Language Arts for 5th/6th Grade with ADHD/Mild Dyslexia

[mrsfellman]

Good morning! I am currently working on our homeschool plans for next year and needed to find a better fit for my DC#2 in LA. We have been doing somewhat off and on the Logic of English Essentials Lessons 1-7. They are not hard for him but hard on our family schedule to execute. I also am an undiagnosed parent with similar issues as my DC#2. We both shared in Vision Therapy a few years back with slightly different convergence issues. All that to say I think I am the biggest issue in our lack of success with LOE. 

We have used MCT with my oldest in the past and a I think it the artisticness of the series would greatly appeal to my DC#2. However, since he is heading into "6th Year of Study" I'm wondering about moving over to W&R or possibly LIGHTLY pairing the two. MCT for Grammar and W&R to practice writing skills. He loves doing online work and resists anything that involves physical writing. I usually help him in math by writing half the problems for him as he dictates what to write and then have him write the rest himself. 

He also resists physical reading as much as possible but LOVES good Audiobooks. W&R has the audiofiles to go along with the books so I'm thinking that may prove to be a good fit. 

These are my thoughts so far but I'd love to hear about other ideas that I haven't explored so far. We need as little parent involvement as I can get away with and ideally some level of video/online/audio support.

[Storygirl]

I didn't use the programs that you mention, and by the time my learning challenged children were in that grade (6th? 5th? not sure what level you mean), they were in school and had IEPs. My dyslexic child went to a dyslexia school. So I am not much help with your situation and hope others will chime in.

I can't tell from your post whether you have had the ADHD and dyslexia documented through evaluations. I would recommend that you start a paper trail, so that your child can apply for accommodations for college testing, when that time comes. That would include any official testing results and recommendations, and also should include a list of accomodations that you provide for him as his teacher (such as audio versions of texts, scribing, being able to type instead of write, etc.). Unfortunately, in my experience, my kids with learning disabilities have needed a lot of intervention support, first from me, then from teachers, so I don't have advice about reducing parent time. Has the dyslexia been remediated?

[PeterPan]

On 3/10/2023 at 10:09 AM, mrsfellman said:

He also resists physical reading as much as possible but LOVES good Audiobooks.

Have you done immersion reading? Does that work for him? It's very informative if it does *not* work, because that would point in a different direction for your testing/intervention.

On 3/10/2023 at 10:09 AM, mrsfellman said:

MCT for Grammar and W&R to practice writing skills. He loves doing online work and resists anything that involves physical writing.

MCT is aimed at a gifted audience (fine) with no disabilities, meaning it's not breaking down instruction into explicit steps. It may be fine or it may be too big a leap with too many assumptions, depending on where he functions. Again, thorough SLP evals would sort that out. My suggestion in general is to look at something with clear structure that is likely to be a success. Remedia has an Outlining workbook that WTM/SWB used to recommend. I just picked it up to use with my ds. If you want the grammar independent, you can decrease writing demands by selecting something with multiple choice or allowing him to draw lines, use a marker to highlight, etc. 

On 3/10/2023 at 10:09 AM, mrsfellman said:

We need as little parent involvement as I can get away with and ideally some level of video/online/audio support.

It's obvious when you think about it, but the research shows the most academic gains with *engaged learning* at instructional level. Independent work is below instructional level and does not bring the academic gains that your engaged learning times will have. When you have less time to work 1:1 to promote that engaged time at instructional level, it helps to FOCUS on 1-3 areas. So maybe grammar slides this year and is independent but math and outlining/narrative language are at instructional level. Maybe your goal with reading is increasing quantity via immersion reading (if it works) and getting therapy to address the underlying language processing deficits if it can't work.

You want to pick what to FOCUS on and what to do more lightly, rather than doing all things at the same level.

[Storygirl]

I know that homeschoolers don't always want to compare what they do with brick and mortar schools. But I will mention that by 5th grade, schools are not prioritizing grammar instruction, and by sixth grade, language arts classes generally do not include it. So, piggybacking on PeterPan's suggestions, I would focus on reading and writing and would not do a separate grammar program when time is an issue. You can address misuse of grammar conventions in the writing instruction, if needed.

For a dyslexic student, working on spelling will generally be more important than grammar (assuming the student can write a decent sentence). Also, teach how to use spellcheck and Grammarly to edit his own typewritten work. Using text to speech to write is also very helpful (though not with math).

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Storygirl said:

would not do a separate grammar program when time is an issue. You can address misuse of grammar conventions in the writing instruction, if needed.

