Can you tell me about DYS?

[Drama Llama]

I have heard that Davidson Young Scholars is a great program.  But other than summer programs, what does it include?  The website is really vague.  

[Dmmetler]

Not as much as it used to-it used to be that you got assigned a family support advisor when you were accepted, who could do things like write letters on your child's behalf for schools, provide suggestions, and generally provide support. Now they've gone to doing focus group sessions, which lets them handle more people, but is also less personal. It's also become harder to connect and network with other families because you can no longer search based on location. 

 

There are good one-shot webinars for kids and parents that are free of charge. 

 

There are online forums, and there are multiple private FB groups that are just DYS parents and alumni which are wonderful-not through DYS, but which use DYS as their filtering mechanism. 

 

The big events and camps are wonderful. We never did the online classes due to timing,but we planned our summer around the camps for years because it was so valuable to L-and the Summit was essentially my professional conference as a parent of a PG kid. The ability to just relax and be with people who ALL "got it" ane to be unguarded was amazing, and the fact that we're no longer eligible is making this summer kind of sad. Having said that, most of ours were before COVID, when a lot more people went and a lot more vendors were there from the various GT programs, and last summer was a lot sparser. I don't know if it will pick back up or not. (It also might be the fact that L was in college, so I wasn't looking for classes or books). 

 

Where you live, there may well be informal gatherings and local groups. We could literally have done a gathering for every family within a 2 hour radius in my living room and had space leftover,so that was was less helpful for us. 

 

The DYS service and project based programs are awesome for the right kid. 

 

If you already have the scores, O think it's worth it. I also think doing the upcoming SAT test date NuMATS/DYS is probably worth it, just because it's a low stakes way of trying out the test. 

[Drama Llama]

We seem to have the scores.  
 

When you say webinars, webinars about what?  Or what kind of suggestions.  I am still am not sure I understand the “support” piece.  
 

 

[Drama Llama]

@Dmmetler

 

I meant to quote you above so you'd see my reply.

[Dmmetler]

Webinars on special topics, similar to an Athena's or G3 class, but either a one shot or sometimes a few short sessions. 

 

Support as in someone to bounce ideas off of, referrals to other programs, documentation and support, and stuff like that. They supposedly sometimes provide financial support as well, but we never applied. 

[Drama Llama]

9 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

Webinars on special topics, similar to an Athena's or G3 class, but either a one shot or sometimes a few short sessions. 

 

Support as in someone to bounce ideas off of, referrals to other programs, documentation and support, and stuff like that. They supposedly sometimes provide financial support as well, but we never applied. 

Thank you!

 

[Drama Llama]

15 hours ago, Dmmetler said:

The DYS service and project based programs are awesome for the right kid. 

What are these?

[Dmmetler]

7 minutes ago, BandH said:

What are these?

MaPD, which recognizes  kids who create local programs, Ambassadors (for older kids), which selects a few of these and provides mentoring and funding support to turn the project into a sustainable non-profit, and Davidson Scholars, which recognizes high level projects in a variety of areas (but not live animal projects) and provides pretty significant funding.  But the last two are pretty competitive. 

[Drama Llama]

Has L done any of those?  
 

 

[Dmmetler]

On 6/17/2023 at 8:38 AM, BandH said:

Has L done any of those?  
 

 

L did MAPD for many years, but chose not to pursue ambassadors vs working with existing non-profits. Scholars had project limits that excluded L's strongest interests at the time (anything with animals bigger than about a fruit fly has a lot of extra rules or is banned entirely) so it made more sense to stick with the programs and orgs that specifically focused on organismal bio.

[Drama Llama]

2 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

L did MAPD for many years, but chose not to pursue ambassadors vs working with existing non-profits. Scholars had project limits that excluded L's strongest interests at the time (anything with animals bigger than about a fruit fly has a lot of extra rules or is banned entirely) so it made more sense to stick with the programs and orgs that specifically focused on organismal bio.

What does “doing MaPD” entail?  

[Dmmetler]

9 minutes ago, BandH said:

What does “doing MaPD” entail?  

Creating and writing up what community service project you're working with, and sharing it with other kids who are also doing the same thing in discussion sessions, and an extra adult or two to bounce ideas off of.  The kids also have a social event at Summit so they get to see the others face to face. Ambassadors have a set program with steps and essentially a regular class for 2 years (with the same sort of social stuff) and is a lot more structured. 

 

"I want to run a science club for kids in my backyard, and we'll help with field research and do community outreach events locally, and raise funds for an existing non-profit (which was L's MaPD project for several years)" vs "I'm going to create a 504c3 that provides materials for kids science clubs in urban after school programs to use". For the most part, they seem to appeal to different kids, too. 

 

 

 

 

[Cake and Pi]

Totally worth it to apply since you have the scores. The DYS program has been great for networking and finding folks on a similar wavelength, both for parents and for kids in our family. It's so much easier to relax and be ourselves around other DYS families. It doesn't feel like we need to hide who we are or what we spend our time doing, you know?

The secret Facebook groups by themselves make the effort involved in applying worth it, in my opinion. It's fantastic having a hive mind of other parents who actually get it, who have actually experienced it, that you can ask questions of. For example, when my then-6yo wanted to take AoPS Online classes, I was able to ask and then read experiences from several other families who had already had 6-7yo kids take AoPS Online classes. I don't know where else I could have asked and gotten that kind of actually helpful response. In fact, anywhere else and I'd probably have gotten no help at all, just a bunch of "Wow, that's amazing! Is he, like, a genius?" and "You should just let him be a kid 😠 -- stop pushing him!" and "You need to make him go back and focus on foundational stuff because kids who do algebra super early don't really understand what they're doing and will eventually fail because of it."

Kids being DYS also streamlines applying for certain other Davidson Institute programs, such as Davidson Explore online classes.

