Looking for a sanity check on a high school curriculum

[JennyD]

My very STEM-minded oldest son took AP Physics 1 and 2 in 9th grade.  We did the class at home, using the Knight book and a slightly modified version of a syllabus that regentrude posted on this site some years ago.   He took the AP Physics 1 exam at the end and scored a 5.

He is doing calculus this year as a junior, and plans to take calculus-based physics as a senior -- probably AP E&M at home but maybe a university course if we can find one.

I thought the year we spent on AP Physics 1 and 2 was extremely worthwhile.  My son learned a lot -- including that he really likes physics! -- and preparing for and taking the exam at the end gave us the opportunity to work on some important study skills.

My second son is a rising 9th grader now; he is very interested in biology so that's what we are starting high school science with for him, with the expectation that he will get a second bite at the biology apple (either AP bio or some other higher-level biology course) later in high school. 

Edited August 11, 2022 by JennyD

[turkeypotpie]

It also looks like CB is revamping the C courses for the 2023+ school year. Found this draft: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/media/pdf/ap-physics-c-mechanics-physics-c-electricity-magnetism-2023-draft-curriculum-framework.pdf

At a glance they look to be aligning C better with the latest 2015 revamps of 1/2. Their recommendation is C:Mech as a full year course, or as a one-semester course with E&M followup if the student has already had a year of physics under their belt.

 

[turkeypotpie]

19 minutes ago, JennyD said:

My very STEM-minded oldest son took AP Physics 1 and 2 in 9th grade.  We did the class at home, using the Knight book and a slightly modified version of a syllabus that regentrude posted on this site some years ago.   He took the AP Physics 1 exam at the end and scored a 5.

He is doing calculus this year as a junior, and plans to take calculus-based physics as a senior -- probably AP E&M at home but maybe a university course if we can find one.

I thought the year we spent on AP Physics 1 and 2 was extremely worthwhile.  My son learned a lot -- including that he really likes physics! -- and preparing for and taking the exam at the end gave us the opportunity to work on some important study skills.

My second son is a rising 9th grader now; he is very interested in biology so that's what we are starting high school science with for him, with the expectation that he will get a second bite at the biology apple (either AP bio or some other higher-level biology course) later in high school. 

That's a good data point, thank you. Any particular reason he didn't also take the Physics 2 exam in 9th, or plan on taking C-Mechanics as senior? Personal preference for the E&M material?

[regentrude]

53 minutes ago, JennyD said:

My very STEM-minded oldest son took AP Physics 1 and 2 in 9th grade.  We did the class at home, using the Knight book and a slightly modified version of a syllabus that regentrude posted on this site some years ago.   He took the AP Physics 1 exam at the end and scored a 5.

He is doing calculus this year as a junior, and plans to take calculus-based physics as a senior -- probably AP E&M at home but maybe a university course if we can find one.

My DD physics twice, too, because she took the algebra based course extremely early and because she was really into physics and wanted to take university classes. 
She took algebra based College Physics 1+2 (the equivalent of AP 1&2) in 9th grade,  calculus based Engineering Physics 1+2 in 11th grade, and Modern Physics (which has Eng Phys 2 as a prerequisite) in 12th grade.

OTOH, DS who also took College Physics 1+2 in 9th chose not to take calc based physics while in highschool and instead opted to take Introduction to Astronomy at the university for his 12th grade science. He credits this course and the instructor for kindling his passion for physics and his ultimate switch of major. 

Edited August 11, 2022 by regentrude

[Clemsondana]

I guess I'm just struggling to understand why all of this needs to be sorted out right now.  I like a plan and a checklist as much as anybody, and I definitely do some planning to make sure that I accommodate all classes that my kid needs (the sequence of math, making sure that we don't forget about that required semesters of health and government).  But, for classes with options, I don't usually plan more than a year at a time.  I have an outline, but it's very loose.  Each year we look at kid's interests and what will help kid develop in that direction.  We may try to balance the number of high output and low output classes, or the number of difficult classes with the number of box-checking classes, or balancing a time-consuming extracurricular with coursework, or asynchronous vs in person, or schedule some classes to be done with friends, or whatever other characteristics we decide are important.    