That is such an excellent point. I do grammar with my ds because he has language disabilities that the grammar programs target. I'm talking basic, spoken english. I'm trying to get his reading comprehension up, so anything language is working toward that goal. And I think she's right that a lot of traditional grammar is aimed at conventions (things speakers without a disability don't have a problem with) or building their explicit knowledge of language as a springboard to foreign language studies. But with my dd, who was fine understanding the grammar in a foreign language and who had no issues with conventions or spoken language, we did most of a grade 7 text (Shurley) and moved on. You really do decide which dead horse to beat and why, lol, totally agree.

[Nm.]

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Edited March 16, 2023 by Lovinglife123

[mrsfellman]

DC#2 was tested/evaluated last summer when he was 9 yrs old and between "4th" and "5th" grade by a Dr. who has the following..."Doctorate in Clinical Christian Counseling, a Masters Degree in Multi-categorical Disabilities, is a Dyslexia Remediation Specialist, an Attention Specialist, Certified Educational Therapist, ADD/ADHD Coach, a Reading Specialist, and a Board Certified Cognitive Specialist." She was recommended by our Pediatrician. She gave us a 504 plan and he is doing therapy sessions once a week for 45 mins. Because we have to drive to a different towns we only go 1x a week but I'm thinking of taking him the recommended 2x a week. She updated me this week that he has been certain progression that has now enabled her to start working on some reading comprehension skills now. 

DC#2 was HIGHLY verbal from a very early age. I.E. before he turned two he was saying long sentences like "Mommy, come get me out of here." Speech was so clearly enunciated that strangers understood all his words. About two months after turning two he stood on a tree stump and announced "this is spectacular". So when we started having so much trouble with him in K and 1st grade with reading and writing I reached out on here. I believe it was you, PeterPan that recommended I have evaluated for Vision Issues and in 2019 we took him to a Board Certificate Vision Therapist. He had convergence excess and some other issues. We did all the recommended therapy for that and he "graduated" from there in late 2019. Then the world turned sideways in 2020 and I put off getting any further evals until last Summer. 

The Dr. who we are currently work with recommends that we "move him back a grade" but since we homeschool and the only place "grade level" matter is at church I have just adjusted his curriculum at home and left him in the 5th grade Sunday School class this year. Not sure how to proceed in the future years. If he is an out of sync child that may move back more "in sync" in the future as we ages or what will happen.

These last two years we have focused on Math, Veritas Press History's Self Pace Courses (he likes those) and listening to good audio books and being read too. We did do WTMP's First Language Lessons last year in 4th grade. In 3rd grade we read through Grammar Island but didn't do the practice books. He LOVES stories and words, especially "powerful" words. 

[mrsfellman]

20 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Have you done immersion reading? Does that work for him? It's very informative if it does *not* work, because that would point in a different direction for your testing/intervention.

I have never heard of immersion reading. Can you tell me more about it or point me in a good direction to read about it?

 

18 hours ago, Storygirl said:

For a dyslexic student, working on spelling will generally be more important than grammar (assuming the student can write a decent sentence). Also, teach how to use spellcheck and Grammarly to edit his own typewritten work. Using text to speech to write is also very helpful (though not with math).

We both hate spelling and therefore don't work as much on it as we probably should. However, we are starting realize that there are tools available these days that help, such as your suggestions of talk to type and grammarly. He asks Alexa to spell stuff to him all the time but he is copying it down. He loves to draw "comics" and can spend hours doing that with his own narration.

This year we are slowly working on cursive handwriting hoping that might be easier for him. I personally hate physical handwriting myself and do not have very "pretty" penmanship. However, I am a pianist, violinist and knit and crochet all the time. But different fine motors skills?? Not sure why I hate the one and love the others.

[kbutton]

On 3/10/2023 at 10:09 AM, mrsfellman said:

We have used MCT with my oldest in the past and a I think it the artisticness of the series would greatly appeal to my DC#2. However, since he is heading into "6th Year of Study" I'm wondering about moving over to W&R or possibly LIGHTLY pairing the two. MCT for Grammar and W&R to practice writing skills. He loves doing online work and resists anything that involves physical writing. I usually help him in math by writing half the problems for him as he dictates what to write and then have him write the rest himself. 

He also resists physical reading as much as possible but LOVES good Audiobooks. W&R has the audiofiles to go along with the books so I'm thinking that may prove to be a good fit. 