We enjoy Summit. Haven't tried other summer programs yet.

I got a lot out of our Family Consultant before they were replaced with focus groups. I'm sad the FCs are gone. Haven't tried the focus groups yet, but I suppose they could accomplish roughly the same thing.

[Drama Llama]

20 hours ago, Cake and Pi said:

Totally worth it to apply since you have the scores. The DYS program has been great for networking and finding folks on a similar wavelength, both for parents and for kids in our family. It's so much easier to relax and be ourselves around other DYS families. It doesn't feel like we need to hide who we are or what we spend our time doing, you know?

The secret Facebook groups by themselves make the effort involved in applying worth it, in my opinion. It's fantastic having a hive mind of other parents who actually get it, who have actually experienced it, that you can ask questions of. For example, when my then-6yo wanted to take AoPS Online classes, I was able to ask and then read experiences from several other families who had already had 6-7yo kids take AoPS Online classes. I don't know where else I could have asked and gotten that kind of actually helpful response. In fact, anywhere else and I'd probably have gotten no help at all, just a bunch of "Wow, that's amazing! Is he, like, a genius?" and "You should just let him be a kid 😠 -- stop pushing him!" and "You need to make him go back and focus on foundational stuff because kids who do algebra super early don't really understand what they're doing and will eventually fail because of it."

Kids being DYS also streamlines applying for certain other Davidson Institute programs, such as Davidson Explore online classes.

We enjoy Summit. Haven't tried other summer programs yet.

I got a lot out of our Family Consultant before they were replaced with focus groups. I'm sad the FCs are gone. Haven't tried the focus groups yet, but I suppose they could accomplish roughly the same thing.

Thanks!

He doesn't seem like he's as much of an outlier as some people's kids, so I'm not sure I need that kind of support.  He used to have a brother who was much more of an outlier, maybe that skewed my perception.  

[Cake and Pi]

On 6/26/2023 at 4:37 PM, BandH said:

He doesn't seem like he's as much of an outlier as some people's kids, so I'm not sure I need that kind of support.  

Eh, some PG kids just blend in better and/or have extra Es so that they don't appear so in-your-face PG. Two of my DYS tested with the exact same GAI, but one is radically accelerated while the other is pretty close to age-expectations. His teachers in 2nd grade public school didn't think he was gifted at all and refused to nominate him for the gifted program when I requested it. That's how not-an-outlier he comes off as. Still, I've found a lot of support for parenting and homeschooling him in the DYS community. There's a surprising number of 2e, underperforming, and happy-to-do-whatever-age-peers-are-doing DYS kids, and it's nice to have folks to commiserate and troubleshoot with. And just like with the more out-there kids, you get actually helpful, supportive suggestions and stories when you ask instead of "he's already working at/above grade level--what is there to be worried about?"

[KSera]

On 6/26/2023 at 4:37 PM, BandH said:

He doesn't seem like he's as much of an outlier as some people's kids, so I'm not sure I need that kind of support.  He used to have a brother who was much more of an outlier, maybe that skewed my perception.  

 

1 hour ago, Cake and Pi said:

Eh, some PG kids just blend in better and/or have extra Es so that they don't appear so in-your-face PG. Two of my DYS tested with the exact same GAI, but one is radically accelerated while the other is pretty close to age-expectations. His teachers in 2nd grade public school didn't think he was gifted at all and refused to nominate him for the gifted program when I requested it. That's how not-an-outlier he comes off as. Still, I've found a lot of support for parenting and homeschooling him in the DYS community. There's a surprising number of 2e, underperforming, and happy-to-do-whatever-age-peers-are-doing DYS kids, and it's nice to have folks to commiserate and troubleshoot with. And just like with the more out-there kids, you get actually helpful, supportive suggestions and stories when you ask instead of "he's already working at/above grade level--what is there to be worried about?"

Fwiw, I had one like this who had the scores but had other Es as well and wasn’t as accelerated as other PG kids. I went back and forth on DYS and asked questions like yours on forums and never ended up doing it. In hindsight I wish we had. Maybe it would have made a positive difference for us. 

[kbutton]

10 hours ago, Cake and Pi said:

Eh, some PG kids just blend in better and/or have extra Es so that they don't appear so in-your-face PG. Two of my DYS tested with the exact same GAI, but one is radically accelerated while the other is pretty close to age-expectations. His teachers in 2nd grade public school didn't think he was gifted at all and refused to nominate him for the gifted program when I requested it. That's how not-an-outlier he comes off as. Still, I've found a lot of support for parenting and homeschooling him in the DYS community. There's a surprising number of 2e, underperforming, and happy-to-do-whatever-age-peers-are-doing DYS kids, and it's nice to have folks to commiserate and troubleshoot with. And just like with the more out-there kids, you get actually helpful, supportive suggestions and stories when you ask instead of "he's already working at/above grade level--what is there to be worried about?"

I wish I would've known that for my older son. He had the scores on the WISC, but the application questions seemed designed to exclude kids with the bolded profile, TBH. My son looked PG if the gifted enrichment activity was hands-on, and people were confused when I would mention that he wasn't radically accelerated, etc. 

My younger son doesn't have the scores for DYS, but he is perceived (now) as being gifted and directed toward more resources (he does score well into the gifted range, just not DYS gifted). He's 2e but has a completely different profile. Unlike my other son, when he was little, he was not seen as smart in gifted settings (auditory processing issues are a #####), but he enjoyed them, and he did very well if the environment was calm and organized (but not if the kids were allowed to be pushy or if it was loud). He struggles far less with academics than my PG older son, and he will be taking DE in the fall at his small school (he went to school for the first time this year). I suspect he'd actually like and benefit from something like DYS if he qualified, assuming he had the energy to take on an outside project (3 rare health conditions mean chronic fatigue is a real problem).