I want an academically rigorous program, and if a class easily fits with getting some college credits earned at the same time, whether through AP or DE, then that's great.  But, my first priority is figuring out what classes will help my kid in the current year.  I most likely have  a STEM kid who is planning to do the calculus BC exam this year as a junior, and I'm still not committed on what senior year science will be.  It's likely to be DE physics, but...will kid go ahead and do both semesters?  Do one as a senior and the other as a college student?  We'll probably figure it out next summer.  Kid may decide to finish physics and get it out of the way so that kid can move on to take circuits as a freshman.  Kid may decide to only take the first semester because they are doing a big research project.  Kid may finagle an internship-like job and take fewer classes.  Kid may be burnt out and want a lighter load. Kid may decide to take a class over the summer.  I have no idea.  And it will be OK to wait to figure it out, since there is nothing to be done about it right now.  

[lewelma]

3 hours ago, regentrude said:

To me it is absolutely not obvious why a student heading for a STEM major should be taking AP C during high school. Yes, officially it does give credit but that does not mean the AP C is actually equivalent to the university course. The student may be much better served taking AP 1&2 and then, with this excellent preparation, taking the calculus based physics at university. It is often the richer experience with stronger problem solving focus and lab experiences - and calculus as a prerequisite means  a lot deeper problem solving is possible. (Actually E&M should have calc 3 as a prereq; unfortunately, schools won't require that because time-to-graduation would be affected, which causes a lot of issues and watering down of the courses)

My older boy took algebra based physics in highschool even though he took calculus in 9th grade (I'm not in the USA so not with any AP test. In NZ the national exam is algebra based) . Like Jenny, we used Knights College Physics with Regentrude's schedule. It was excellent, and we enjoyed it a lot. However, this meant that he did not get credit at MIT for physics and had to take physics with calculus his freshman year. He took their honors sequence that they recommend for physics majors, even for the ones that took the calculus based version in highschool.

Pros: He found this repetition to be excellent for his deeper understanding, and he felt that it served him well for all of his classes moving forward. His foundation was rock solid. 

Cons: The physics sequence was delayed a year compared to if he had skipped right into sophomore physics classes (the courses cascade as was mentioned earlier). This meant he had less exposure to topics by the time he had to pick an area of speciality to apply to grad school. And it meant that it was harder to take grad level classes in physics which apparently top grad schools like to see. 

So definitely pros and cons for the choice, depending on your long term goals. 

Edited August 11, 2022 by lewelma

[turkeypotpie]

40 minutes ago, Clemsondana said:

I guess I'm just struggling to understand why all of this needs to be sorted out right now.  I like a plan and a checklist as much as anybody, and I definitely do some planning to make sure that I accommodate all classes that my kid needs (the sequence of math, making sure that we don't forget about that required semesters of health and government).  But, for classes with options, I don't usually plan more than a year at a time.  I have an outline, but it's very loose.  Each year we look at kid's interests and what will help kid develop in that direction.  We may try to balance the number of high output and low output classes, or the number of difficult classes with the number of box-checking classes, or balancing a time-consuming extracurricular with coursework, or asynchronous vs in person, or schedule some classes to be done with friends, or whatever other characteristics we decide are important.    

I want an academically rigorous program, and if a class easily fits with getting some college credits earned at the same time, whether through AP or DE, then that's great.  But, my first priority is figuring out what classes will help my kid in the current year.  I most likely have  a STEM kid who is planning to do the calculus BC exam this year as a junior, and I'm still not committed on what senior year science will be.  It's likely to be DE physics, but...will kid go ahead and do both semesters?  Do one as a senior and the other as a college student?  We'll probably figure it out next summer.  Kid may decide to finish physics and get it out of the way so that kid can move on to take circuits as a freshman.  Kid may decide to only take the first semester because they are doing a big research project.  Kid may finagle an internship-like job and take fewer classes.  Kid may be burnt out and want a lighter load. Kid may decide to take a class over the summer.  I have no idea.  And it will be OK to wait to figure it out, since there is nothing to be done about it right now.  

