tibbyl Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 Do you believe in God? I am a natural atheist. I am firmly convinced that there are no supernatural entities or occurrences because I have not found any objectively verifiable evidence of the existence of such. But it is fun to ponder. Humans created gods as a coping skill for living with the anxiety and stress of an indifferent universe. And who could blame them? It is calming to believe that ultimately justice will be meted out. Even as a young person, I was not able to give myself to magical wishful thinking for the sake of peace and comfort and alleged eternal life. I could not make myself "believe in" a deity anymore than I could in Santa, the Tooth Fairy, gnomes, leprechauns, etc. For me, wanting something to be true was not reason enough to believe. Why do you believe this, how did you come to believe this? I'm not so much interested in what religion you associate yourself with. I am just really curious to know how people develop their ideas about a deity. If you don't believe in God, how did you come to this conclusion. A more natural question for me would be why does one believe in gods or goddesses. I thought that if I educated myself enough, I'd eventually "get it." I read the Bible cover to cover along with books by Strobel, Billy Graham, and others in an effort to make sense of it. Apologetics struck me as circular nonsense with goal of reassuring the believer by explaining away troubling questions. Likewise, I read excerpts of the Koran, Baghavad Gita, Vedas, and creation stories of numerous other cultures. Many of them share common themes. All this backfired and served only to cement my skepticism. Also, do you believe in an afterlife? No.I am convinced that we get only one chance to experience the mystery, awe, and beauty of this life. If you don't believe in an afterlife, what do you believe happens to us when we die? Do you believe that we have a soul or a spirit that someone survives? Do you believe in reincarnation? Do you believe that every part of us ceases to exist at death? Why do you believe this? We decompose. I doubt that a conscious exists separately from the body. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapax Legomena Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 If you don't believe in God, how did you come to this conclusion. I also studied the bible for many, many years, as well as researched other possibilities. I came to the conclusion that there is absolutely no evidence that supports God's existence. (Not here to pick a fight - just answering the question.) SheeryTx, Thanks for your clear and concise answers to the questions. You provide the reader with a nice summary of your position. I am going to respond to one of the answers you have made, but I am not doing so in order to pick a fight with you. I am doing so because there are many people who are also reading these comments, and I want them to be aware of an additional line of thinking pertaining to the Bible and evidence. Simon Greeleaf was born in 1753 in New England, studied law, became a lawyer and later taught law at Harvard. He wrote the The Laws of Evidence, the primary treatise on evidence used by lawyers, professors and law students for many years. Lawyers and judges of his day considered him the greatest evidentiary scholar in the United States. Greenfield studied the testimony of the gospel writers and wrote a book, The Testimony of the Evangelists: Examined by the Rules of Evidence Administered in the Courts of Justice. He considered such things as the writers’ honesty, their ability, their number and consistency of their testimony, the conformity of their testimony with experience and the coincidence of their testimony with collateral circumstances. Greenleaf’s examination led him to accept the testimony of the gospel writers: “Either the men of Galilee were men of superlative wisdom, and extensive knowledge and experience, and of deeper skill in the art of deception than any and all others, before or after them, or they have truly stated the astonishing things they saw and heard.” Former US Supreme Court Justice Fuller said: “The existing evidence of Christ’s resurrection is satisfactory to me. I have not examined it from the legal standpoint, but Greenleaf has done so, and he is the highest authority on evidence cited in the courts.” Several years ago John Warwick Montgomery, law professor, theologian and philosoher was on a college campus debating Thomas J.J. Altizer, the Emory professor who aquired fame in the 1960's when Time magazine featured him in a couple of articles in which he claimed that God was dead. During the debate Montgomery demonstrated that the historical accounts pertaining to Jesus are more trustworthy than many if not all of other historical records of the ancient world. He argued that if we are going to throw out the history pertaining to Jesus, we must reject the rest of ancient history as well. At that point, the head of the classics department frantically spoke from the audience. It's been awhile since I heard Montgomery discuss this incident, but the gist of the professor's comment was, "Good grief, Thomas; anything but that!" Note: In my earlier post I referred to A Lawyer Examines the Bible (published in 1943 and printed in paperback by Baker Books in 1977) and misspelled the author’s name. His full name is Irwin H. Linton. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragons in the flower bed Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 During the debate Montgomery demonstrated that the historical accounts pertaining to Jesus are more trustworthy than many if not all of other historical records of the ancient world. He argued that if we are going to throw out the history pertaining to Jesus, we must reject the rest of ancient history as well. At that point, the head of the classics department frantically spoke from the audience. It's been awhile since I heard Montgomery discuss this incident, but the gist of the professor's comment was, "Good grief, Thomas; anything but that!" Then why don't you believe that a literal Eris threw an actually golden apple at the feet of three goddesses on that fateful day? The evidence for the war is there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 Yes, in actuality, after doing the research it is found that the Bible is more verifiable than any other historical document. It also has less changes in the writings than any other document of antiquity. Homer's writings are not verifiable (as being his actual writings) at all, from what I remember, but no one is going around broadcasting that fact. And unlike the majority of historical documents, it is also very truthful. Many times the writers of the Bible books have admitted their failings and defeats, both personally and of the nation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 Then why don't you believe that a literal Eris threw an actually golden apple at the feet of three goddesses on that fateful day? The evidence for the war is there. I think that is possible. Do you? Has the history of this occurrence been written down by several men who claim it to be true, staking their life on the fact? Are these men found to be honest in all of their dealings? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapax Legomena Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 Then why don't you believe that a literal Eris threw an actually golden apple at the feet of three goddesses on that fateful day? The evidence for the war is there. Dragons in the flower bed, That is a very good question, and I am glad you asked it. We could accept the literal truth about Eris throwing a golden apple at the feet of the goddesses. However, to do so, we would have to reject the biblical account about Jesus, who he was and what he did. Jesus is a person who lived in history. Accounts of him are presented in the Bible, an historic document. That document tells us that Jesus treated the Scripture as literally true down to the tenses of verbs (am vs was) and the singular use of nouns (seed vs. seeds). He claimed it would be fulfilled to the to the smallest letter (the jot) and the smallest stroke of a letter (the tittle). He lived, died and rose again. The historic evidence is strong for that conclusion. The Apostle Paul tells us that when Jesus rose from the dead he appeared to Cephus, then to the twelve. After that he appeared to more than 500 hundred people “many of whom are alive today.” The implication is that if people didn’t believe Paul they should go ask the other witnesses who were still living at the time. When Luke wrote Luke-Acts he claimed to have gathered all of the information available about what was going on in that part of the ancient world so that he could present an account. His testimony is consistent with the writings done by other people at other times. There is strong reason to believe that what these people were saying is historic fact. There is nothing of this type of historical support for the mythological characters such as Eris. Further, if the gospel writers were telling the truth – and it is apparent that they were - we must conclude that Eris was not a goddess, that Peleus never married the sea-goddess Thetis, that there were no wedding guests, that Hera, Athena and Aphrodite were not goddesses, that they were never at the wedding and never knew anything about a golden apple with the inscription “To the Fairest.” The testimony of the gospel writers is trustworthy, and Jesus was telling the truth. Therefore, we can safely accept the message of the Bible and reject the account of the golden apple. On what basis do you reject the accounts of the gospel writers? What is it about the evidence that you cannot accept? Do you then also reject the entire evidentiary system of the western world? If so, on what basis? Thanks for taking time for posting concerning Eris and for helping to crystalize the issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 Then why don't you believe that a literal Eris threw an actually golden apple at the feet of three goddesses on that fateful day? The evidence for the war is there. Dragons in the flower bed, That is a very good question, and I am glad you asked it. We could accept the literal truth about Eris throwing a golden apple at the feet of the goddesses. However, to do so, we would have to reject the biblical account about Jesus, who he was and what he did. I don't necessarily believe that to be so... "We have a fight, not against blood and flesh, but against the governments, against the authorities, against the world-rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places."