Am I taking away my kids' freedom to do business?

[RoughCollie]

DS3 received an iPod Touch for Christmas. DS2 has an iPod Classic, and now he wishes that he had asked for a Touch last year instead.

 

My rule has always been that no money deals can be made between the kids without my prior approval. In all these years, I have never approved of a monetary deal.

 

Now DS2 has offered to pay DS3 $5 to use his Touch for the next 2 hours. It is 1 a.m., and I said no because the boys are going to bed and I don't want DS2 to be up all night on the Touch -- we have wireless internet.

 

DS3 says that I have taken away the boys' freedom to do business. DS3 likes the idea of renting his possessions to his brothers because he can make money without working for it. (DS3 says he does work and it is called negotiation.) DS2 is a money burns a hole in his pocket type of guy. DS3 has never, ever, spent a dime of his money -- he is rich!

 

What do you think? Should I allow DS3 to rent his stuff to DS2, and butt out (not tonight, but in general)? Or should I continue to say no because the deals are a big waste of DS3's money? Or should I say yes because it really doesn't matter how DS3 spends his money, he will waste it no matter what he does?

 

Or what?

 

This is spending money, btw, not money that would be earmarked for charitable giving, or medium or long term savings. DS2 usually spends it on stuff like junk food. Or he forgets where he put it and can't spend it. Or he leaves it out and the dog eats it. Yes, next to pizza, our dog's favorite edible is cash.

 

Thanks,

RC

Edited January 3, 2009 by RoughCollie

[phathui5]

Since you're talking about teenagers and spending money, I would stay out of it.

[Jumping In Puddles]

I would tell them to go to bed now, you'll sleep on it and discuss it in the morning.

 

I would probably have a little talk alone with ds2 and give my opinion but leave it up to him. In the morning, though, I think it's too late for anything rational!

[RoughCollie]

Since you're talking about teenagers and spending money, I would stay out of it.

 

Tonight, the price was $5. A few days ago, DS3 negotiated a price of $11 for DS2 to be able to use the Touch while DS3 ate dinner. This deal, which was consummated without my knowledge (and against the rules), ended up with DS3 having to return the money to DS2 -- and DS3 took a loss because the dog ate one of the $5 bills that DS3 had left lying on my desk. We found one wet corner of the chewed up bill on the floor next to my desk.

 

Do I just allow DS3 to charge these high rates and hope DS2 eventually comes to his senses? What about when DS2 runs out of money and DS3 loans it to him at an exorbitant interest rate (50% or more per week)? I've stopped interest-bearing loan deals, too.

 

For the big picture, I'm thinking this is similar to banks lending people money (for mortgages and credit cards) who obviously cannot afford the loan payments. Where's the integrity in this? Plus, DS3's putative occupation is that of a loan shark with one customer -- except DS3 won't break DS2's legs if he doesn't get paid back on time.

 

RC

Edited January 3, 2009 by RoughCollie

[klmama]

Unless you are adamently opposed to letting them buy/rent things from each other, I think you could let them make the decision about how to spend their money in this case. While I would hope that the brother who had the nicer toy would be willing to let the others use it occasionally, just out of the goodness of his heart, it sounds like he was offered a sweet financial deal first and doesn't want to let the opportunity pass. That's understandable. Isn't the goal of giving them spending money so they can learn how to spend it? Making mistakes is how they learn. When buyer's remorse sets in, or the money is all gone, maybe your ds2 will learn a lesson. It sounds like it may take him more tries to learn it, but better to start doing so now, while he's living above your safety net, than later, when he isn't. Anyway, that's my $.02, for whatever it's worth.

 

Oops! I just read your other response. It sounds like your ds2 really does need a lot of guidance, and your ds3 needs to not take advantage of him. Is that your main concern here? Still, I do think he needs to learn the lesson, and if he doesn't learn it now, at home, he's going to learn it later, probably with much larger sums of money. I would definitely forbid interest-bearing loans.

Edited January 3, 2009 by klmama

[phathui5]

I'd stay out of it altogether. They're 14, right? They're both old enough to decide what they're going to do with their spending money without it being monitored. It sounds like you have one shrewd businessman there and one who's more spendy.