I know it looks like I'm a basket case trying to lock down some of these details, but I find it helpful with our timing. We're not planning on outsourcing anything for now. We're just starting 10th grade, so we know exactly what we're teaching, our materials are set, our calendars are made, etc. It lightens our cognitive load and we can just nip and tuck our daily and weekly schedules as we go along through our courses. For 11th (and beyond), having that semi-solid plan means we have our whole year to lay down more and more familiarity with the material we'll be teaching on the side, gives us time to cross-shop texts and enrichment stuff, and just cuts down the stress of trying to learn a subject right before teaching or facilitating it. I don't have degrees in any of these topics and absolutely zero background in some, so I need to really hustle so I can be a decent tutor across several advanced subjects by the time the year starts. The walk through the pros and cons really help, and reading and hearing the various opinions and pieces of advice on this board has been incredibly helpful. Changing out one class for another can affect how we teach a different one, if some benefit might come from combining some of their content on some way. 

Absolutely our plans can blow up in our faces with family needs, learning issues, schedule conflicts, or changing desires and directions, etc., but it has paid off to at least have a good outline to build on. The time levy to prep is looking more intensive as we go if we follow a curriculum similar to the one in my original post. This physics decision will reflect what math we teach and how, and if we need to branch out to father high schools to find even IF they can offer C-level exams. By no means are we set in stone or anything for Junior year for a good long time, but we just started looking to build out these schedules because we just entered our next planning phase with our current classes now in action.

Edited August 11, 2022 by turkeypotpie

[regentrude]

34 minutes ago, lewelma said:

My older boy took algebra based physics in highschool even though he took calculus in 9th grade (I'm not in the USA so not with any AP test. In NZ the national exam is algebra based) . Like Jenny, we used Knights College Physics with Regentrude's schedule. It was excellent, and we enjoyed it a lot. However, this meant that he did not get credit at MIT for physics and had to take physics with calculus his freshman year. He took their honors sequence that they recommend for physics majors, even for the ones that took the calculus based version in highschool.

On the bolded:
DD had taken calc based physics1+2  at a university in 11th grade. The credit didn't transfer to U Chicago, but it allowed her to place in their honors section of Physics 1. That level was miles above the standard Young&Freedman or Halliday/Resnick. They used Klepner/Kolenkow and solved some really wickedly hard problems, so much more advanced than the regular sections. So worth it, and not at all a "repeat". Not transferring the credit meant she learned a ton more. Which is the ultimate goal, at least for us.

Edited August 11, 2022 by regentrude

[lewelma]

17 minutes ago, regentrude said:

On the bolded:
DD had taken calc based physics1+2  at a university in 11th grade. The credit didn't transfer to U Chicago, but it allowed her to place in their honors section of Physics 1. That level was miles above the standard Young&Freedman or Halliday/Resnick. They used Klepner/Kolenkow and solved some really wickedly hard problems, so much more advanced than the regular sections. So worth it, and not at all a "repeat". Not transferring the credit meant she learned a ton more. Which is the ultimate goal, at least for us.

Agreed. The honors sequence he took was at a very high level apparently. He just told me last week that the preparation document given out for Cornell's PhD Qualifying exam lists the textbooks that he used in his freshman classes. Apparently are second year books. 

Doing algebra based physics in highschool and then this calculus based honors sequence was very very good for his deep understanding of the field. 

Do most schools offer an honors based freshman sequence?

[regentrude]

9 minutes ago, lewelma said:

Do most schools offer an honors based freshman sequence?

I am not aware of it, at least not one at that level. 

Often "honors" means a little more material or an extra project,  but I don't believe most schools would have enough of that caliber student.

We're also using DD's honors text for graduate qualifying exams,  and the grad students struggle.

[lewelma]

37 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Not transferring the credit meant she learned a ton more. Which is the ultimate goal, at least for us.

Just wanted to highlight this and agree. Sometimes the goal is to just place out because it is a box ticking exercise your student doesn't care about. But hopefully more often the goal is the actual learning.

Sounds like completing calculus-based physics in highschool and grasping all the concepts at a deep level is not typical for most students. 

