C/P: Interesting article about college standards and student behavior

[Innisfree]

Quote

In the field of organic chemistry, Maitland Jones Jr. has a storied reputation. He taught the subject for decades, first at Princeton and then at New York University, and wrote an influential textbook. He received awards for his teaching, as well as recognition as one of N.Y.U.’s coolestprofessors.

But last spring, as the campus emerged from pandemic restrictions, 82 of his 350 students signed a petition against him.

Students said the high-stakes course — notorious for ending many a dream of medical school — was too hard, blaming Dr. Jones for their poor test scores.

The professor defended his standards. But just before the start of the fall semester, university deans terminated Dr. Jones’s contract.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/03/us/nyu-organic-chemistry-petition.html?unlocked_article_code=maXHYAuOOz-CaJNrHuyP_N3ftE2IMPHg5ygYMN5Pz86U7EbJOUIy8nzcVymcVlIG8N02L_ry2MrWQyhywm09zJ6JzfX_KHIUAEeB8Pj0FFa4GZurGVhdo7IF8oHDciwRdoJMqMFIBXFUg839FNXkWW1oQ54GF0kP5Mb1Y-LtQq_ZrK1WZJaIvYs22hD8Zgmx0lY_ETFloP23BU2WjzbbUwxH3HrQ4ntRbueUqSU7J1qDubBedtpBboh5vG-bLXYC6dxIMLOBokIdIEmb-4TfGXCqhDgk14dg7vByDPb8c533Lua--BCAyApUrnulvQgUdRCsjOI9FJoA2fv5StFkt8jx6bI&smid=share-url
 

I’ve gifted the article, so it shouldn’t be paywalled. Interesting questions about how students are studying, or not, and who’s responsible if they fail. I’m cross posting on Chat, since that gets a lot more traffic than this board.

The change in student study habits noted in the article seems to predate Covid. My own dd has noted it on her campus. What’s up with this, and how do you feel about NYU’s decision?

[almondbutterandjelly]

I think a teacher's job is teaching and if most of the kids are failing, it's probably not them, it's you.  I would have to see his syllabus to really get a sense of what was happening in the classes, but I do believe it might be him.

[Innisfree]

47 minutes ago, perky said:

I think a teacher's job is teaching and if most of the kids are failing, it's probably not them, it's you.  I would have to see his syllabus to really get a sense of what was happening in the classes, but I do believe it might be him.

Except it wasn’t most of the class; about a quarter signed the petition. 
 

Adding— organic chemistry has always been known as a hard class. Having a quarter do poorly isn’t surprising. A solid knowledge of organic chemistry is essential for people hoping to practice medicine, and medical schools don’t have space for all the truly qualified students. So, maybe having a weeder class is appropriate.

Edited October 4, 2022 by Innisfree

[MamaSprout]

I have seen the lack of reading in my own classes, and unfortunately, with my youngest kiddo. I suspect it's too much reading of scrolling text. She just go a 0 on the multiple choice section of a test... while getting almost everything correct on the short answer section. Really? Perhaps reading more carefully next time? 

 

[Clemsondana]

It could be that the prof is a poor teacher, but it's also possible to get groups of students with unreasonable expectations.  My first CC class was a lab, meaning that I had very little flexibility.  I started with 24 students, and in the end only 3 passed.  The one with no absences earned an A, the one with 1 absence earned a B, and the one with 2 absences earned a C.  Everybody else missed more than 2 of the lab sessions, with some missing 5 or more.  It's possible to miss class once or twice and do OK, but you can't just not come to lab and expect to pass.  One student even wrote on my eval 'She did everything that she could to help us succeed...I should have come to class more.'  I never saw anything like that again, so it was just an unfortunate class.  I later taught a class that formed a weekly study group and those students did great.  So, I saw both extremes, mostly just based on who happened to take the class.

Another year a student came up to me on the first day of class and said 'I'm an A student, so I expect to earn an A in this class'.  I replied that it shouldn't be a problem, since usually around 1/4 to 1/3 of the students earned As.  This student earned a C.  Another year a group of students came to me and said 'We've talked, and we all agree that the math shouldn't be required.  It's too confusing...'.  This was a lab, and I didn't control content.  Another year a students raised their hand and said that they didn't seen any reason for having to learn the macromolecules in the lecture because it wasn't needed. 

All of these are just stories from individual students, but I could imagine getting a critical mass of these students in one class and it going sideways.  Depending on their background, the students may not have reasonable expectations of a college class.  In my current classes, I sometimes have students ask what page goes with question 3.  They'll say that they are confused without checking out the relevant lecture videos.  They are high schoolers, and my job is to teach these skills and expectations as much as it is to help them learn content.  But, I professors don't expect to do these sorts of things.  Friends who teach college classes say that over the past 5 or so years students are expecting more hand-holding than they've ever seen, in a way that isn't possible in large classes.  They don't seem to form groups with peers, and instead want individual help from faculty.  

[JennyD]

While 

1 hour ago, perky said:

I think a teacher's job is teaching and if most of the kids are failing, it's probably not them, it's you.

Quote

Dr. Jones, 84, is known for changing the way the subject is taught. In addition to writing the 1,300-page textbook “Organic Chemistry,” now in its fifth edition, he pioneered a new method of instruction that relied less on rote memorization and more on problem solving.

When I teach a class and most of the students don't get something, I do generally think it's probably my fault.  This guy, though?  I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and then some.

Quote

In interviews, several of them said that Dr. Jones was keen to help students who asked questions, but that he could also be sarcastic and downbeat about the class’s poor performance.

I have no doubt that an 84yo professor who has been teaching very successfully for decades and is now seeing a dramatic plunge in student effort and performance would be pretty grouchy about the situation.  But this is just an appalling way for the university to react.  

This reminds me a lot of that book that came out some years ago -- Paying for the Party -- in which the authors described the dynamic at a big mid-tier state school: the school urgently needed tuition dollars, so they needed to attract full-pay students, which they did by adding lots of amenities and offering easy majors that would allow wealthy students who just wanted a "fun college experience" to have lots of free time for Greek life, parties, etc.  

 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I don't see why it has to be an either/or.

It's possible that the students were not taking effective steps to learn the material AND that the professor was doing an inadequate job teaching the students in the room.

A teacher were was remarkable and groundbreaking in the past might not be effective in his current setting.

Students need to work hard in hard classes, but if they didn't learn how to study in high school (and many didn't) then that needs to be an overt part of the college curriculum.

I find it interesting that the students didn't ask for his contract not to be renewed, but that is the remedy NYU used. I also think it's possible that an 84 year old professor might not be on top of how his current students are accessing course materials through digital platforms. I've been frustrated with how many places I have to search through platforms like Canvas to find readings, videos, syllabus, and assignments. Standardization within a university, through the use of instructional design professionals would be really helpful.

It once took my son over 2 hours on the phone with customer service, just to properly gain access to the digital textbook and homework portal for chemistry. It's not just a matter of getting the one text from the bookstore and reading it while taking notes.

[Farrar]

I had a similar reaction to @Sebastian (a lady) above. I saw a lot of people bemoaning the state of American youth and the capitulations of universities in response to this article. But I was struck with how unusual their action was in firing him. I think there must be more to it. I suspect there was something behind the scenes. Maybe something a bit inappropriate in one of those things he said to the students, but more likely, maybe the department has been frustrated with him for some totally other reason for awhile. I feels to me like this can't be the full story.