What does German history look like?

[Mommy22alyns]

I'm doing some personal reading on the Holocaust and found myself wondering this afternoon - what does German history look like? When that period of time is addressed for German students, what are they taught? I'm curious what a different perspective on the matter looks like - in the same way I might wonder what British students are taught about the Revolutionary war.

 

I know we have some very educated people here from a wide variety of backgrounds, so I figured someone here might know or be able to point me in the right direction. :)

 

I know this could be a sensitive subject, but hopefully it can stay academic.

[newlifemom]

I think one of the most important things to understand in German history (Euro Hist major - just a little German his.) is that it was not a fully formed country until ummm trying to remember, say 17thc. It was a conglomeration of little states. During the major state making time of late 17th c. and early 18th c a lot of countries in Europe had revolutions/changes of power to some degree or another. Germany didn't. Trying to define statehood was not then a set of ideals, but more of a nationalistic feeling. America - melting pot Great Britain- empire around the world Germany -German. If memory serves me correctly, when they (leaders Bismark(ugghh spelling please)) used nationality and language as a basis for becoming Germany. Granted this came pretty much from one prof in college who was decidedly post-modern in thinking, but I think the ideas certainly have some merit. A whole lot has to go into creating something like the Third Reich, in this case, the First and the Second Reich were main contributers, but really Statehood and citizenship played a huge role IMHO.

[st_claire]

It has really changed there over the years. First, it was do not talk about it. Then it was guilt. Now it's pretty much like it is here. It is covered, but not with any real depth or period works. Students learn what happened, but do not understand why at all.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I'm doing some personal reading on the Holocaust and found myself wondering this afternoon - what does German history look like? When that period of time is addressed for German students, what are they taught? I'm curious what a different perspective on the matter looks like - in the same way I might wonder what British students are taught about the Revolutionary war.

 

I know we have some very educated people here from a wide variety of backgrounds, so I figured someone here might know or be able to point me in the right direction. :)

 

I know this could be a sensitive subject, but hopefully it can stay academic.

 

If you are asking if it is glossed over, the answer is no. Holocaust education is part of every single grade in German schools. Also military service is universal* and a part of the basic training includes a module that discusses the holocaust and the individual responsibility to not just go along with orders that go against human rights. A visit to a camp is part of this training. Also at several of the camps we visited, there were education packets available for sale.

 

In my opinion, there is a bit of a reaction to this. The younger generations are beginning to ask how long they personally will be held morally deficient for the choices their grandfathers made.

 

 

* (It's not a draft , but a universal service obligation most do the military time, although you can petition to serve your duty in a civil capacity intead - for example working in a geriatric home or as a firefighter.)

[Spy Car]

Holocaust denial is serious crime in Germany.

 

It is my impression (as an American and not a German) that the horrible atrocities committed under the Third Reich are taught to school-children.

 

Where the Germans have not really come to terms with their past is in resolving (or admitting) just how extensive the knowledge of the German public was in regards to the death-camps, and the mass murder that was happening in their midst.

 

There seems to be a willingness to blame the holocaust on the "Nazis" as an isolated group, and to absolve the general populace under claims of "we knew nothing." These claims just don't hold up well to historical scrutiny.

 

I'm sure young Germans to some degree chafe at bearing the guilt of their grandparent's, but in large measure those grandparent's did their best to evade responsibility themselves for their own roles in supporting a regime who's evil nature was (beyond) clear. That moral reckoning has never come, and likely never will. Sad to say.

 

Bill

[Colleen]

It is covered, but not with any real depth or period works. Students learn what happened, but do not understand why at all.

 

Are you basing this on firsthand experience; the experience of those you know; or...?

[Colleen]

There seems to be a willingness to blame the holocaust on the "Nazis" as an isolated group, and to absolve the general populace under claims of "we knew nothing."

 

To clarify, this is your impression from afar, right? (I know you noted that your impressions are those of an American, not a German; just wondering if you have any closer familiarity with the general tone, etc.)

 

Btw, don't neglect the members of the general populace who didn't claim to know nothing; people whose resistance efforts and attempts to assert change were futile.

[Spy Car]

 

To clarify, this is your impression from afar, right? (I know you noted that your impressions are those of an American, not a German; just wondering if you have any closer familiarity with the general tone, etc.)

 

Btw, don't neglect the members of the general populace who didn't claim to know nothing; people whose resistance efforts and attempts to assert change were futile.

 

This is my impression from afar, growing up in America in a family with German and Swiss-German roots on both sides.