[JennyD]

3 hours ago, turkeypotpie said:

That's a good data point, thank you. Any particular reason he didn't also take the Physics 2 exam in 9th, or plan on taking C-Mechanics as senior? Personal preference for the E&M material?

There was no convenient way for him to take the Physics 2 exam.  This was during Covid and our public schools were still all virtual, and the CB didn't even finalize the exam format until midwinter.  After a lot of finagling DS wound up being able to take the Physics 1 exam through a local private school that was willing to host him online (I had to promise that he wouldn't try to switch to in-person) but they were not offering Physics 2 that year.

As for calc-based physics, we will see what senior year looks like.  He may wind up just taking one semester and no exam, or maybe he'll do both semesters and take the exam at the end.  Or maybe he will take something else at the university.  

[8filltheheart]

For a totally different option, you can get rid of AP environ this yr (like HG, it is one of the least "respected" APs. Unless she is driving the decision to take this course, it is an easy one to dump off her list.) You could have her do a solid alg based physics class this yr (not AP) to see if that might help steer her toward some sort interest. (DO's honors physics is great and not time consuming....it would be easy to fit in to her schedule plus a math if she doesn't currently have one scheduled.  I didn't see a math listed, but I'm tired and might have missed it.)
 

If she took alg physics this yr, she might decide she loves it.  That might help her think through possible majors.  If she doesn't like it at all, likewise, it might help her eliminate options and make worrying the entire physics C conversation moot.   

[turkeypotpie]

18 hours ago, 8filltheheart said:

For a totally different option, you can get rid of AP environ this yr (like HG, it is one of the least "respected" APs. Unless she is driving the decision to take this course, it is an easy one to dump off her list.) You could have her do a solid alg based physics class this yr (not AP) to see if that might help steer her toward some sort interest. (DO's honors physics is great and not time consuming....it would be easy to fit in to her schedule plus a math if she doesn't currently have one scheduled.  I didn't see a math listed, but I'm tired and might have missed it.)
 

If she took alg physics this yr, she might decide she loves it.  That might help her think through possible majors.  If she doesn't like it at all, likewise, it might help her eliminate options and make worrying the entire physics C conversation moot.   

After you posted the above, my spouse and I had a powwow to discuss the option and which way we were leaning. It's a fantastic choice, but DD is looking forward to APES and its light output/less rigor allows us to fit it into a science-heavy schedule for this year. 

 

As a going in plan, we're growing to like the concurrent physics C/calc BC option, and treating the C courses as full year tentatively. If they go well, E&M might only take a semester in 12th year. Credits would be maximally transferrable, and as several have pointed out she could simply leave those credits on the table instead of using them to accelerate in college if she is STEM path and preferred to take the full in-house progression in her school of choice to align with the degree program. Removes duplication from Physics1/2 since we know she's planning on calc anyway next year, and would still demonstrate functional calc rigor across a 2-year span.

Edited August 12, 2022 by turkeypotpie
simplified just to changes; didn't rewrite original post material

[Malam]

20 hours ago, regentrude said:

We're also using DD's honors text for graduate qualifying exams,  and the grad students struggle.

Which text is that? K&K, Morin, Purcell?

20 hours ago, lewelma said:

Doing algebra based physics in highschool and then this calculus based honors sequence was very very good for his deep understanding of the field

Do you think his understanding would have been deeper if his first course was calculus-based?

[8filltheheart]

31 minutes ago, Malam said:

 

Do you think his understanding would have been deeper if his first course was calculus-based?

It is hard to evaluate a path not taken.  

FWIW, my son's strength in physics came from his strong interest in the subject.  He purchased almost all of the GC physics and astronomy lectures.  He read books like Kip Thorne's Black Holes and Time Warps.  He had stacks of notebooks where he wrote down though experiments.  Yes, he took physics courses, but he had far more exposure to thinking about physics topics than high school and lower level U college courses cover. 

@turkeypotpie It doesn't really look like you changed much.  It still isn't an approach I would ever take, but you seem to like that sort of academic path and when it comes to homeschooling, doing what works for your family is more than 1/2 the battle.

[lewelma]

2 hours ago, Malam said:

Which text is that? K&K, Morin, Purcell?