 

My rule has always been that no money deals can be made between the kids without my prior approval. In all these years, I have never approved of a monetary deal.

 

 

At their age, I'd probably drop the rule and let them know that they're mature enough to figure deals out on their own. And if your spendy one ends up broke for a while because he's spent it all on renting stuff from his brother, he'll figure out to save some money. Just don't bail him out.

 

My perspective on this is colored by having moved out when I was 15. So I wasn't far from their age when I was paying all of my own bills for real.

[Jumping In Puddles]

You know, the more I think about that, I think DS3 really needs to be encouraged to either share or not share - but don't charge. They are brothers, they can do each other favors without it coming down to money. If he wants to earn some money he should start a business but earning money from his brother for something he could be doing just to be kind isn't really right.

 

I would probably encourage my son to sell the iPod classic, and earn/save the money to make up the difference and buy a touch. He may even get a touch that is used for the same price as he earned for his classic. Help him list it on ebay.

 

Ultimately, I do think you should let them make the final decision but I would try to reason with each of them and guide them. If they choose to ignore you, then hopefully each one will learn a lesson. But I would hate for ds3 to think that it is ok to take advantage of family.

Edited January 3, 2009 by Jumping In Puddles

[RoughCollie]

They are brothers, they can do each other favors without it coming down to money.

 

I would probably encourage my son to sell the iPod classic, and earn/save the money to make up the difference and buy a touch.

 

That's a good point about sharing.

 

DS2 wants to get a job at McDonald's, and I said he can do that. I was surprised that 14 year olds can get a work permit, though. He can also sell his iPod on Craig's List, but not on eBay (I have PayPal issues).

[Tap]

A story

 

I used to loan my brother money all the time when I was 16-18 yo. He had a good job, but never knew the value of a dollar and was always content to rich for a week and poor for a month. He always came to me with a double your money type loan or something that was hugely in my favor. I made A LOT of money on him during those years, well over a $1,000 in interest payments! He always was the one to set the terms, and if I tried to talk him out of it he would beg me to loan it to him, insisting I was cheaper that his other options :confused:.

 

There was one thing he traded me in return that he will never know. I lost a lot of respect for him. He was so eager to trade his paycheck for some silly purchase or to spend the night in a bar, that even though I was just a teen, I saw how foolish he really was. He has always been this way and at 45yo lives in a small camp trailer. He has seasonal work that pays full year wages, but he spends it foolishly and never will have anything to show for it. I understand he lives simply, and that he leaves a 'small footprint' but he has no savings and if anything happened to his trailer, he would be destitute.

 

The reason I say this is that while I agree that you should let them work this out themselves, you need to look at the situation from adult eyes too. How does the lender view the lendee? How is their relationship otherwise? Is the lendee really learning a lesson from the situation, or is he just being used by big brother. What is he getting out of it? I think that while it is important to let natural consequences play out, I also think it is our job as parents to teach our children to not take advantage or other people and to help our kids to be aware of their own impulsiveness and guilibility. I would have long talks to both kids seperately to see how they both feel about each other in the situation, and how their role affects the other one.

 

If after the chat, you decide they are both very aware of thier roles then I would set a monetary gain limit on the transaction of $1 per hour and that the money and iPod must pass through your hands each time it is passed over, to reduce the chance that they will have private deal differrent than the mom deal.

 

I would also address the issue of if the ipod gets damaged, how it will be resolved. Both if the lendee obviously broke it (he dropped it) and if it just broke on its own volition. Dh and his brother have had a lifelong dispute about who broke a 4 wheeler. One feels very slighted by the other and one insists he did nothing that could have caused the damage.

[Pamela H in Texas]

I would stay out of it also. One thing my kids have always done though is to make a contract.

 

Okay, I went back and skimmed other answers so here are my thoughts:

 

1) They are teenagers. Don't micromanage.

2) They are teenagers. They are past the mommy making them share part (which I'm sure they do otherwise).

3) Perception of the lendee will not hinge solely on a few deals made when they are teenagers (though it could be the starting point).

4) I would get ds2 thinking. If I do X, I can have a Touch in Y time kind of thing. Have him come up with ways he could sell his Classic when ready, make money, etc.