8 hours ago, KSera said:

Fwiw, I had one like this who had the scores but had other Es as well and wasn’t as accelerated as other PG kids. I went back and forth on DYS and asked questions like yours on forums and never ended up doing it. In hindsight I wish we had. Maybe it would have made a positive difference for us. 

I never got good information about whether my son would fit at all, and that both saddened me and made me conclude that it wasn't worth applying. I am glad the OP is getting more information than I did!

 

@BandH, we did have a local gifted organization that was (still is) active and supportive, and you might look into what is available to you locally while you are looking into DYS--if you have local resources, people are probably doing both, and both options would presumably connect you to people you can talk to.

Our local program was a little drive for us, but it was affordable, and the classes offered covered the entire spectrum of gifted interests--everything from sit still and learn hard stuff to very playful and creative with lots in between (including a hands-on engineering class). As students aged, they transitioned to being able to volunteer there, though by then, we stopped because we were just busier, and my kids had taken what they wanted to take (my younger one was pickier about his classes, and my older son had taken anything that was a reasonably good fit). They offered talks to parents about gifted education, navigating acceleration/DE in school, tackling issues typical of gifted kids, camp resources, etc. 

All that to say that my PG 2e kid is going into the trades, lol! He might be headed for college-level work still pertaining to the trades, but we'll see. He was never radically accelerated, but he might've been if we'd been able to figure out some of his language issue much earlier--it's hard to say, plus he's  a very hands-on person. 

Good luck!

[Drama Llama]

1 hour ago, kbutton said:

I wish I would've known that for my older son. He had the scores on the WISC, but the application questions seemed designed to exclude kids with the bolded profile, TBH. My son looked PG if the gifted enrichment activity was hands-on, and people were confused when I would mention that he wasn't radically accelerated, etc. 

I'm not sure if he's PG.  I see different cut offs in different places, but he's above the DYS cut off.  Hoagies seems to consider his WISC FSIQ score "PG", but other places don't.  

He has DYS qualifying scores a few different places: standardized tests at school, a school admissions test, and a recent WISC.  I thought that was enough.  I haven't looked at the application, other than to see what tests are required.  I thought it was kind of automatic. 

1 hour ago, kbutton said:

My younger son doesn't have the scores for DYS, but he is perceived (now) as being gifted and directed toward more resources (he does score well into the gifted range, just not DYS gifted). He's 2e but has a completely different profile. Unlike my other son, when he was little, he was not seen as smart in gifted settings (auditory processing issues are a #####), but he enjoyed them, and he did very well if the environment was calm and organized (but not if the kids were allowed to be pushy or if it was loud). He struggles far less with academics than my PG older son, and he will be taking DE in the fall at his small school (he went to school for the first time this year). I suspect he'd actually like and benefit from something like DYS if he qualified, assuming he had the energy to take on an outside project (3 rare health conditions mean chronic fatigue is a real problem).

I never got good information about whether my son would fit at all, and that both saddened me and made me conclude that it wasn't worth applying. I am glad the OP is getting more information than I did!

 

@BandH, we did have a local gifted organization that was (still is) active and supportive, and you might look into what is available to you locally while you are looking into DYS--if you have local resources, people are probably doing both, and both options would presumably connect you to people you can talk to.

Our local program was a little drive for us, but it was affordable, and the classes offered covered the entire spectrum of gifted interests--everything from sit still and learn hard stuff to very playful and creative with lots in between (including a hands-on engineering class). As students aged, they transitioned to being able to volunteer there, though by then, we stopped because we were just busier, and my kids had taken what they wanted to take (my younger one was pickier about his classes, and my older son had taken anything that was a reasonably good fit). They offered talks to parents about gifted education, navigating acceleration/DE in school, tackling issues typical of gifted kids, camp resources, etc. 

All that to say that my PG 2e kid is going into the trades, lol! He might be headed for college-level work still pertaining to the trades, but we'll see. He was never radically accelerated, but he might've been if we'd been able to figure out some of his language issue much earlier--it's hard to say, plus he's  a very hands-on person. 

Good luck!

I think my kid would love and do well in a construction trade.  He talks about doing civil engineering, which has a lot of overlap.  

 

[kbutton]

1 minute ago, BandH said:

I'm not sure if he's PG.  I see different cut offs in different places, but he's above the DYS cut off.  Hoagies seems to consider his WISC FSIQ score "PG", but other places don't.  

He has DYS qualifying scores a few different places: standardized tests at school, a school admissions test, and a recent WISC.  I thought that was enough.  I haven't looked at the application, other than to see what tests are required.  I thought it was kind of automatic. 

I think that DYS qualifying scores are usually considered PG informally.

There is an application last I knew, and the questions just seemed like they are geared at people not like us, lol! I felt like I was expected to have certain answers. I would just look at the application and see what you think. This is by no means to talk you out of it--as someone else said, they had good support for their gifted but not accelerated, 2e kids. If I had known that, I might've sucked it up and applied regardless of my perception of the application. People who do lots of applications and questionnaires might not think anything of the questions--some people are born to know how to answer things even when they don't feel like a fit. I am not one of them. 

If it costs you little to nothing, I would apply in your shoes.

6 minutes ago, BandH said:

I think my kid would love and do well in a construction trade.  He talks about doing civil engineering, which has a lot of overlap.  

That's cool! We need gifted people in all kinds of fields.

[SeaConquest]

18 hours ago, Cake and Pi said:

Eh, some PG kids just blend in better and/or have extra Es so that they don't appear so in-your-face PG. Two of my DYS tested with the exact same GAI, but one is radically accelerated while the other is pretty close to age-expectations. His teachers in 2nd grade public school didn't think he was gifted at all and refused to nominate him for the gifted program when I requested it. That's how not-an-outlier he comes off as. Still, I've found a lot of support for parenting and homeschooling him in the DYS community. There's a surprising number of 2e, underperforming, and happy-to-do-whatever-age-peers-are-doing DYS kids, and it's nice to have folks to commiserate and troubleshoot with. And just like with the more out-there kids, you get actually helpful, supportive suggestions and stories when you ask instead of "he's already working at/above grade level--what is there to be worried about?"

