Extremely Disorganized 8th Grader

[JazzyMom]

Have any of you been able to help an extremely disorganized child learn to be more organized? I would love some tips and advice.

My 8th grade ds (4th of 8 children) is extremely disorganized.  He is taking math, science, and writing at a co-op, as well as doing some subjects at home.

He does not have any trouble getting himself started on schoolwork, completing his schoolwork, staying focused, or managing his time.  He works well independently.  He does not have any trouble learning the material or taking tests.  His co-op grades are high A’s.

I have read a couple of books and have been working with him on a notebook system, as well as giving him a dedicated space to work, and a milk crate to hold his books and materials.  His co-op teachers give detailed checklists for homework and provide folders for kids to hand their materials in, etc.  I currently sit with him the night before co-op, making sure each item is in the right folder and everything gets in the backpack.

The issues are ds’ work space is always extremely messy, piled with papers, books, and non school related items.  When it is time to get his backpack ready for co-op, he might have Monday’s homework on the table, Tuesday’s is stuffed in his backpack, Wednesday’s is upstairs somewhere.  Sometimes, he can’t find a book.  Sometimes he has completely overlooked one portion of an assignment.  Or his writing assignment might still be on the computer, unnamed and difficult to find.  Several weeks he has gone to class without his ID badge even though we discussed how it should remain in his backpack.  We’ll later find it on the floor somewhere.  

He is genuinely trying and has expressed a desire to be better organized.

He did vision therapy for a processing disorder a couple of years ago, and made a lot of progress.  No attention issues, adhd, etc.  No need for further testing or accommodations that I can see.  He completes his work well and in a reasonable time frame.  Sometimes, he will do odd things like start his work on the back of a sheet of notebook paper.  Visually, I just don’t think he notices/remembers that the holes go on this side of the paper or this white margin should be at the top.  This typically only affects things like note taking.  Sometimes, he’ll put a folder in his backpack upside down.  These are the only lingering visual issues that I have noticed, other than spelling issues (which have improved great deal).  His handwriting is neat, and his writing skills are fine.  His teacher used a recent paper as an example for the class.

Any tips for helping him organize himself? My oldest child was also disorganized, and I believe I helped him for too long.  It made college very difficult for him.  My other kids don’t seem to have this issue.

Edited November 6, 2023 by JazzyMom

[HomeAgain]

Routine is our best friend here.  Youngest ds now has a chore list that requires him to tidy his spaces every day, but also each day he has a focus area rotation.  For his desk, it's a weekly chance to really examine what he still needs, what he doesn't, and what is in his drawers.  If something isn't there, it gives him a chance to put it there.

Our other development this year was color coding his supplies. Math, for example, has a green folder, green book, and green tab in his files on his binder.  It helps him maintain his rotating class schedule if he goes through the rainbow.

But I firmly believe my job is to continue to reinforce the habits I want my kid to develop.  In the teen years, those habits are taking a few minutes each day to organize a work space, put materials where they belong, and check calendars for due dates.  I can keep a kid doing that long enough so that they can continue the habit themselves (and feel its absence when they don't).

[JazzyMom]

@HomeAgain How old is he? Is he extremely disorganized or just a normal kid?

Ds’ organizational issues seem extreme compared to my other kids.  For instance, if I say go put this book away, the book will end up in some random place.  I have to look at him very directly, and say very specifically, “Go put this book in the gray milk crate upstairs.” Then I’ll say where are you supposed to put this? The gray milk crate.  He goes off to put the book away, and there is a 50/50 chance it will make it, lol.  If I later go check the milk crate (which has been set aside as a place to hold school books), I might also find a sock in there, a basketball medal, etc.

With my other kids, if I say go put this away, it goes directly into the designated place where they put their things every day.  Not so with my 13 yo.  I don’t know what system my 16 yo uses.  He is not exactly organized, but has no issue keeping up with his work, turning it in, etc., so I don’t worry about it.

I guess I am just wondering a few years of intense habit building is going to make a difference, or if there’s some way I should approach this differently.

