Plaid Dad, I just noticed your Living Memory (K-12) workbook---

[Michelle in MO]

and thought I'd post my questions here about how it works. I'll also post on the High School boards, because I know you check out both spots---just in case I miss you here! ;) The link for the Living Memory Workbook is here, for any others who might be interested.

 

The description mentions ancient memorization techniques. Can you give us a brief description of what those are? Are any of these techniques used today, only rephrased in different terms? For instance, some of the techniques from the progymnasmata are still used today, but are given more modern terminology. (The authors of Classical Writing give some great examples on their website on modern-day examples of the progym.)

 

How much time would the memory work take, on a daily basis? We memorized poetry daily for years, and generally spent only about 10 minutes doing so. This gave us great dividends, though, because the girls were easily able to memorize one poem a month, and so they were able to have at least 10 poems memorized within a year.

 

Is music used as a memory aid, like is used in some other programs? Without giving out too many "spoilers", what are the skills taught to help in memory training?

 

This really looks like a great resource, and the fact that you are incorporating speeches from Cicero and Churchill is a big plus! (As an aside, my dh listened to TCC's "Churchill", taught by Prof. Rufus Fears, and really enjoyed that series. I did not know that Churchill used to have great trouble with public speaking and eventually overcame those problems!) Actually---that leads to another question: is there any evidence that memory work for children, such as memorizing poems, hymns, proverbs, speeches, etc., can help them learn to become better public speakers? Memoria was one of the key building blocks of classical methodology, and it was employed in teaching oratory, wasn't it? Can you explain the connection? How does a child learn to memorize and yet not sound "stiff"? I'm assuming that memorization is intended as a springboard for greater freedom in public speaking. Does that question make sense?

 

Anyway, when you have time, can you post an answer to these questions? Thanks in advance!

 

ETA: A couple of additional questions: is the oral (non-musical) memory work in both English and Latin? In other words, will the student be learning Cicero's speeches in Latin or English? Also, is there a step-by-step progression introduced for memory work, depending upon the student's age/grade/ability?

 

Thanks again!

Edited December 14, 2008 by Michelle in MO
additional thoughts

[Plaid Dad]

The description mentions ancient memorization techniques. Can you give us a brief description of what those are?

 

Sure. I talk a bit about the ancient technique of loci and give an example of how it can be used with modern material (the presidents). This method has gained a bit of currency among Catholic homeschoolers since the publication of Memorize the Faith. I'm really excited that this ancient method is gaining new life!

 

How much time would the memory work take, on a daily basis?

 

I would say no more than 15 minutes, although you could do multiple memory work sessions - one in the morning, say, and one in the afternoon. There's a limit to how much the brain can take in at one time, so longer is definitely not better when it comes to memorization.

 

Is music used as a memory aid, like is used in some other programs? Without giving out too many "spoilers", what are the skills taught to help in memory training?

 

I do mention when poems or other material can be memorized with a well-known song, and there are a lot of hymns, carols, and other songs in the book. But I don't use music as the primary memorization method. My understanding is that the language and music centers of the brain are different, so you want to be exercising the correct one for the material you're learning.

 

I'm assuming that memorization is intended as a springboard for greater freedom in public speaking. Does that question make sense?

 

Absolutely. In my experience, beginners sound stiff because they are still struggling to get the words out in the right order. Beyond simple memorization is delivery, which, as Cicero points out, is akin to acting. That's the most advanced application of memory work. The selections for older students include a lot of political/historical oratory and drama so that they can practice delivering a piece with feeling and gesture. I was interested to find that the Jesuits used a lot of drama in their schools as a way of getting students used to speaking well.

 

A couple of additional questions: is the oral (non-musical) memory work in both English and Latin?

 

Yes, and Greek as well. :) That's one of the things that makes this book different from other memory programs and books. There are a few translated classical pieces in the World History chapter, and I provide English translations of all the pieces in the Latin and Greek chapters, so parents have a choice about how to use them. You can't really recite a piece correctly unless you understand the content thoroughly, so I envision students working through the Latin and Greek selections for understanding before memorizing them. In that way, the book can be a supplement to one's classical language programs.

 

 

Also, is there a step-by-step progression introduced for memory work, depending upon the student's age/grade/ability?

 

The chapters are all arranged from easiest to most difficult (roughly!), with subsections for different types of memory work, so younger students would start at the beginning of each chapter and work through the material over the years. I also emphasize the importance of teaching fact lists in the context of the whole curriculum, not in a vacuum. So students would learn, say, the Kings of Rome while they were studying Famous Men of Rome or a similar book, in whatever grade that might be.

 

Hope that helps!

[Michelle in MO]

Sure. I talk a bit about the ancient technique of loci and give an example of how it can be used with modern material (the presidents). This method has gained a bit of currency among Catholic homeschoolers since the publication of Memorize the Faith. I'm really excited that this ancient method is gaining new life!