So much this! I was fortunate to meet @Jackie and her 2e DYS through this board. They both helped me to better understand the Es I was seeing in my oldest. After my DS1 started taking meds for one of the Es, he qualified for DYS, which introduced me to more of the many flavors of PG kids. Some get PhDs before they can vote, but many do not, for a variety of reasons. Echoing others, I've also found the DYS FB groups to be most helpful because you really find a tribe of parents who just get what it's like to parent these kids. It is very freeing to not have to explain, excuse, or justify. It's a great community of genenrally kind and helpful folks.

Having said that, my son did not have the greatest experience in the Davidson Explore class he took in 5th grade. I was not aware of the course's executive functioning demands or the poor experience that many 2e kids have had in the Explore courses. In hindsight, despite the bad experience, I am glad that he took the class because it was the first serious clue to my DH and I that our son required much more EF support. He still struggles in this area, but because of the DYS community (and this place), I have a much better understanding of how/why he struggles (which, at times, was mindboggling for me, given his intellect) and how my DH and I can better scaffold him.

So, on balance, despite the poor fit with the Explore class, I am very thankful that we plugged into the DYS community. Next year will be our 10th year of homeschooling. I've noticed, over time, that these families tend to find each other. Whether here or through DYS, CTY, AoPS, or OHS, we tend to reach out for a supportive community of folks with similar kids. And, while DYS isn't a necessary precondition for PG kids/their parents to find each other, it's a really convenient and useful way to do it. So, if you have the scores, definitely do it! 🙂   

[Drama Llama]

1 hour ago, SeaConquest said:

So much this! I was fortunate to meet @Jackie and her 2e DYS through this board. They both helped me to better understand the Es I was seeing in my oldest. After my DS1 started taking meds for one of the Es, he qualified for DYS, which introduced me to more of the many flavors of PG kids. Some get PhDs before they can vote, but many do not, for a variety of reasons. Echoing others, I've also found the DYS FB groups to be most helpful because you really find a tribe of parents who just get what it's like to parent these kids. It is very freeing to not have to explain, excuse, or justify. It's a great community of genenrally kind and helpful folks.

Having said that, my son did not have the greatest experience in the Davidson Explore class he took in 5th grade. I was not aware of the course's executive functioning demands or the poor experience that many 2e kids have had in the Explore courses. In hindsight, despite the bad experience, I am glad that he took the class because it was the first serious clue to my DH and I that our son required much more EF support. He still struggles in this area, but because of the DYS community (and this place), I have a much better understanding of how/why he struggles (which, at times, was mindboggling for me, given his intellect) and how my DH and I can better scaffold him.

So, on balance, despite the poor fit with the Explore class, I am very thankful that we plugged into the DYS community. Next year will be our 10th year of homeschooling. I've noticed, over time, that these families tend to find each other. Whether here or through DYS, CTY, AoPS, or OHS, we tend to reach out for a supportive community of folks with similar kids. And, while DYS isn't a necessary precondition for PG kids/their parents to find each other, it's a really convenient and useful way to do it. So, if you have the scores, definitely do it! 🙂   

 

Thanks.

He's pretty far ahead in math, although he hides it.  I don't think he has another E.  I think it's that his interests are pretty age typical, and his focus is largely on sports and arts.  Also, because he's interested in so many things and divides his time between them, he doesn't have really spiky skills in any area. 

[Cake and Pi]

10 hours ago, BandH said:

I haven't looked at the application, other than to see what tests are required.  I thought it was kind of automatic. 

Yep, with qualifying scores on accepted tests it does seem to pretty much be an automatic acceptance. I've never heard of someone with qualifying scores NOT get accepted, and I know some parents of very 2e, academically struggling DYS who absolutely do not fit the outlier trope. They think deeply and/or make fantastic connections, possibly only in areas of interest, but they aren't what folks typically think of when they try to conjure up an image of a PG kid.

2 hours ago, SeaConquest said:

while DYS isn't a necessary precondition for PG kids/their parents to find each other, it's a really convenient and useful way to do it. So, if you have the scores, definitely do it!

Yes, this!

Plus, OP, it's free. It takes very little time or effort to apply. Then you have access to the resources and hive mind, whether you choose to use them or not.

1 hour ago, BandH said:

because he's interested in so many things and divides his time between them, he doesn't have really spiky skills in any area.

Multipotentiality, a fantastic conversation starter. But seriously, this is a legit and common PG profile--I'm in the boat that says anything DYS-qualifying counts as PG. Honestly, they can't differentiate between theoretical HG, EG, and PG levels with the testing instruments available. And over 145, higher scores don't seem to correlate with higher achievement, so you can't really differentiate HG, EG, and PG by that either!

And honestly, achievement seems to hinge largely on personality and interests. My DYS that couldn't get nominated for the gifted program in 2nd straight up failed half his core classes in online public 6th grade. This after we called the year before a gap year. He has historically shown zero interest in anything academic. Suddenly now that he's getting close to 14 he's got goals! He wants to learn Japanese so he can watch his anime shows without subtitles, asked for a stock market class so he can learn how to take over the (financial) world, and applied for (and got accepted into?!) DAO Geometry because he enjoyed the format of Explore Algebra, liked the kids he met in the class, and really really didn't want to have to learn math from me. Ah, motivation. He's never going to be radically accelerated like his younger brother and isn't at all spikey, but that's okay. It doesn't make him any less PG.

[Dmmetler]

I think it's now very automatic. They used to ask for a lot more (we applied back when you needed a portfolio of work samples in multiple areas), but I think, in 20/20 hindsight, that was used more to pair you with a FC and to try to connect you with programs vs actual acceptance, because they dropped that when they dropped the individual family support folks.