Edited November 6, 2023 by JazzyMom

[HomeAgain]

2 minutes ago, JazzyMom said:

@HomeAgain How old is he? Is he extremely disorganized or just a normal kid?

Ds’ organizational issues seem extreme compared to my other kids.  For instance, if I say go put this book away, the book will end up in some random place.  I have to look at him very directly, and say very specifically, “Go put this book in the gray milk crate upstairs.” Then I’ll say where are you supposed to put this? The gray milk crate.  He goes off to put the book away, and there is a 50/50 chance it will make it, lol.  If I later go check the milk crate (which has been set aside as a place to hold school books), I might also find a sock in there, a basketball medal, etc.

He's 13.  We all struggle with the same issues.  Like, I cannot go into a room and just start putting things away.  I know it's messy, but my brain doesn't automatically register what belongs and what doesn't. I have to pick up each item, determine where it belongs mentally, and then put it there.  Because of this we are very deliberate in what we say, how we put things away, and how we organize ourselves.  In your example, I would specifically ask "where does this book belong?"  Once that's determined, I can tell the child to put it there.  If it doesn't make it there, that's another opportunity to do it again.  But there has to be that slight bit of accountability, first for actively thinking on their own, and then for executing.  Two skills, two things to teach.

This kid is my youngest.  My oldest also struggled and we did everything from Flylady Kids to just keeping plugging along with really firm routines.  He has his own way of organizing and doing things that he has developed over the years.  11-15 were the worst years of this kid's life, trying to juggle everything and puberty.  But we had some really great teachers for EF skills that helped out, and it just came down to the same things: routines, engage, develop your own shortcuts.

[JazzyMom]

Okay, thanks this is helpful!  We will keep plugging away.

I have been missing that step of letting him think for himself about where to put things, so I will start doing that.  This includes organizing his homework and backpack for class.  Right now, I am just telling him do this, do that.  But I am missing that step of giving him time to think about what he needs to do.  

[Quarter Note]

4 hours ago, JazzyMom said:

He does not have any trouble getting himself started on schoolwork, completing his schoolwork, staying focused, or managing his time.  He works well independently.  He does not have any trouble learning the material or taking tests.  His co-op grades are high A’s.

You can take another approach:  As long as it's only his workspace and not a public area, then you don't sweat the small stuff.  He sounds like a great kid!  

Many years ago, I heard an educational consultant (on a talk that I listened to on a cassette tape, it was that long ago!) talk about this very issue.  The grown-ups were very upset about the kids' educational messiness.  But the kids were doing the work, learning the stuff...  The educational consultant kept asking, "What's the point?" - meaning, if the kids were already doing well, then "organizing" wasn't going to help them do better.  It was just a check mark for the parent.

I highly recommend you give that 8th grade boy, with all his adolescent brain hormone stuff going on, a big hug, tell him how proud you are of him for his self-motivation in academics, let him know that if his messiness ever starts to bother him you have some ideas, and then just let your good son grow up and mature on his own timetable.

Good luck!

Edited November 6, 2023 by Quarter Note
grammar

[JazzyMom]

@Quarter Note

Thanks for the encouragement!  He is a great kid and doing a lot of things well.

Mainly, I am concerned because my oldest child was similar, except that in addition to being disorganized, he needed some help with time management. I thought he just needed time to mature, so I filled that role for him - creating schedules/checklists for him and keeping him organized. Everything was fine until senior year, when I realized he needed to transition to organizing himself.  Unfortunately, he was at an age where he was not interested in learning this from me, and he had a more difficult course load.  It all made for a very difficult transition to college.

So I would really like to help my current 13 yo while he is expressing a need for help and open to receiving it.  If I wasn’t helping him stay organized, he would really struggle with the ability to locate items and get them turned in.

 

[PeterPan]

On 11/6/2023 at 2:06 PM, JazzyMom said:

Okay, thanks this is helpful!  We will keep plugging away.

I have been missing that step of letting him think for himself about where to put things, so I will start doing that.  This includes organizing his homework and backpack for class.  Right now, I am just telling him do this, do that.  But I am missing that step of giving him time to think about what he needs to do.  

