Sequence of Science Courses: which would you choose?

[pehp]

I come from the era of Bio-Chem-Physics, in that order, but I'm seeing more and more schools offering these courses in the reverse order: Physics (concurrent with Alg 1, typically)-Chem-Bio.  My son is looking at Wilson Hill Academy for next year and they seem to follow the latter sequence. I see the point of it (there's *so much* chemistry in bio, and so much physics in chem!), but my Class of '95 Public School Brain really struggles with the flip-flop.  On the one hand, I sign him up for Physics next year. On the other, Biology.  Since physics was a class for 12th graders or college kids in my era, I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around my 15-year-old taking it.

Do you believe that the sequence matters all that much?  

[ByGrace3]

I think it really depends on the student. Like you, I came from the school of thought-- Biology, chemistry, physics...they my real life kids came into the picture. My older dd took bio in 9th, chemistry in 10th and then wanted to DE so now is in college Biology and plans to take college A&P in the fall. My ds on the other hand, is taking 9th grade biology but I think he needs some maturity before tackling chemistry so I am planning for him to take a Physics course next year which I think he will enjoy more. I wish I would have had him take physics for 9th. 

[pehp]

10 minutes ago, ByGrace3 said:

I think it really depends on the student. Like you, I came from the school of thought-- Biology, chemistry, physics...they my real life kids came into the picture. My older dd took bio in 9th, chemistry in 10th and then wanted to DE so now is in college Biology and plans to take college A&P in the fall. My ds on the other hand, is taking 9th grade biology but I think he needs some maturity before tackling chemistry so I am planning for him to take a Physics course next year which I think he will enjoy more. I wish I would have had him take physics for 9th. 

Thanks!  It's hard to tell with this child of mine--in either case he'd take Chemistry in 11th grade, which I think will be appropriate for him.

Is it tricky to take Physics and Algebra 1 in the same year?  It seems like it might be best to have Algebra 1 already under one's belt, but the courses I'm seeing (I'm looking at Wilson Hill Academy in particular) only require a concurrent enrollment in Algebra 1.  

[ByGrace3]

7 minutes ago, pehp said:

Thanks!  It's hard to tell with this child of mine--in either case he'd take Chemistry in 11th grade, which I think will be appropriate for him.

Is it tricky to take Physics and Algebra 1 in the same year?  It seems like it might be best to have Algebra 1 already under one's belt, but the courses I'm seeing (I'm looking at Wilson Hill Academy in particular) only require a concurrent enrollment in Algebra 1.  

As for Algebra 1, I think that depends on the Physics class. If they say concurrent then my guess it is a conceptual physics course and not an algebra based physics...

[regentrude]

I am all for physics first - if the student is strong in math.
I would not choose physics concurrently with algebra 1- there is very little one can do in physics without at least algebra 1. This will be at the most a Conceptual Physics course, and even for that, prior algebra knowledge will greatly enhance the experience. (How do you discuss F=ma without an understanding of algebraic equations and symbol use?). In general I do not consider physics a suitable first science for a student who takes algebra 1 only in 9th grade;. 

For a strong math student, physics first is a fabulous choice! Both my kids took physics as their first science first in 9th grade, but they had completed algebra and some basic trig before and were able to take a rigorous algebra+trig based course.

Edited February 28, 2022 by regentrude

[pehp]

2 hours ago, regentrude said:

I am all for physics first - if the student is strong in math.
I would not choose physics concurrently with algebra 1- there is very little one can do in physics without at least algebra 1. This will be at the most a Conceptual Physics course, and even for that, prior algebra knowledge will greatly enhance the experience. (How do you discuss F=ma without an understanding of algebraic equations and symbol use?). In general I do not consider physics a suitable first science for a student who takes algebra 1 only in 9th grade;. 

For a strong math student, physics first is a fabulous choice! Both my kids took physics as their first science first in 9th grade, but they had completed algebra and some basic trig before and were able to take a rigorous algebra+trig based course.

Yes--my impression is that it's a conceptual physics course, and I agree with the assessment that even with those classes, algebra seems like the type of thing that would be best to have *done* first, not *in progress.* My son is a very good math student, but hasn't completed algebra yet (not his fault, but mine: my husband had Stage 4 cancer when my son was 11, so we are a year "behind" in math, but my engineering, cancer-surviving husband said it's much better to keep steady on with laying a good foundation--which we certainly have done--and just get to algebra a bit later).  

This is really helpful! It is making me lean in the direction of simply forging ahead with the more traditional sequence of courses. 

 

[pehp]

2 hours ago, ByGrace3 said:

As for Algebra 1, I think that depends on the Physics class. If they say concurrent then my guess it is a conceptual physics course and not an algebra based physics...