 

And I think everyone comes into DYS feeling their kid managed to slip in and really isn't qualified. It wasn't until our first Summit, when I saw L SO comfortable with other kids for the first time...like...ever, and when L thrived at STARS, that I realized that, yeah, we were in the right place. And having that summer gathering where other kids on a similar path, who did the same online classes (although one might be 7 and another 14 and both be in the same AoPS or Athena's class), who also were the youngest kid on a college campus, who blended in but never quite felt comfortable at a regular school, who were considered the best ever, most talented at X, but were convinced in their very depths that they must not be very good because it was too easy, who felt like they were failing if they ever were less than perfect.... it made it all come together. It gave my kid a community, even though it was dispersed. 

 

Saying that Agnes felt like a DYS event was the highest praise L could give. 

 

I really missed it this summer, now that L's aged out.  I'm very glad the FB groups don't kick alumni parents out. 

[Drama Llama]

7 hours ago, Dmmetler said:

I think it's now very automatic. They used to ask for a lot more (we applied back when you needed a portfolio of work samples in multiple areas), but I think, in 20/20 hindsight, that was used more to pair you with a FC and to try to connect you with programs vs actual acceptance, because they dropped that when they dropped the individual family support folks.

You still need a portfolio if you use ACT or SAT scores, but his qualifying scores are SSAT, IQ, Woodcock Johnson, ERB, stuff like that.

7 hours ago, Dmmetler said:

 

And I think everyone comes into DYS feeling their kid managed to slip in and really isn't qualified. It wasn't until our first Summit, when I saw L SO comfortable with other kids for the first time...like...ever, and when L thrived at STARS, that I realized that, yeah, we were in the right place. And having that summer gathering where other kids on a similar path, who did the same online classes (although one might be 7 and another 14 and both be in the same AoPS or Athena's class), who also were the youngest kid on a college campus, who blended in but never quite felt comfortable at a regular school, who were considered the best ever, most talented at X, but were convinced in their very depths that they must not be very good because it was too easy, who felt like they were failing if they ever were less than perfect.... it made it all come together. It gave my kid a community, even though it was dispersed. 

 

Saying that Agnes felt like a DYS event was the highest praise L could give. 

 

I really missed it this summer, now that L's aged out.  I'm very glad the FB groups don't kick alumni parents out. 

Did you know she was uncomfortable before that?

A lot of the way you describe L, or the way I would describe his brother, don’t apply to him.  He doesn’t seem uncomfortable, or want to take classes or go to college yet. 

I think I need to figure out a way to test him in a setting with more gifted kids this fall, because if I am just missing something, and he would love it, that helps narrow down school ideas.  We have a very competitive magnet here, for example.
 

He didn’t want CTY camps and it’s too late for DYS stuff this summer.  I would have a hard time selling him on an online class unless it was kind of perfect, and I don’t know that online will help.

Ideas?

[Dmmetler]

It was starting to become an issue because the older kids (and their parents) didn't want a little kid, but the academic level between a 7 yr old doing addition and one doing algebra was starting to become an issue. That was when we had situations like L choosing to research topics that we were going to do in a world studies co-op and planning things to share,only to be told it was making the other kids "feel bad".  L was learning that in order to fit in, you needed to deny academic interests and skills. 

We got involved with Belin-Blank first, at Quark's suggestion, and they helped us get the testing for DYS. L was also one of the kids followed for one of their studies on early math talent for a few years. 

 

Even then, though, I definitely had imposter syndrome by proxy-until I saw how good a SOCIAL fit it was. 

[Drama Llama]

9 hours ago, Dmmetler said:

It was starting to become an issue because the older kids (and their parents) didn't want a little kid, but the academic level between a 7 yr old doing addition and one doing algebra was starting to become an issue. That was when we had situations like L choosing to research topics that we were going to do in a world studies co-op and planning things to share,only to be told it was making the other kids "feel bad".  L was learning that in order to fit in, you needed to deny academic interests and skills. 

We got involved with Belin-Blank first, at Quark's suggestion, and they helped us get the testing for DYS. L was also one of the kids followed for one of their studies on early math talent for a few years. 

 

Even then, though, I definitely had imposter syndrome by proxy-until I saw how good a SOCIAL fit it was. 

Thank you!  This is super helpful

Are there components of DYS that are just social?   I know there are a lot of social things at Summit, but that would be hard for us because I'd have to go, and using my limited leave for something that I couldn't take both kids to would be hard, especially because summer is my busy season at work.  It's hard for me to know what he needs, but he is pretty clear that he wants less school, and less being told what to do academically.   If I told him he had to pick something and go, he'd go because he's pretty cooperative, but there is no way he'd choose to spend 3 weeks of his precious summer on a college campus taking a college class.  And I think maybe that's where I struggle, that in my mind "very gifted" and "likes adult directed academics" are entangled.  I guess it's possible that he'd get there and discover that he does like adult directed academics if they're on his level.  Or that being pushed academically is important enough to force it.  That's sort of what I'm trying to sort out before we pick high school.  

Sorry, I feel like I'm rambling.  The test scores make me feel like I'm failing him, and I'm kind of stuck.  That and grieving the opportunity to do this with a kid who would love it.  

Please don't quote, I will eventually delete this.  

 

[Dmmetler]

It really depends on where you are. If you're in an area with a larger population, there's more likelihood of social events. We prioritized going to Summit because you could do a DIG for everyone in a 2 hour radius and hit, maybe 2-3 families. Often at Summit, we were the only family from several states adjoining ours. Talent search was pretty sparse, too. That yearly in person made keeping those contacts via online classes (mostly Athena's and G3, which have moderated social forums. Both of the founders, and most of the instructors at both are DYS parents (or, more and more, former students) who really understood that need) and DYS workshops. 