It’s interesting that you’re saying no ADHD even though you’re describing severe executive function issues that would get him diagnosed. I don’t know him but the most severe EF issues are usually going to drift into ASD territory. So at the very least rad about EF more because that’s the issue. Look at basics like metronome work to stimulate the EF portion of the brain and work in sequencing and chunking. It also sounds like his working memory is poor. Usually VT includes some EF work but your ds needs MORE and more direct.

Have you had him checked for retained reflexes? Those would create odd glitches. If you can find an OT to do the reflex work and metronome work you may see some functional improvement. You can also do the metronome work yourself for free. Heathermomster posted instructions in the past so search for her posts. You can bring working memory work into that which will help with the walks in and doesn’t remember why he’s there thing. Games, digit spans, physical work for working memory, etc. 
 

And yes, as you say, because this is a disability for him you need to stop giving him the answers and help him work through them. Very gifted kids have strengths that mask surprising pockets of weakness. My ds at 10-12 struggled with the steps to wipe up a spill. Some kids need the steps to brush their teeth. If you get some clinical level books on EF you can understand more what you’re looking at to see what needs to happen. FLIPP the Switch is a powerful one. ProEdInc will have books. Ironically it’s SLPs doing detailed EF testing/intervention, not the psychs. 
 

Fwiw if his solution is not his own it’s not likely to stick. Hand him more tech and ask how he could use it to make this go better. These people often need to LIVE by their tech, external brains. 

Edited November 10, 2023 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

On 11/6/2023 at 5:05 PM, Quarter Note said:

You can take another approach:  As long as it's only his workspace and not a public area, then you don't sweat the small stuff.  He sounds like a great kid!  

Many years ago, I heard an educational consultant (on a talk that I listened to on a cassette tape, it was that long ago!) talk about this very issue.  The grown-ups were very upset about the kids' educational messiness.  But the kids were doing the work, learning the stuff...  The educational consultant kept asking, "What's the point?" - meaning, if the kids were already doing well, then "organizing" wasn't going to help them do better.  It was just a check mark for the parent.

I highly recommend you give that 8th grade boy, with all his adolescent brain hormone stuff going on, a big hug, tell him how proud you are of him for his self-motivation in academics, let him know that if his messiness ever starts to bother him you have some ideas, and then just let your good son grow up and mature on his own timetable.

Good luck!

Yes and double yes. He may also not have grown enough yet to understand what will work for him. He may need multiple desks or a smaller desk. He may prefer to SEE everything because it disappears from his world when he doesn’t. He’ll grow into this as you collaborate and ask him what is working and what isn’t. Ask him if there’s anything that bugs him and what he might be able to do to help it go better. What bugs him might be different from what bugs you. 
 

Learning to problem solve is more important than which or how many he solves. 

[prairiewindmomma]

On 11/6/2023 at 4:46 AM, JazzyMom said:

@HomeAgain How old is he? Is he extremely disorganized or just a normal kid?

Ds’ organizational issues seem extreme compared to my other kids.  For instance, if I say go put this book away, the book will end up in some random place.  I have to look at him very directly, and say very specifically, “Go put this book in the gray milk crate upstairs.” Then I’ll say where are you supposed to put this? The gray milk crate.  He goes off to put the book away, and there is a 50/50 chance it will make it, lol.  If I later go check the milk crate (which has been set aside as a place to hold school books), I might also find a sock in there, a basketball medal, etc.

With my other kids, if I say go put this away, it goes directly into the designated place where they put their things every day.  Not so with my 13 yo.  I don’t know what system my 16 yo uses.  He is not exactly organized, but has no issue keeping up with his work, turning it in, etc., so I don’t worry about it.

I guess I am just wondering a few years of intense habit building is going to make a difference, or if there’s some way I should approach this differently.

This is not normal 8th grade behavior. Neurotypical 8th graders should not need to be directed like this. My kid with visual processing issues did not need this level of support. I dont think this is the issue. These are executive functioning issues, and your post really screams inattentive adhd. Did he have a specific, recent eval for inattentive adhd? 
 

