previously overlooked by me statement on p. 290: "Evaluating primary resources can take the place of outside reading and notebook-page creation for as long as necessary." Same thoughts on p. 295 and sort of on p. 298. I'm interpreting that for us to mean, "use primary sources as *one part of* the fodder for your regularly scheduled writing times." Meaning, one writing time can be for history narration, another could be for history outlines, another could be for writing a narration about primary sources, another could be for a lit. narration, another could be for a science outline, another could be for a science narration, a science experiment writeup, an artist or composer bio., a R&S writing lesson. IOW, rotate all these things and they won't *all* happen *every* week and that's OK, Colleen:D. If writing times are consistent every week, all these different types of writing can be rotated through. This is MUCH easier on my head (as long as I understand what I'm supposed to be doing with each type of writing - MUCH thanks to you over the years!!) than trying to cram in many outlines and narrations from the different content areas, science exp. writeups, writing program lessons every week. Now I think I'm going to try folding primary source eval./writing into our writing rotation. Finally!