 

If you're in, say, the Bay area of CA, there is stuff all the time. 

 

FWIW, L found THINK far less social and satisfying than STARS, because 2 classes in three weeks was so much time spent on academics that it made things like the weekend activities-and really, any social time-hard to enjoy. STARS had just enough academics to give something to talk about, and was essentially a social skills camp for gifted kids. I suspect a big difference was that also, by that time, L was doing college classes and had the academic piece met pretty well. For a kid who is doing grade level work and not challenged, that intense burst might be just what they need. 

 

We met L's long time bestie (and one of my best adult friends) through DYS, and that, by itself, made the application worth it. Because having one friend who really gets it-and until college, it really was just that one friend-makes life so much better. 

Edited July 6, 2023 by Dmmetler

[Drama Llama]

He will be 13 turning 14 next summer and rising 9th.  Is that THINK? 

Next summer is too late though if the goal is to figure out if this is something I need to figure into high school placement. 

Edited July 6, 2023 by BandH

[Dmmetler]

They've added REACH in the middle, which didn't exist then, so I'm not sure what the breakdown is. It used to be STARS 8-12, THINK 13-16. 

THINK allows direct applications-the others require being a DYS, but I'm not sure anyone who wasn't already in Davidson did it in 2019 (and we didn't pursue the "online due to COVID" versions). 

 

I'll also reiterate what's stated higher. There are definitely "quiet" DYS kids, and "loud" DYS kids. The "loud" ones are the ones you hear about, who graduate from college and go to grad school at age 13 and end up in every media outlet,who win national or international competitions, who get book contracts, who go to work at Space X before they can drive. (And others who are less visible, by choice). They're the kids everyone thinks of as "gifted". 

 

There's also the loud kids for different reasons. The ones who are struggling and flunk everything, while doing projects at much higher levels at home. The ones with mental health issues who need a ton of support. The ones who have no friends. The ones who drop out of high school. The ones who self-medicate. They're "gifted" too. 

 

The "quiet" ones graduate from high school fairly close to their chronological age mates, have friends, pursue interests outside of school, go to college, often with good scholarships, and often are seen as less "gifted". 

 

I don't think it has much to do with giftedness as to do with personality and opportunities. 2e kids are sometimes spiky just due to the fact their special interests drive the academics. (L is pretty definitely in that group). Areas with more opportunities with regards to schools and extracurriculars (which, in turn, has a lot to do with the community you're in) make it easier to find a good fit without moving way out of your age group. Kids highly involved in athletics or the arts who can find those opportunities often don't need to move as fast academically because they've got that outlet. Kids who are 2e in other ways may only be identifiable when neuropsych testing is done for other reasons. Lots of variables. 

 

The right situation can turn a loud kid into a quiet one-and usually that's a good thing, not a bad one. If your DS is quiet, it probably means his needs are being met pretty well. And a quiet kid can also become very loud, quite suddenly. 

 

But, when you put them together, the quiet kids and the loud kids all definitely have more in common than not. And when you talk to the parents, often the parenting issues and emotional aspects are similar, too. And that's really where DYS is helpful-because EVERYTHING your kid is experiencing, someone has been through it and come out the other side. 

 

And, it's a lot more private than here or GHF or similar groups. One reason why the first group of "Loud" kids gets all the attention is that there are very strict privacy requirements to protect the kids and families who do not want attention-but it's an iceberg. There's a LOT more under the surface. 

 

 

Edited July 6, 2023 by Dmmetler

[Drama Llama]

What is GHF?

[Dmmetler]

Gifted Homeschoolers Forum. It's on FB. 

[Drama Llama]

2 hours ago, Dmmetler said:

Gifted Homeschoolers Forum. It's on FB. 

That makes sense!  Since I'm neither homeschooling (I am going to plead temporary insanity as my justification for my posts)  or on FB that's probably not a fit for us.  

[Drama Llama]

3 hours ago, Dmmetler said:

They've added REACH in the middle, which didn't exist then, so I'm not sure what the breakdown is. It used to be STARS 8-12, THINK 13-16. 

THINK allows direct applications-the others require being a DYS, but I'm not sure anyone who wasn't already in Davidson did it in 2019 (and we didn't pursue the "online due to COVID" versions). 

 

I'll also reiterate what's stated higher. There are definitely "quiet" DYS kids, and "loud" DYS kids. The "loud" ones are the ones you hear about, who graduate from college and go to grad school at age 13 and end up in every media outlet,who win national or international competitions, who get book contracts, who go to work at Space X before they can drive. (And others who are less visible, by choice). They're the kids everyone thinks of as "gifted". 

It's funny to think of my kid as "quiet" because if you were talking about actual volume he is definitely "loud".  But yes, I see what you mean.  He blends in pretty well at school.  

3 hours ago, Dmmetler said:

 

There's also the loud kids for different reasons. The ones who are struggling and flunk everything, while doing projects at much higher levels at home. The ones with mental health issues who need a ton of support. The ones who have no friends. The ones who drop out of high school. The ones who self-medicate. They're "gifted" too. 

 

The "quiet" ones graduate from high school fairly close to their chronological age mates, have friends, pursue interests outside of school, go to college, often with good scholarships, and often are seen as less "gifted". 

 

I don't think it has much to do with giftedness as to do with personality and opportunities. 2e kids are sometimes spiky just due to the fact their special interests drive the academics. (L is pretty definitely in that group). Areas with more opportunities with regards to schools and extracurriculars (which, in turn, has a lot to do with the community you're in) make it easier to find a good fit without moving way out of your age group. Kids highly involved in athletics or the arts who can find those opportunities often don't need to move as fast academically because they've got that outlet. Kids who are 2e in other ways may only be identifiable when neuropsych testing is done for other reasons. Lots of variables. 