Do you think his understanding would have been deeper if his first course was calculus-based?

My guess is no, mostly because we could work together on algebra based physics, and there was no way I was going to try to do that with calculus based physics. So the collaboration, the kicking around of ideas, the deep dives into the understanding that were done as a team is what made physics so fun for him. He did algebra based physics over 3 years, so the concepts were not just learned for a test and forgotten. He did deep dives into areas he was interested in. He studied how he wanted, when he wanted, and what he wanted. And had a blast. He walked into the honors section his freshman year, which is basically 2nd year content, and earned an A+ even though he had no foundation in calculus based physics. Basically, he already had the concepts, and tacking the math on top was easy.

So I would say that although he did algebra based physics, he did not do it with a traditional drill and kill method or in a 9 month period. He luxuriated. And that is what made the difference.  

Edited August 12, 2022 by lewelma

[Malam]

5 hours ago, lewelma said:

He did algebra based physics over 3 years, so the concepts were not just learned for a test and forgotten. He did deep dives into areas he was interested in. He studied how he wanted, when he wanted, and what he wanted.

So was this a standard curriculum order, but stretched over 3 years (which grade to which grade?), or did you revisit certain topics over time with multiple passes?

[lewelma]

1 hour ago, Malam said:

So was this a standard curriculum order, but stretched over 3 years (which grade to which grade?), or did you revisit certain topics over time with multiple passes?

We used Knight's College Physics and did it cover to cover. He read the entire book and it is 1000 pages long. My son did the problems listed on Regentrude's syllabus. Then he did deep dives into anything that interested him. We did not do multiple passes because he learned it deeply the first time through. He did it 9th to 11th grade. Keep in mind that this was colearning. I was *definitely* not teaching this kid physics.

So for example, we did one lab where we collected data on all kinds of pendulums, graphed them, and discussed different types of error. The final experiment was supposed to be a broken pendulum. We connected a weight to the top of a door frame and then put a ruler across the door, so that the motion was broken in the middle of the path. The problem was that we used a flexible metal ruler, which acted like a spring and stored energy which it released back into the pendulum motion. My son didn't want to redo it with a stiff ruler to make it easier to analyze, instead he did a ton of research on how the spring potential energy would impact the motion of the pendulum and thus explain how his data deviated from expected. He then modelled it mathematically. LOL.

This project took like 4 weeks and just about did my head in.  But it represents what happens when you learn for the sake of learning rather than trying to keep to a schedule and just memorize your way through. 

Edited August 13, 2022 by lewelma

[Frances]

On 8/11/2022 at 1:21 PM, lewelma said:

Agreed. The honors sequence he took was at a very high level apparently. He just told me last week that the preparation document given out for Cornell's PhD Qualifying exam lists the textbooks that he used in his freshman classes. Apparently are second year books. 

Doing algebra based physics in highschool and then this calculus based honors sequence was very very good for his deep understanding of the field. 

Do most schools offer an honors based freshman sequence?

Our state schools here definitely do for calculus, physics, biology, and chemistry. One of my son’s friends who was a very strong student and went in to earn a PharmD took honors chemistry her first term of college and really struggled. To even be admitted to the course, students had to have AP Chem, AP Physics, and AP Calc or the equivalent in high school. My son had already taken college chemistry in high school, so he started with honors organic chemistry. It was much different than the regular large lecture course, especially the labs. By the third quarter they were designing some of their own experiments. He enjoyed it so much that the next year he took an advanced orgo course from the same prof. And he loved the honors Bio sequence he took later. Since a year of general chemistry, regular or honors, was a prerequisite, most students weren’t taking it as freshman. The honors courses at his university were known to be much more rigorous and cover more material in more depth. But they were also much smaller, more like LAC size classes with as few as 5 students in labs, and often more interesting. By taking all departmental honors classes for his intro STEM courses, all honors college classes for his distribution requirements, and only upper level courses outside of his major, he never actually had any large lecture classes during his entire tenure at a relatively large state university. Most of his classes had 15 or fewer students.

[lewelma]

3 hours ago, Frances said:

 And he loved the honors Bio sequence he took later. Since a year of general chemistry, regular or honors, was a prerequisite, most students weren’t taking it as freshman.