 

Just read the link you gave on loci. I think I've seen some more modern books which teach memorization using other "tags" for memory, but not using loci, or places. (I wonder if this would work to help me better memorize the hic, haec, hoc paradigm? :tongue_smilie: )

 

 

There's a limit to how much the brain can take in at one time, so longer is definitely not better when it comes to memorization.

 

ITA---shorter periods of memorization, broken up throughout the day, are much more effective than one long push. With some success my girls try to do the same, as much as their time allows.

 

Absolutely. In my experience, beginners sound stiff because they are still struggling to get the words out in the right order. Beyond simple memorization is delivery, which, as Cicero points out, is akin to acting. That's the most advanced application of memory work. The selections for older students include a lot of political/historical oratory and drama so that they can practice delivering a piece with feeling and gesture. I was interested to find that the Jesuits used a lot of drama in their schools as a way of getting students used to speaking well.

 

I had heard that about the Jesuits before, but I think now I can understand this connection with classical methodology. Another question here: do younger students get a little practice with delivery as well? I would imagine, of course, that their selections would be much shorter, but does the book include some tips for parents to assist the younger kids with delivery? My youngest is in 6th grade, which I know is upper grammar-level stage, but has to periodically do short presentations for her class. Something like this might help her considerably, as well as help me to help her prepare.

 

I found when I had to do oral presentations in the past that an emphasis on memory helped me get past the natural inhibitions that most people suffer when having to speak in public.

 

Yes, and Greek as well. :) That's one of the things that makes this book different from other memory programs and books. There are a few translated classical pieces in the World History chapter, and I provide English translations of all the pieces in the Latin and Greek chapters, so parents have a choice about how to use them. You can't really recite a piece correctly unless you understand the content thoroughly, so I envision students working through the Latin and Greek selections for understanding before memorizing them. In that way, the book can be a supplement to one's classical language programs.

 

Excellent!

 

The chapters are all arranged from easiest to most difficult (roughly!), with subsections for different types of memory work, so younger students would start at the beginning of each chapter and work through the material over the years. I also emphasize the importance of teaching fact lists in the context of the whole curriculum, not in a vacuum. So students would learn, say, the Kings of Rome while they were studying Famous Men of Rome or a similar book, in whatever grade that might be.

 

Hope that helps!

 

Yes, it does indeed. The arrangement (there's another great classical word) sounds great. I'm looking forward to getting this resource!

 

Thanks for the thorough answers to all my questions! :)

[Plaid Dad]

Another question here: do younger students get a little practice with delivery as well?

 

It's not something I address specifically, but there are certainly poetry selections appropriate for the middle grades that would lend themselves to more dramatic delivery. The best way, I would think, would be for the parent to model a delivery with good inflection. There are some good recordings of speeches and, of course, of Shakespeare, and those would make excellent models. Little kids mostly need to be trained to stand still and tall and to speak slowly and distinctly - that's challenge enough, bless them! :D

[Michelle in MO]

It's not something I address specifically, but there are certainly poetry selections appropriate for the middle grades that would lend themselves to more dramatic delivery. The best way, I would think, would be for the parent to model a delivery with good inflection. There are some good recordings of speeches and, of course, of Shakespeare, and those would make excellent models. Little kids mostly need to be trained to stand still and tall and to speak slowly and distinctly - that's challenge enough, bless them! :D

 

That public speaking ability can take years, for some. Some kids are "naturals", like my middle daughter, but for some learning to just stand still and not fidget too much is an accomplishment in itself!

 

Thanks again---I'm looking forward to getting this book!

 

ETA: Just placed my order! It looks like a beautiful book. I don't know how you find the time to write, but I'm glad you do. :)

Edited December 14, 2008 by Michelle in MO

[Karenciavo]

Drew, you know what I would love, and I wonder if you even know anything about the subject. I would love a recitation/elocution course that instructions the students about inflection. A program that teaches students when to use monotone, rising and falling inflection, and circumflex. Where to place accent and emphasis, pitch and modulation, etc. Training in how to to mark up works to be recited would be nice too, and audio would be a dream. Do you know where I could find such a thing?

[Michelle in MO]

Drew, you know what I would love, and I wonder if you even know anything about the subject. I would love a recitation/elocution course that instructions the students about inflection. A program that teaches students when to use monotone, rising and falling inflection, and circumflex. Where to place accent and emphasis, pitch and modulation, etc. Training in how to to mark up works to be recited would be nice too, and audio would be a dream. Do you know where I could find such a thing?

 

I believe this was an important aspect of classical instruction, wasn't it?

[Plaid Dad]

I don't, but I just wrote to the drama teacher at our school to ask. He's had both theater and homiletics training (he's a deacon), so I would bet he'd know if anyone would. I'll let you know what he says. :)

[Plaid Dad]

Drew, How is the book set up? By type of memory work, chronologically????