—Eph. 6:12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KidsHappen Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 A more natural question for me would be why does one believe in gods or goddesses. I thought that if I educated myself enough, I'd eventually "get it." I read the Bible cover to cover along with books by Strobel, Billy Graham, and others in an effort to make sense of it. Apologetics struck me as circular nonsense with goal of reassuring the believer by explaining away troubling questions. Likewise, I read excerpts of the Koran, Baghavad Gita, Vedas, and creation stories of numerous other cultures. Many of them share common themes. All this backfired and served only to cement my skepticism. BTDT. I can so relate. :) Also the part about not being able to make yourself believe something you did not really struck home with me and I believe I have said as much on this board before. It sounds like we have at least traveled some parts of the same path. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donna T. Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 I believe in the God of the Bible. I'm a fundamentalist. I believe the Bible is true, perfect in the original languages, and that the King James and New King James are the best translations of those documents that we have. I believe in God because the Bible makes absolute perfect sense to me. To me, it's as plain as the nose on my face. The story of God and His dealings with men, the fact that He has made a Way (His ONLY begotten Son - words ommited in the new translations), and the truth of the opportunity to spend Eternity with Him just seems very logical to me. Because of the Bible, life makes sense to me. Everything makes sense. The Bible explains everything. It explains our history, our needs, our wants, our perversions, our goodness, our futures. It is coherent. It satisfies. It answers all of my questions in a way that causes me to believe. Without it, I think I'd be so confused and lost, I wouldn't believe in anything at all. So, for me, it's about the Bible. I don't see the contradictions that some claim to see. I used to be in the modern versions. Even then, I believed, but they lack the clarity and authority of the KJV and NKJV. Alot of things didn't make sense to me when I was reading them. I believed but I had alot of questions. Actually, God literally called me out of the modern versions, and when I began to feed on the KJV, everything fell into place for me. All of my questions were answered and I just have no doubts at all. And, another thing, is that I've seen Lucifer. Face to face. So. He was everything that God warned me about! Let me tell you... he believes in the God of the Bible. I won't go into that further, but it's true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tibbyl Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 Donna, I am fascinated by your encounter with Lucifer. Is it something you would be comfortable sharing with us in more depth and detail? What events led up to the encounter? What was your state of mind at the time? Where did it take place? Did you actually see an apparition or was the presence something you sensed? If you saw Lucifer, what did he look like? Was the communication between the two of you telepathic or actual speaking? How did the encounter change you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumping In Puddles Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 I believe in God. I don't take the Bible literally and I am very socially liberal. I guess some would say that makes me a bad Christian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SherryTX Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 If you don't believe in God, how did you come to this conclusion. I also studied the bible for many, many years, as well as researched other possibilities. I came to the conclusion that there is absolutely no evidence that supports God's existence. (Not here to pick a fight - just answering the question.) SheeryTx, Thanks for your clear and concise answers to the questions. You provide the reader with a nice summary of your position. I am going to respond to one of the answers you have made, but I am not doing so in order to pick a fight with you. I am doing so because there are many people who are also reading these comments, and I want them to be aware of an additional line of thinking pertaining to the Bible and evidence. Simon Greeleaf was born in 1753 in New England, studied law, became a lawyer and later taught law at Harvard. He wrote the The Laws of Evidence, the primary treatise on evidence used by lawyers, professors and law students for many years. Lawyers and judges of his day considered him the greatest evidentiary scholar in the United States. Greenfield studied the testimony of the gospel writers and wrote a book, The Testimony of the Evangelists: Examined by the Rules of Evidence Administered in the Courts of Justice. He considered such things as the writers’ honesty, their ability, their number and consistency of their testimony, the conformity of their testimony with experience and the coincidence of their testimony with collateral circumstances. Greenleaf’s examination led him to accept the testimony of the gospel writers: “Either the men of Galilee were men of superlative wisdom, and extensive knowledge and experience, and of deeper skill in the art of deception than any and all others, before or after them, or they have truly stated the astonishing things they saw and heard.