My son's university didn't have strict prereqs, just guidelines. Students were allowed to self select and just seek permission from the instructor. I get the impression that this is unusual. 

[Frances]

6 hours ago, lewelma said:

My son's university didn't have strict prereqs, just guidelines. Students were allowed to self select and just seek permission from the instructor. I get the impression that this is unusual. 

I think it varied at my son’s university. I think they were strict about prerequisites for lower level courses. But I know he took upper level bio, chemistry, and economics classes without all of the prerequisites.

Edited August 13, 2022 by Frances

[8filltheheart]

I think that things are more flexible than most students are aware. My ds was able to skip some pre-reqs by just talking to the prof. 

[Malam]

On 8/12/2022 at 10:07 PM, lewelma said:

We used Knight's College Physics and did it cover to cover. He read the entire book and it is 1000 pages long. My son did the problems listed on Regentrude's syllabus. Then he did deep dives into anything that interested him. We did not do multiple passes because he learned it deeply the first time through. He did it 9th to 11th grade. Keep in mind that this was colearning. I was *definitely* not teaching this kid physics.

So for example, we did one lab where we collected data on all kinds of pendulums, graphed them, and discussed different types of error. The final experiment was supposed to be a broken pendulum. We connected a weight to the top of a door frame and then put a ruler across the door, so that the motion was broken in the middle of the path. The problem was that we used a flexible metal ruler, which acted like a spring and stored energy which it released back into the pendulum motion. My son didn't want to redo it with a stiff ruler to make it easier to analyze, instead he did a ton of research on how the spring potential energy would impact the motion of the pendulum and thus explain how his data deviated from expected. He then modelled it mathematically. LOL.

This project took like 4 weeks and just about did my head in.  But it represents what happens when you learn for the sake of learning rather than trying to keep to a schedule and just memorize your way through. 

Thanks for explaining!

When did you realize his physics journey was going to be much of thorough than typical? Did he do any other sciences during those three years? How did you denote 3 years of physics on his transcript? (Physics 1, 2, and 3?)

Did you find a broken pendulum lab to do or was it more exploratory?

Edited August 14, 2022 by Malam

[lewelma]

My son has always said he wanted to be a physicist. So he started reading physics books as a kid at 9. So I knew pretty early. By high school he was reading Scientific American cover to cover. 

He did Chemistry over 2 years - 10th and 11th. He did organic chemistry (1/2 year) and Biology (full year) in 12th grade. 

On the transcript I put physics in 10th grade, Chemistry in 11th, and Bio in 12th.  I had a statement on my transcript that said something like "courses are listed in the year that the majority of the work was done" which gave me a lot of flexibility to make it look 'schooly'.

Homeschool does not have to look like school. And ours certainly didn't. My son' daily schedule:

10-12am English and Science organized by me and often done with me (especially english)

12-to whenever he wanted to finish - some combination of math and music organized and directed by him (sometimes he finished at 4, sometimes at 6)

9pm-1am reading anything he wanted (he got through a LOT of classics and the economist, scientific american, and national geographic.) And if he just wanted to sit and think, that was OK too. There were just no electronics and and the rest of us were asleep.

We didn't really have set classes or syllabus or schedules. We just did a lot of learning.

We had a pendulum lab we were following. I will see if I can dig it up.

 

 

Edited August 14, 2022 by lewelma

[Malam]

20 hours ago, lewelma said:

So he started reading physics books as a kid at 9.

What kinds of physics books did he read? Were these books you had in your house, or books he found at the library?

[lewelma]

He started with The Way Things Work. Read it cover to cover in 4th grade, one spread per day. After that, it was library books. 

[8filltheheart]

3 hours ago, lewelma said:

He started with The Way Things Work. Read it cover to cover in 4th grade, one spread per day. After that, it was library books. 

I love your response.  Just reading books that expose them to ideas.  It isn't about a physics textbook spoon feeding them physics.  Ds read books like that, books on quarks, neutrons, etc.  (IIRc there was a series called something like the Library of Subatomic Particles.)  He read all kids of things, watched documentaries, etc.  He just loved physics.