ETA: I would also .02 that this kid is bright and that the academic ease of his studies is helping maintain good grades despite struggling with EF. 

Edited November 10, 2023 by prairiewindmomma

[prairiewindmomma]

Fwiw, my neurotypical kids could manage their stuff by about 3rd grade. My current fifth grader sometimes forgets to start her swim stuff in the washer when we get home (gets distracted in the doorway and loses her routine), and I will give a reminder for that, but she does her schoolwork with a planner, writes herself postit notes, manages her swim bag, and deals with stuff. My milder inattentive adhd kid sometimes needs a reminder to take care of stuff (do you have homework tonight? Have you taken your meds?) my severe adhd kid struggles like yours.

I mention this because adhd tends to be genetic and the perception of normal can be off if siblings or parent has this level of struggle as their norm.

[KSera]

17 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

These are executive functioning issues, and your post really screams inattentive adhd. Did he have a specific, recent eval for inattentive adhd? 
 

ETA: I would also .02 that this kid is bright and that the academic ease of his studies is helping maintain good grades despite struggling with EF. 

This is what it sounds like to me as well. Your description sounds very much like my kids with adhd. They’re all bright and didn’t flag that way until they were much older.  I’d be inclined to have him evaluated again if it wasn’t very recent. 

[PeterPan]

Just now, KSera said:

This is what it sounds like to me as well. Your description sounds very much like my kids with adhd. They’re all bright and didn’t flag that way until they were much older.  I’d be inclined to have him evaluated again if it wasn’t very recent. 

The question is who told her it’s not adhd. A psych or even SLP or ped would have handed her an EF survey which would have caught this stuff. Now my ds on the adhd question will get different answers from every psych. The line is fuzzy between seems to have attention and perseveration. 
 

It’s not generally helpful to assume complete accuracy in psych evals. No money back guarantees and sometimes wildly off. 

[JazzyMom]

I recognize it isn’t normal.  Not a family trait as neither dh nor I struggle with organization.  Only 2 of my 8 kids seem to struggle (one of those is now an adult).

The only eval ds has had is with the developmental optometrist.  During vision therapy, they did work on retained reflexes.

When I said he didn’t have adhd, etc., I meant that he hadn’t been diagnosed with anything and didn’t seem to need any accommodations in class, such as extra time on tests, etc.  His homework, tests, and classroom performance are above average.  He gets up in the morning, does his work in a reasonable time frame, and doesn’t seem to have trouble staying focused. That’s why I said no need for testing.

I did think it was an EF issue, but didn’t realize that was a diagnosable disorder.

I have read That Crumpled Paper Was Due Last Week and Smart But Scattered.  Would welcome any suggestions for other resources that might help.

 

Edited November 11, 2023 by JazzyMom

[prairiewindmomma]

For my kids with adhd, meds have been the most helpful.  It's like a hearing aid for the hard of hearing. You're just not at a level playing field if the brain isn't firing well.  My kids describe it as going from hearing multiple streams of conversation at once and trying to pick out one of them while watching a circus and a NASCAR race at the same time to sitting in a quiet room with one voice going. 

[PeterPan]

On 11/10/2023 at 8:42 PM, JazzyMom said:

I recognize it isn’t normal.  Not a family trait as neither dh nor I struggle with organization.  Only 2 of my 8 kids seem to struggle (one of those is now an adult).

The only eval ds has had is with the developmental optometrist.  During vision therapy, they did work on retained reflexes.

When I said he didn’t have adhd, etc., I meant that he hadn’t been diagnosed with anything and didn’t seem to need any accommodations in class, such as extra time on tests, etc.  His homework, tests, and classroom performance are above average.  He gets up in the morning, does his work in a reasonable time frame, and doesn’t seem to have trouble staying focused. That’s why I said no need for testing.

I did think it was an EF issue, but didn’t realize that was a diagnosable disorder.

I have read That Crumpled Paper Was Due Last Week and Smart But Scattered.  Would welcome any suggestions for other resources that might help.

 

If you think it's due to vision, I'd check back in with your dev. optometrist. If you think it's EF, I'd talk with a psych.