He is not 2e, unless you count some trauma related behaviors.   I think that's part of what befuddles me is that I have a lot of experience with 2e as both mom and special ed teacher.  

He is also pretty heavily involved in sports, so maybe that's meeting his needs. 

3 hours ago, Dmmetler said:

 

The right situation can turn a loud kid into a quiet one-and usually that's a good thing, not a bad one. If your DS is quiet, it probably means his needs are being met pretty well. And a quiet kid can also become very loud, quite suddenly. 

 

But, when you put them together, the quiet kids and the loud kids all definitely have more in common than not. And when you talk to the parents, often the parenting issues and emotional aspects are similar, too. And that's really where DYS is helpful-because EVERYTHING your kid is experiencing, someone has been through it and come out the other side. 

 

3 hours ago, Dmmetler said:

 

And, it's a lot more private than here or GHF or similar groups. One reason why the first group of "Loud" kids gets all the attention is that there are very strict privacy requirements to protect the kids and families who do not want attention-but it's an iceberg. There's a LOT more under the surface. 

 

 

 

[Not_a_Number]

On 6/28/2023 at 12:47 AM, Cake and Pi said:

There's a surprising number of 2e, underperforming, and happy-to-do-whatever-age-peers-are-doing DYS kids, and it's nice to have folks to commiserate and troubleshoot with.

DD10 is like this. She's anxious, so she often winds up avoiding things that challenge her and just coasts. Her kindergarten teacher didn't even think she was gifted; neither did a teacher she had at our local homeschooling center. (At home, she's ready for calculus at the end of Grade 5 and consistently tests at the 99th percentile. But people don't see that.) 

I don't think she's precisely 2E -- she definitely didn't seem it when she was younger and while she's quirkier now, I'd say she's still below threshold. But her emotional issues definitely keep her from performing. 

Edited July 6, 2023 by Not_a_Number

[Not_a_Number]

3 hours ago, BandH said:

That makes sense!  Since I'm neither homeschooling (I am going to plead temporary insanity as my justification for my posts)  or on FB that's probably not a fit for us.  

Are you no longer considering it? 

[Drama Llama]

10 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Are you no longer considering it? 

It’s not right for our family.
 

[Not_a_Number]

8 minutes ago, BandH said:

It’s not right for our family.

Awww. And here I thought you might come back to the dark side with the rest of us!

[Drama Llama]

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

DD10 is like this. She's anxious, so she often winds up avoiding things that challenge her and just coasts. Her kindergarten teacher didn't even think she was gifted; neither did a teacher she had at our local homeschooling center. (At home, she's ready for calculus at the end of Grade 5 and consistently tests at the 99th percentile. But people don't see that.) 

I don't think she's precisely 2E -- she definitely didn't seem it when she was younger and while she's quirkier now, I'd say she's still below threshold. But her emotional issues definitely keep her from performing. 

Is she in DYS?  

[Not_a_Number]

20 minutes ago, BandH said:

Is she in DYS?  

Nope. Just musing about the fact that gifted kids can sometimes blend in for surprising reasons and it's not a reason to assume that a gifted support structure wouldn't be helpful. 

ETA: My apologies if that was unhelpful or off-topic. I'll bow out now. 

Edited July 7, 2023 by Not_a_Number

[Drama Llama]

2 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

Nope. Just musing about the fact that gifted kids can sometimes blend in for surprising reasons and it's not a reason to assume that a gifted support structure wouldn't be helpful. 

ETA: My apologies if that was unhelpful or off-topic. I'll bow out now. 

No you aren't being unhelpful at all, I'm. just wondering if you tried this specific thing.  But also if you have other ideas.  

I feel like @Dmmetler's kids and @Cake and Pi's kids sound like they get so much out of it but they also sound more like my middle kid than this guy. 

[SeaConquest]

Maybe look at PG Retreat or Yunasa/IEA. We joined PGR awhile ago, but never went because of the pandemic. We were booked for the 2020 Summit, but it was canceled. At the time, I didn't realize that my younger DS wouldn't be able to do anything there because he is not a DYS. That doesn't work for us, so I would attend PGR before Summit, if I were to do it again.

[Drama Llama]

36 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

Maybe look at PG Retreat or Yunasa/IEA. We joined PGR awhile ago, but never went because of the pandemic. We were booked for the 2020 Summit, but it was canceled. At the time, I didn't realize that my younger DS wouldn't be able to do anything there because he is not a DYS. That doesn't work for us, so I would attend PGR before Summit, if I were to do it again.

If I am reading it right on my phone, PGR requires higher scores.  He isn’t going to meet that cut off.  His scores are in the 150’s.  

I can’t find YUNASA’s criteria.

The sibling thing is an issue.  He is old enough to go to camp or something without me, but I want to spend my week of summer vacation with both my kids.  

[Dmmetler]

The pattern of one kid being very LOUD gifted and another being much, much quieter is a super common family profile. There are SO many families in DYS who didn't think their sibling kid would qualify until they were tested for some other reason, because they stood out less than a different child in the same family, were successful and not rocking the boat at school, and often had outside of school interests.

 

Nothing you've said here makes me think that your DS wouldn't thrive in DYS as a whole and that you wouldn't find connections there. For every "thrives at THINK" kid, there are plenty of DYS who look at the idea of spending 3 weeks doing school in the summer and would rather hit the soccer field or pool. And that's fine.  And his questioning about homeschooling makes me think that maybe he wants to turn up the volume a little somewhere, if he has the time to do it. 

 

The fact is, many, many gifted kids do great without DYS. And so do their parents. It's not the only route to finding support or finding what they need. But it's a useful tool and if you have the scores, a fairly easy one to access. For us, the summer programming was extremely helpful, but that doesn't mean it will be for you. 