These are my thoughts so far but I'd love to hear about other ideas that I haven't explored so far. We need as little parent involvement as I can get away with and ideally some level of video/online/audio support.

I don't love MCT writing, but I do love the grammar. Is he a big picture kid? Does he understand the concepts? If so, a lot of people alternate MCT grammar (with the 4-level analysis) with something more structured and cut and dry since MCT doesn't have a level for every single grade. While it is for gifted kids with no disabilities, a lot of 2e kids do well with it--mine definitely did (one is dyslexic, one has autism, both have handwriting issues, both have narrow but deep language issues). It's very easy to scribe for him for the 4-level analysis. My kids also liked traditional diagramming, so we would eventually learn to diagram and just toss a diagram up in the margins. They liked the visual nature of diagramming. If you like MCT, and it's working, I would just alternate with something more straightforward.

If he's not understanding the concepts, something that would pair well with W and R fables is the Aesop's Fables grammar stuff from Royal Fireworks Press, but you should take a look to see if it's too little kid for him. It's very sweet, has little writing, and is very visually appealing. The samples online should be helpful. My second son just loved these books.

I didn't use W and R, but it seemed to be well-scaffolded for kids with narrative language issues, which often go with dyslexia.

Have you ever seen stuff from Rooted in Language? They offer some curriculum and then also parent-training that can pair with curriculum (or give you skills to go out on your own) for working through a variety of language issues. Their stuff is more...free form...than I liked, but it's solid, and I did parallel things with my kids, just in a more structured way. Anyway, their stuff is good, and they deal with a LOT of handwriting issues, including workarounds while not giving up entirely on handwriting.

On 3/15/2023 at 10:27 AM, mrsfellman said:

We both hate spelling and therefore don't work as much on it as we probably should. 

This year we are slowly working on cursive handwriting hoping that might be easier for him. I personally hate physical handwriting myself and do not have very "pretty" penmanship. However, I am a pianist, violinist and knit and crochet all the time. But different fine motors skills?? Not sure why I hate the one and love the others.

We had visual/pattern spellers even though both had a really solid phonics background. We used Sequential Spelling. It starts with a base word, like spell, and then it adds prefixes and suffixes. You can use it a variety of ways, including using a base color on a white board and adding suffixes with a different color. You can do it orally, written, or typed. It reinforces writing patterns and typing patterns. All corrections are immediate. I had my kids type the lists as soon as they could type proficiently (meaning they could correct mistakes while typing, and they didn't panic and just push random keys to get faster). It was like rocket fuel for typing!

My DH has excellent fine motor skills, but his writing still feels like drawing 40+ years after learning how to write. It's okay! 

We emphasized automaticity with the correct motor patterns (including big writing on a white board using full arm motions, etc.) even if it was illegible. Then neat enough to read. Then whatever improved from there was icing on the cake. 

We used NAC for cursive (Memoria Press) for the one that learned at home (one of my kids went to school K-2), and I had to break it down into tinier bits than they gave us. I used phonics patterns for handwriting lessons, and that helped with patterns also.

Each family and individual has to decide how much effort to pour into handwriting and why--I was okay with going slowly and also typing, but I wanted my kids to be able to do both well enough to get by if they were capable of it. Also, writing helped them with things like using utensils too, so it was synergistic. 

I feel like visual issues delay these things so much! And retained reflexes too, which are often what is causing the visual issues. 

 

If he struggles with anything you're interested in or that we suggested, then it's time to get a full language evaluation with an SLP. Your evaluation looks like a good one, but it sounds like the evaluator has a hodge-podge of qualifications vs. something really straightforward like an educational psychologist or a neuropsych would have (which would be more like a master's followed by a doctorate without all the add-ons), but psychologists don't necessarily do educational intervention (you usually have to find someone to do that part). Psychologists would be looking at it more holistically, I think, but your person might be really wise and have just followed a different pathway as she saw a need and is intuitive about applying that knowledge helpfully. It sounds like a person who is trying to work with a "scared of secular mental health resources" crowd or "Christian School counselor trying to wear many hats" kind of person. Or just someone who is seeing a need and trying to get resources under her belt to meet that need. None of that is bad, it's just different and will have its own strengths (intervention) and weaknesses (more narrow testing).

[PeterPan]

On 3/15/2023 at 10:27 AM, mrsfellman said:

I have never heard of immersion reading. Can you tell me more about it or point me in a good direction to read about it?

https://help.audible.com/s/article/what-is-immersion-reading?language=en_US