Correct!  I definitely don't think this could be algebra-based, since concurrent enrollment is allowed.  And part of me thinks: why take a conceptual class early in high school and then also take an algebra-based course later in high school?  

At the same time, this is my mystery child who is hard to figure out. He's gifted in languages, but also enjoys math and science a lot, as well as basically everything else (!), so it's tough to know where to focus for him or what route to take. 

Edited March 1, 2022 by pehp

[regentrude]

2 minutes ago, pehp said:

Yes--my impression is that it's a conceptual physics course, and I agree with the assessment that even with those classes, algebra seems like the type of thing that would be best to have *done* first, not *in progress.* My son is a very good math student, but hasn't completed algebra yet (not his fault, but mine: my husband had Stage 4 cancer when my son was 11, so we are a year "behind" in math, but my engineering, cancer-surviving husband said it's much better to keep steady on with laying a good foundation--which we certainly have done--and just get to algebra a bit later).  

This is really helpful! It is making me lean in the direction of simply forging ahead with the more traditional sequence of courses. 

If your son is strong in math and just on a different timeline because of circumstances, I would suggest he take algebra and then afterwards take an algebra based physics course. And your DH is right: foundation is everything.

The entire idea of "science sequence" is stupid anyway; elsewhere, sciences are taught concurrently over the course of many years and not in 1-year-of-this-then-forget-it-again packages. 

[pehp]

Just now, regentrude said:

If your son is strong in math and just on a different timeline because of circumstances, I would suggest he take algebra and then afterwards take an algebra based physics course. And your DH is right: foundation is everything.

The entire idea of "science sequence" is stupid anyway; elsewhere, sciences are taught concurrently over the course of many years and not in 1-year-of-this-then-forget-it-again packages. 

Yep--his timeline is 100% circumstances and not abilities.  He's getting a rock-solid foundation now. If I had a do-over, I would have tried to stick harder to math in 6th grade, but it was a "survival year" for sure.  And my husband IS surviving! 🙂Live and learn. 

[regentrude]

Just now, pehp said:

Yep--his timeline is 100% circumstances and not abilities.  He's getting a rock-solid foundation now. If I had a do-over, I would have tried to stick harder to math in 6th grade, but it was a "survival year" for sure.  And my husband IS surviving! 🙂Live and learn. 

Priorities! In the big scheme of things, where he is in math is not the least bit important compared to what your family went through.

[cintinative]

Regentrude is really the expert here, but I will tell you what I have consistently heard here--physics makes more sense if you do the math with it. So conceptual physics has its place, but if you have a strong math student, it really doesn't make sense to put them in a conceptual physics class.  They would  be losing out on the opportunity to understand the "why" of things.

I thought that WHA uses Novare. I am not familiar with their physics. I know Novare has a "physics first" approach and you can read about it on their website.

For us, we did Bio first so that my kids could both have Alg I done before they took physics. That's an option you have.  Even with having Alg I finished, there were some trig concepts and trajectory type problems that were introduced in this physics course that were a bit beyond Alg I.  It has been understandable only because we had Alg I covered.  There is a lot of basic algebra in rearranging equations to solve for a variable also.  So it really makes sense to have algebra solid before taking physics, IMO. 

[pehp]

1 hour ago, cintinative said:

Regentrude is really the expert here, but I will tell you what I have consistently heard here--physics makes more sense if you do the math with it. So conceptual physics has its place, but if you have a strong math student, it really doesn't make sense to put them in a conceptual physics class.  They would  be losing out on the opportunity to understand the "why" of things.

I thought that WHA uses Novare. I am not familiar with their physics. I know Novare has a "physics first" approach and you can read about it on their website.

For us, we did Bio first so that my kids could both have Alg I done before they took physics. That's an option you have.  Even with having Alg I finished, there were some trig concepts and trajectory type problems that were introduced in this physics course that were a bit beyond Alg I.  It has been understandable only because we had Alg I covered.  There is a lot of basic algebra in rearranging equations to solve for a variable also.  So it really makes sense to have algebra solid before taking physics, IMO. 

This is really helpful!  Also the point about the "why"--my son is 100% a "WHY" person who always tries to understand the why behind ev.ery.thing. 

Biology it is, I think!

[mlktwins]

Mine did Bio in 9th, Chemistry in 10th, and are doing Physics in 11th.  Mine were doing Alg. 2 in 9th grade.  We are happy with this progression.  Mine aren't STEM kids though.

[daijobu]

I have STEM kids.  We did:

9th grade: AP chem

10th grade: AP bio

11th grade: AP physics C

12th grade: some other physics.  heat and light?  

[Eos]

nm

Edited March 1, 2022 by Eos