 

ETA: A couple years ago, we borrowed something and it was junky, but better than nothing. It broke. Hubby tried to fix it then something else went wrong with it and hubby couldn't fix that. Neither issues was likely due to the regular use of the thing that we did. However, when I came to the board about it, the consensus was that we were responsible because it broke on our watch. That is the "rule" I'd use with my kids because though I don't totally agree, it does make a lot more sense than fighting about it for decades, ruining relationships with neighbors, or any such thing.

Edited January 3, 2009 by 2J5M9K

[KJB]

*own* ipod touch. Then, every time he thinks he wants to "rent" his brother's, he should put the rent money into an envelope in order to save for his own. I might even ask him leading questions like how much he'd be willing to pay every day to rent for a week or some such. Whatever number he comes up with would be what I'd insist he save.

 

And yes, I would get involved because there is a lesson to be learned here. It's almost always better to buy than rent and saving is necessary to be able to buy.

 

I might even offer to match what ds saves after a certain amount of time to encourage him. Say he saves for 3 three months, everything he's saved could be doubled (or whatever) by you if you can afford it. That way his goal might seem more realistic if his income is very small. Of course, if he has a steady in flow of cash, I'd let him save for it himself.

 

I know you said he already saves some money but I'm imagining this is for college or some grander goal. Learning to save your cash for fun for something you want takes even more discipline and is a valuable lesson, imo.

[Danestress]

I mean, if your home is going to become a place for people to earn a little cash, why not?

 

I guess I don't like the idea of one kid charging another for a chance to borrow something. I can see that sometimes it might make sense, and I am not sure I would want to control my sons that way (although, ironically, I have NO problem telling kids this age that lights were supposed to be out out 12:00). You could go either way, and I wouldn't have a problem with it, but on my gut level, I just don't like someone who lives off my (or DH's) income, earning and effort to charge another member of my family to use his "stuff."

[jamnkats]

I'd stay out of it altogether. They're 14, right? They're both old enough to decide what they're going to do with their spending money without it being monitored. It sounds like you have one shrewd businessman there and one who's more spendy.

 

 

 

At their age, I'd probably drop the rule and let them know that they're mature enough to figure deals out on their own. And if your spendy one ends up broke for a while because he's spent it all on renting stuff from his brother, he'll figure out to save some money. Just don't bail him out.

 

My perspective on this is colored by having moved out when I was 15. So I wasn't far from their age when I was paying all of my own bills for real.

 

I totally agree with this. I have intervened when the age spread was 7 years and the little one wanted to back out - we have an understanding that kids under 10 or so get to back out of deals - especially when made with a MUCH older sibling - but my kids have been making deals for many years. They all get something out of it and just because *I* don't agree with the price being paid doesn't mean that the buyer isn't getting value for their money. Whenever I've pointed it out I've been reassured that for *them* it is worth it. They're getting value that I can't see and they're also learning a lesson that sometimes *they* can't see. :)

 

This education has served my kids VERY well and they ALWAYS get better prices when we're negotiating at mercados and with abulantes.

[Plucky]

I agree with this. I don't let my kids charge when should be generous enough to share. If they are worried someone will break it then they wouldn't rent it either. Renting has never come up in my house, stinginess has.

[Tree House Academy]

My kids are younger, but my sons know that if it comes inside this house, it belongs to the family...not one or the other of them. My computer, for instance, is used by everyone at some time or another, and so on. I tell my older that, if he doesn't want to share his "stuff" then he needs to leave it with his dad. My little one is told the same...only he gives it to us and it is stored until older brother goes to see his dad. This way, there is no arguing and 99.9% of the time, the kids would rather bring their things home and share than have them stored/at dad's and see them only 3 times a year!

[Pink Fairy]

I mean, if your home is going to become a place for people to earn a little cash, why not?

 

I guess I don't like the idea of one kid charging another for a chance to borrow something. I can see that sometimes it might make sense, and I am not sure I would want to control my sons that way (although, ironically, I have NO problem telling kids this age that lights were supposed to be out out 12:00). You could go either way, and I wouldn't have a problem with it, but on my gut level, I just don't like someone who lives off my (or DH's) income, earning and effort to charge another member of my family to use his "stuff."

 

I've used this kind of "tit for tat" consequence, and it works beautifully.