 

My ancestors emigrated to this country in either the eighteenth or early nineteenth centuries, so I claim no "special" insight into 20th Century German mind. I did, however, grow up wondering how people who I had to some degree accept as "my people" could commit such horrible crimes, and I felt it my duty to understand as best I was able how this happened.

 

I do not claim to be a leading authority on the holocaust, but nor am I ignorant on the subject. And I've very much wanted to understand what the German people knew, and how they either conformed to, aided and abetted, or resisted the Third Reich.

 

I understand many Germans resisted the Nazis, and those who did so openly paid a terrible price. But having known many Germans, and having a father who speaks German who spent time in post-war Germany and knowing what he's told me, and from fairly extensive reading of my own, it seems to me that (to somewhat over generalize) that the Germans have owned up to the crimes, but have blamed the Nazis. And have never really admitted the truth about how widely known the crimes of the Third Reich were at the time.

 

This part of the history has (from my judgement at far remove) never been dealt with openly and with full candor.

 

Bill

Edited March 4, 2009 by Spy Car

[dirty ethel rackham]

Holy cow.

 

Well, maybe things have changed. My husband was born and lived in Germany until he was 28. German history was talked about as early as first grade. You know, all the gory videos they show us in the states in high school or college? Those were shown to first graders as part of German class. Yes, that is right...German language class, not history. As if THIS is what it means to be German.

 

I personally think that is a bit TOO much and I'm really amazed that you have such a radically different thing to say about it.

 

Well, actually, I think that your post illustrates exactly what she was trying to say - the GUILT phase. How better to instill a national sense of guilt than to pound in that message to very young children?

[Michelle in MO]

I believe Germans still have a very difficult time dealing with this period of history, but neither do they sweep it "under the rug". When I studied German history, language, and culture in college, every single professor spoke in detail about the Holocaust and the Nazi regime; several of them had personally suffered under that regime. I remember distinctly some of these professors taking umbrage with certain American interpretations of what "really happened" over there. When the miniseries "The Holocaust" came out in the 1980's, many Germans were made to watch the program and were asked afterwards for their reactions.

 

I would say that there were varying degrees of knowledge and understanding among the populace about what was really happening. There were indeed some who were unaware of the depth of the brutality that was taking place, and only later realized the full depth of the horror. Obviously there were some who were complicit, to varying degrees. But, I believe---and I know my professors fully believed---that generalizations about this complicity, especially by Americans, were not altogether fully informed.

 

As Colleen pointed out so clearly, there were indeed some Germans who resisted the Nazis, usually at the cost of their lives. I've mentioned these names before, but people like Martin Niemoller, Hans und Sophie Scholl, Professor Kurt Huber, Christoph Probst, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Father Maximilian Kolbe, Count von Stauffenberg, General von Tresckow, and others. When the Nazis took power, Bertolt Brecht left Germany and used his plays to highlight his opposition to the Nazis. I may be wrong about this citation, but when he was asked why he did not return to Germany and oppose the regime from there, as others were doing, he reportedly stated, "Because I am a coward, I am a coward, I am a coward." To stay and resist was to invite almost certain death.

 

Really, I don't feel I'm in any position to judge the average German who lived during the Third Reich and what they may or may not have done. Having never been in such a perilous position myself, I'm loathe to state how courageous I would have been if I had lived in Germany during that time period. And, I believe the country as a whole has displayed great tenacity in trying to face this period of history. It has been a bitter pill for them to swallow.

 

So, when I look at this period of history, I try to focus in on those who resisted.

[Spy Car]

My feeling is that when a nation puts itself in the hands of an evil fanatic, wages war upon its neighbors, and murders millions and millions and millions based on some hateful ideology, that it is appropriate (and morally edifying) for that nation to experience national shame and guilt.

 

What's the alternative?

 

Bill

[hornblower]

I've mentioned these names before, but people like Martin Niemoller, Hans und Sophie Scholl, Professor Kurt Huber, Christoph Probst, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Father Maximilian Kolbe, Count von Stauffenberg, General von Tresckow, and others.

 

Just for the record, Fr. Maximillian Kolbe was not German. He was Polish.

 

As a Pole, I'll add this to the conversation - ALL of Europe is still wrestling with the anti-semitism which pervaded European thinking at that time, and certainly has not been completely eradicated.

 

Poles have been grappling with recent scholarly investigations into the Jedwabne pogrom, for instance, in which it was Poles who killed their Jewish neighbours.

[Michelle in MO]

Just for the record, Fr. Maximillian Kolbe was not German. He was Polish.

 

True. I was rattling off the list of names that frequently comes to mind in these kinds of discussions.