 

By subject, and within subject, by difficulty. :)

[Sahamamama]

Drew, you know what I would love, and I wonder if you even know anything about the subject. I would love a recitation/elocution course that instructions the students about inflection. A program that teaches students when to use monotone, rising and falling inflection, and circumflex. Where to place accent and emphasis, pitch and modulation, etc. Training in how to to mark up works to be recited would be nice too, and audio would be a dream. Do you know where I could find such a thing?

 

Is this the sort of course you had in mind, Karen?

 

http://www.currclick.com/product_info.php?cPath=46_871&products_id=21185&affiliate_id=23466

 

HTH.

[Plaid Dad]

I found some interesting articles and old books on elocution that might be of help.

 

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=L1gCAAAAYAAJ

 

http://www.assumption.edu/ahc/rhetoric/oratorybooks.html

 

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=moa;idno=AJD1102.0001.001

 

(The last one has been reprinted and can be bought at Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Lessons-elocution-Michigan-Historical-Reprint/dp/1425522858/)

 

http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/16751

 

This last one is McGuffey's Sixth Eclectic reader. If you download the PDF, you can see examples of elocution lessons. (The plain text version doesn't show you the italics and illustrations.)

 

Enjoy!

[Karenciavo]

Is this the sort of course you had in mind, Karen?

 

http://www.currclick.com/product_info.php?cPath=46_871&products_id=21185&affiliate_id=23466

 

HTH.

 

Not really what I had in mind, but thank you for posting. I have a portion of an old book ©1841 titled "The Rhetorical Reader; Consisting of Instructions for Regulating the Voice, and with Notation, Illustrating Inflection, Emphasis and Modulation; and a Course of Rhetorical Exercises" (man, I love those old descriptive titles :D) Anyway there are rules listed in the book, followed by exercises. I don't know if the rules are arbitrary or standard rules of rhetoric. Students study the rules, e.g.:

 

Rule III - When negation is opposed to affirmation, the former has the rising, and the latter the falling inflection.

 

Then they diagram sentences:

 

 

I'll probably purchase a complete copy of this old book one day, but I would love to find something my children could use more easily.

[Karenciavo]

 

Enjoy!

 

Thank you Drew. Sorry for

[Plaid Dad]

You never need to apologize for giving me an excuse to mess around with Google Books! :D

[Plaid Dad]

Karen,

 

Here's what I heard back from our drama teacher:

 

 

 

Hmmmmm. Such courses were, I believe quite popular in the 1800's. I am not even sure if some of the more respectable schools of theater even go the route of elocution any more. [...] The parent might want to consider on-line searches. I work on diction and enunciation even for lectors but elocution delves more into a refined way of talking with others. Even the upper crust of our society disregards such niceties in this day and age. More the pity. It speaks of general disrespect for dignity of any human being, but I digress...

 

 

So it sounds like we really do have to rely on Google Books for now. The Rhetorical Reader is there, I just discovered!

Edited December 15, 2008 by Plaid Dad
addition

[Sahamamama]

Karen,

 

I know you're in NJ, as I am, so I'm looking around here for something -- ?????? -- you could plug your boys into... like an elocution class? LOL. In this case meaning "Lots of Luck!"

 

http://www.communication-skills.info/elocution-lessons.shtml

 

I do have two friends who are members of Toastmasters.

 

http://www.toastmasters.org/MainMenuCategories/WhatisToastmasters.aspx

 

Probably also NOT what you had in mind, but I just want to let you know it's out there, for when your boys are older. One of my friends is a psychotherapist (counselor), and is often called on to make public presentations or to teach at workshops. The other (her twin sister!) is a speech therapist, and also teaches and speaks publicly. They both recommend Toastmasters as a way to improve public speaking by gaining practice, learning by example, and getting constructive feedback from others. HTH.

 

Also, I was thinking that since people these days seem to do mostly "silent reading," this might partially explain why we read so poorly when we do read aloud. Practice reading aloud. HTH.

 

Beth in NJ

Edited December 15, 2008 by Sahamamama

[Karenciavo]

Karen,

 

I know you're in NJ, as I am, so I'm looking around here for something -- ?????? -- you could plug your boys into... like an elocution class? LOL. In this case meaning "Lots of Luck!"

 

My oldest just joined a Junior Statesmen of America group in Burlington County. I've debated joining the CC group up in New Brunswick (or somewhere up there), but the drive doesn't thrill me.

[Karenciavo]

Karen,

 

Here's what I heard back from our drama teacher:

 

 

Hmmmmm. Such courses were, I believe quite popular in the 1800's. I am not even sure if some of the more respectable schools of theater even go the route of elocution any more. [...] The parent might want to consider on-line searches. I work on diction and enunciation even for lectors but elocution delves more into a refined way of talking with others. Even the upper crust of our society disregards such niceties in this day and age. More the pity. It speaks of general disrespect for dignity of any human being, but I digress...