†Former US Supreme Court Justice Fuller said: “The existing evidence of Christ’s resurrection is satisfactory to me. I have not examined it from the legal standpoint, but Greenleaf has done so, and he is the highest authority on evidence cited in the courts.†Several years ago John Warwick Montgomery, law professor, theologian and philosoher was on a college campus debating Thomas J.J. Altizer, the Emory professor who aquired fame in the 1960's when Time magazine featured him in a couple of articles in which he claimed that God was dead. During the debate Montgomery demonstrated that the historical accounts pertaining to Jesus are more trustworthy than many if not all of other historical records of the ancient world. He argued that if we are going to throw out the history pertaining to Jesus, we must reject the rest of ancient history as well. At that point, the head of the classics department frantically spoke from the audience. It's been awhile since I heard Montgomery discuss this incident, but the gist of the professor's comment was, "Good grief, Thomas; anything but that!" Note: In my earlier post I referred to A Lawyer Examines the Bible (published in 1943 and printed in paperback by Baker Books in 1977) and misspelled the author’s name. His full name is Irwin H. Linton. Thanks for your reply. I have also read many articles in the past from scientists that put forth God's existence and what they thought was scientific evidence to this - however, I still didn't (and don't agree). I appreciate the further resources you provided. While I am not in the position at this time to look into them further, I will make an effort in the future. Again, my mind is made up, but I am interested in reading other views on this from time to time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SherryTX Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 An atheist's creed I believe in time, matter, and energy, which make up the whole of the world. I believe in reason, evidence and the human mind, the only tools we have; they are the product of natural forces in a majestic but impersonal universe, grander and richer than we can imagine, a source of endless opportunities for discovery. I believe in the power of doubt; I do not seek out reassurances, but embrace the question, and strive to challenge my own beliefs. I accept human mortality. We have but one life, brief and full of struggle, leavened with love and community, learning and exploration, beauty and the creation of new life, new art, and new ideas. I rejoice in this life that I have, and in the grandeur of a world that preceded me, and an earth that will abide without me. -- P. Z. Myers I haven't seen that before - thanks for posting it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SherryTX Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Where does it say that? really just curious - not snarky I promise. Well here is one example: Ecclesiastes 9:4-6 (New International Version) 4 Anyone who is among the living has hope [a] —even a live dog is better off than a dead lion! 5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun. I love Biblegateway.com - even though I am not a "believer" I do enjoy still reading the bible from time to time, and this website is really cool, because I only have 2 versions of the bible at my house right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 I love Biblegateway.com - even though I am not a "believer" I do enjoy still reading the bible from time to time, and this website is really cool, because I only have 2 versions of the bible at my house right now. Me too!! My parents and our congregation library have many, I have many publications that quote from different translations, but I haven't expanded my collection. Biblegateway.com is a great resource. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karen in CO Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 here is the short version of the journey that got me to atheist: I grew up in a very hellfire and brimstone Southern church. I moved into an evangelical church. I had a crises of confidence and left the church. I studied philosophy and world religions. I studied wicca and became a practicing witch. I had a crises of confidence and left the coven. I went churchless for years. I tried an array of churches. I studied the bible and various religions and religious, scientific and historical texts. I came to the realization that I am an atheist. I believe that right and wrong exists outside of the need for a deity. I can't believe in a god that is so small that he would care whether or not I believe in him. Whether or not there is an afterlife should not make any difference to how I live my life. I would like to think that I have a soul and that it will continue to exist after my body is dead. It is comforting for me to think that I will see my loved ones again. However, what I can do is to live my life and love my family and cherish what I have and try to make the world a better place. Good luck in your journey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mom31257 Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Yes, I do believe in God. I have had a relationship with Him as long as I can remember. I did accept Christ, asking him to be my Lord and Savior and forgive me of my sins, at the age of 7, but I had known him forever. I've always had an open line of communication with Him. There were some specific circumstances surrounding my birth that I believe made me realize at an early age how special I was to Him, as we all are. I had a vision of Heaven in the clouds when I was about 10. I know God gave me a glimpse of my future home. I love Him so much. He is everything to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddhabelly Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Nope, don't believe in God. Like the Dalai Lama, I believe in loving kindness. One of my teachers is Dr. Hiroshi Motoyama, who believes that until we have ONE religion, we will not be able to stop war or misunderstandings that lead to war. So in his books, he uses examples from all religions when he makes a point. (He actually does advocate praying, so I am not exactly the same kind of Buddhist that he is.) By practicing yoga and meditation for hours each day since he was very young, he has attained what I would call enlightenment. (He is a Shinto/Buddhist priest who heads a temple in Japan, but visits the U.S. from time to time.) Anyway, all of that introduction is to say that he can "see" all of your lives at once. He is very modest, and simply says that we will too if we practice seriously. I believe in reincarnation partly because I have such a strong connection to some people that seems to pre-date this life. Dr. Motoyama says that if one's relationship to one's spouse, or child, or father, is particulary strong or "unfinished," we will see them again. But your father from a previous life might be your female friend in this life. When my son was about 1-1/2, he turned to me and said, "A long time ago, I was your sister." I am not particularly close to my sister in this life, and so I don't feel like we are siblings for any particular reason. But I feel like my son "chose" to be born to me because of our past connection. I also wanted to say that Dr. Motoyama says that thousands of years ago, human lifetimes were farther apart. "Millions of years ago, a single person might be born only once in several thousand years. However, now some people are reincarnated almost immediately after death, and for most people the cycle between the other world and this one is about 200 years. Most of you have been born ten times in the last two thousand years, and 100 times in the last 20,000 years. That is a lot of rebirths! You have been a man in one life and a woman in another, very intelligent during one cycle, while in another lifetime you were not bright at all." I've always thought that was interesting. It is from his book "Awakening of the Chakras and Emancipation." His book "Karma and Reincarnation" and also "Theories of the Chakras" are more accessible than that one and should be read first. I mean, if you are interested in reading more.....:) Go Steelers! Just kidding. I will watch Bruce, though. Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
in Training in Texas Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 (edited) Yes, I believe in God. I also believe He would still be God even if I didn't believe in him. Nothing about life or this world made any sense to me until I saw the full picture of what the bible is telling us. Since then, its truth has been proven to me again and again in profound and personal ways. It is not so much that I've chosen to believe that - but that He's become so undeniable. As to your question about what God is like: well, we are created in his image, meaning at least that we are somewhat like him, and that he would not be foreign or "alien" to us: having intellect and reasoning, will and emotion. This is from Genesis but also from much of the bible that shows us how God relates to people. I think that one thing God gives us that is practically part of our DNA if you look throughout history, is that part of us that believes that there is something more than this life. If we die like the leaves on the trees, then why does life have so much meaning? Why do anything worth while? Why don't we all just kill each other? Well because that is not how we were created. That is not something we create in our children or in ourselves. We are born with it and nothing in "evolution" can create meaning out of matter. I think He loves us and wants us to know and understand him and what he wants for us because he knows what's best for us, and I think its ours for the asking and searching. Good question. Great discussion, but naturally answered mostly from our personal beliefs. I don't claim that my perspective is accurate, but one thing can be said: God either exists or doesn't exist and there is one truth, whether any of us know much about it. But its not a salad bar of ideas... both things cannot be true, and certainly all things cannot be true. I hope your searching leads you to grace peace and understanding; from what I have seen, that is what God wants for us. Phil 4:7 Edited February 2, 2009 by in Training in Texas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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