 

[Drama Llama]

7 hours ago, Dmmetler said:

The pattern of one kid being very LOUD gifted and another being much, much quieter is a super common family profile. There are SO many families in DYS who didn't think their sibling kid would qualify until they were tested for some other reason, because they stood out less than a different child in the same family, were successful and not rocking the boat at school, and often had outside of school interests.

My older kid has been tested, so I know he doesn't have DYS scores.  It's funny because a lot of people just assume that the musician who is quiet, and polite, and not a "dumb jock" must be the only smart one.   

7 hours ago, Dmmetler said:

 

Nothing you've said here makes me think that your DS wouldn't thrive in DYS as a whole and that you wouldn't find connections there. For every "thrives at THINK" kid, there are plenty of DYS who look at the idea of spending 3 weeks doing school in the summer and would rather hit the soccer field or pool. And that's fine.

Other than Summit, which I don't think works for us, and THINK, which I guess I could force, I still don't think I truly understand what else it entails.  

I think that I am probably really triggered by the idea of taking one kid to something that my other kid would have loved so much, and so I'm not processing very well, because beyond the Summit, and things that feel like school or virtual school, I don't know what being "in" DYS would mean. 

7 hours ago, Dmmetler said:

 And his questioning about homeschooling makes me think that maybe he wants to turn up the volume a little somewhere, if he has the time to do it. 

Yes, but he wants to turn it up on things he chooses and directs. 

I guess that's the question.  How do we explore what "turning up the volume" could mean.  Does DYS offer some way to do that that doesn't feel like school?  Is there some other program that would that I'm missing?

7 hours ago, Dmmetler said:

 

The fact is, many, many gifted kids do great without DYS. And so do their parents. It's not the only route to finding support or finding what they need. But it's a useful tool and if you have the scores, a fairly easy one to access. For us, the summer programming was extremely helpful, but that doesn't mean it will be for you. 

 

To clarify on Summit.  Summer is a really busy time at work.  I get one week of leave that I can use in the summer.  If I was still staying home, or I could do Summit and a vacation with my other kid, or something, that would be different.  Or if we had two parents and could each do something fun with one kid.  

 

[Not_a_Number]

52 minutes ago, BandH said:

Yes, but he wants to turn it up on things he chooses and directs. 

That has always been the case for us, too. Especially with DD10 but really with both kids to some extent.

I’m wondering if part of the idea with DYS might just be inspiring peers? 

 

19 hours ago, BandH said:

No you aren't being unhelpful at all, I'm. just wondering if you tried this specific thing.  But also if you have other ideas.  

I feel like @Dmmetler's kids and @Cake and Pi's kids sound like they get so much out of it but they also sound more like my middle kid than this guy. 

Hmmm. Yeah. I see what you mean.

We’ve never done anything particularly aimed at gifted kids. I’ve collected bright peers for our co-op, but we’ve never looked for kids that are as smart as DD10. And the one friend she has who’s really bright she doesn’t click with as well as some others.

I can imagine it being inspiring, though. When we run classes for the co-op, DD10 is mostly on top. I sometimes think it’d be good for her to be exposed to other really bright kids.

[Not_a_Number]

54 minutes ago, BandH said:

I think that I am probably really triggered by the idea of taking one kid to something that my other kid would have loved so much, and so I'm not processing very well, because beyond the Summit, and things that feel like school or virtual school, I don't know what being "in" DYS would mean. 

Big hugs. Of course you are. That’s so hard 😕.

[Dmmetler]

It's also nice to have the parent network, although I do think it was easier two websites ago. The informal groups for specific topics and for regions are also really good, but if you donmt do FB, that's limiting there. DYS was how we first connected with herpetologists who were in a position to open doors-people who, could, for example, get a 9 yr old an invitation to participate in a program designed for Juniors and seniors in high school. 

 

I don't know what that might look like for your DS, but chances are super, super high that for any given interest, there's someone in the DYS community who can help connect you with ways to support it where you are. 

 

As far as school choices, a parent has probably had a kid in almost any program out there, especially in bigger urban areas or online, and can give input. The same with colleges. 

You may not need it, or may not find it useful-or you might.

 

 

 

 

[Drama Llama]

17 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

It's also nice to have the parent network, although I do think it was easier two websites ago. The informal groups for specific topics and for regions are also really good, but if you donmt do FB, that's limiting there. DYS was how we first connected with herpetologists who were in a position to open doors-people who, could, for example, get a 9 yr old an invitation to participate in a program designed for Juniors and seniors in high school. 

 

I don't know what that might look like for your DS, but chances are super, super high that for any given interest, there's someone in the DYS community who can help connect you with ways to support it where you are. 

 

As far as school choices, a parent has probably had a kid in almost any program out there, especially in bigger urban areas or online, and can give input. The same with colleges. 

You may not need it, or may not find it useful-or you might.

 

 

 

 

OK, so this is where I feel like I am obviously missing something.  If I didn't go to Summit and he didn't go to camp how would I know who is in the DYS community?  When you say there are groups, aren't those groups at Summit?  

[Dmmetler]

3 hours ago, BandH said:

OK, so this is where I feel like I am obviously missing something.  If I didn't go to Summit and he didn't go to camp how would I know who is in the DYS community?  When you say there are groups, aren't those groups at Summit?  

No, not entirely. There is a whole DYS online community, both the official one and the DIGs (Davidson Informal Gathering) groups. Some are general, some are more focused. There are regional ones,where you might connect with others in your area (depends on your area) as well as ones that span across the country. Most of the networking happens online. The summer programs are a nice way to connect to people you already are in contact with. 

[Drama Llama]

6 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

No, not entirely. There is a whole DYS online community, both the official one and the DIGs (Davidson Informal Gathering) groups. Some are general, some are more focused. There are regional ones,where you might connect with others in your area (depends on your area) as well as ones that span across the country. Most of the networking happens online. The summer programs are a nice way to connect to people you already are in contact with. 

So, is it like here?  Discussion forums but you need to qualify?