So it sounds like we really do have to rely on Google Books for now. The Rhetorical Reader is there, I just discovered!

 

Thank you for all your efforts!

[laughing lioness]

Can't wait to delve into your book, Drew - it looks terrific.

Karenciavo, I just wanted to say that the best training for elocution that I have seen is drama. We do a spring drama camp and participate in a One Act Play Festival each winter. Good drama is made up of highs/lows and fasts/slows. For those students who have particpated for a couple of years now, I am no longer emphasizing the memory work becasue they are doing it on their own, quickly, with the anticipation of getting to the "fun stuff" - which is the articulation/ ennunciation, pitch, emphasis, etc. They are beginning to coach each other:)

[Karenciavo]

Karenciavo, I just wanted to say that the best training for elocution that I have seen is drama. We do a spring drama camp and participate in a One Act Play Festival each winter. Good drama is made up of highs/lows and fasts/slows. For those students who have particpated for a couple of years now, I am no longer emphasizing the memory work becasue they are doing it on their own, quickly, with the anticipation of getting to the "fun stuff" - which is the articulation/ ennunciation, pitch, emphasis, etc. They are beginning to coach each other:)

 

Thank you. I agree, my older two are trying out for a play next month. I am drawn to systematic study and diagramming so something more organized than drama is attractive to me, my son's would probably disagree :D, but the drama coach in our homeschool group is very good. She has a degree in drama (or something like that) and I'm sure they will learn much if they get a part.

[laughing lioness]

I am drawn to systematic study and diagramming.

When you find something like this, please post!:)

[mo2]

Plaid Dad, how much of this book is taken up by memory work from the Bible? I'm assuming there is plenty of other material for those who choose to skip the religious aspects?

[SonshineLearner]

I'm pretty sure that there will be groups that start using this workbook, in a cycle type way, with their students.

When this starts happening, let's start to post here, hopefully in the same thread...to share information.

I can see groups really using this to have that positive peer pressure to learn all of this important information.

Also, are there already LCC co-ops that I don't know about? I'm interested in hearing any information about co-ops that are structured, using LCC.

 

Thanks!

Carrie:-)

[Plaid Dad]

Plaid Dad, how much of this book is taken up by memory work from the Bible? I'm assuming there is plenty of other material for those who choose to skip the religious aspects?

 

There is. The Religion chapter is long because it includes a lot of hymns, but I made sure that the Latin, Greek, and Literature chapters had significant amounts of secular material.

[SonshineLearner]

So for those that are Protestant in their beliefs, I'll ask, Is there a Catholic slant in the religious part? I'm assuming yes, and I've already ordered it....so....but I'm still wondering. I'm not sure if you'll get more...or less questions...when we start getting the books...

 

Carrie:-)

[Plaid Dad]

Most of the Catholic prayers are in the Latin section. The Religion section mostly focuses on the Bible, some widely known prayers, and hymns (many by Wesley, Watts, etc.). I tried to be as balanced as possible in the Religion section since I know readers, even Christians, will have a variety of needs there. When something is specifically Catholic (or Orthodox), I mention that in the notes and try to give some historical and theological context for it. HTH!

[PollyOR]

Drew, I was so excited to see this thread updated and that the book is available. I had fun ordering myself a Christmas present last night. ;)

[SonshineLearner]

Hi PollyOR:-)

 

I can't remember where you live...I'm outside of Salem....I think you're pretty far, right? Otherwise we could all have a Memory Work Party:-)

Carrie:-)

[SonshineLearner]

I just received an email saying that my book is on it's way! I'm SO excited......

Carrie:-)

[Snickerdoodle]

:) I'm so happy to purchase this!

[St. Theophan Academy]

mine too - hoping it will be here tomorrow - I paid more in shipping to avoid the media mail delay - so it better be here before the weekend! ;) Oh, and I am so wanting one of those LCC groupie shirts - someone needs to get creative and design one - I would buy it :)

[ElizabethB]

Drew, you know what I would love, and I wonder if you even know anything about the subject. I would love a recitation/elocution course that instructions the students about inflection. A program that teaches students when to use monotone, rising and falling inflection, and circumflex. Where to place accent and emphasis, pitch and modulation, etc. Training in how to to mark up works to be recited would be nice too, and audio would be a dream. Do you know where I could find such a thing?

 

The Parker Readers at Google have some good elocution exercises and explanations, as well. Also, many other older readers have elocution in them. I'd do an advanced search at Google Books for elocution in the period of 1800 to 1910.

 

I have links to the Parker Readers at Google on my Webster page, scroll down to the bottom.

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/webstersway.html