How do you explain "it" and "there" as subjects, to ESL learners?

[J-rap]

I'm having a really difficult time finding an easy way to explain these to someone.  Are there formulas that could help?

For example:

It was hot yesterday.

It was really crowded.

There were a lot of people at the event.

There was just one person at the theater.

[Kiara.I]

Do they already understand that a pronoun replaces a noun?

And then that "there" and "it" are pronouns?

[J-rap]

4 minutes ago, Kiara.I said:

Do they already understand that a pronoun replaces a noun?

And then that "there" and "it" are pronouns?

Good point.  It has been taught that they are pronouns, yes.  But how do you explain them after that?  I guess that's what I struggle with.  A pronoun represents something.  How do you describe what they represent?  (As in, "It is raining."  Or "There it is.")

ETA:  Actually, "There it is" probably isn't the best example.  Maybe as in "There are a dozen cookies in the box."

Edited November 29, 2021 by J-rap

[Arctic Bunny]

I got lost down some rabbit holes, but came across this in my travels. Maybe it helps?

Existential There

 

[Gil]

10 hours ago, J-rap said:

I'm having a really difficult time finding an easy way to explain these to someone.  Are there formulas that could help?

For example:

It was hot yesterday.

It was really crowded.

There were a lot of people at the event.

There was just one person at the theater.

The only ESLs I've taught have been Spanish speakers, so I just model the sentence in Spanish, then in English. I color code a lot.
To my mind, its unnatural to study a language via grammar -- it's all about the pattern of "how it's said" so I just teach that way too.

I simply explained that they can use "it" for any single non-human thing.

The weather was hot yesterday.  |   It was hot yesterday.
The room was really crowded.  |  It was really crowded.
The dog is fast. |  It is fast.
A sandwich is on the counter.  | It is on the counter.

In Spanish, there is a word for "there were" and "there was" because of the way verbs are conjugated. So, for the ESLs that I've worked with there were and there was are just taught as a phrase and via a hundred explicit color-coded examples.

[Miss Tick]

What is your students' first language? Perhaps there is a comparable item?

[J-rap]

5 hours ago, Arctic Bunny said:

I got lost down some rabbit holes, but came across this in my travels. Maybe it helps?

Existential There

 

This looks like a really helpful site.. Thanks!

[J-rap]

2 hours ago, Gil said:

The only ESLs I've taught have been Spanish speakers, so I just model the sentence in Spanish, then in English. I color code a lot.
To my mind, its unnatural to study a language via grammar -- it's all about the pattern of "how it's said" so I just teach that way too.

I simply explained that they can use "it" for any single non-human thing.

The weather was hot yesterday.  |   It was hot yesterday.
The room was really crowded.  |  It was really crowded.
The dog is fast. |  It is fast.
A sandwich is on the counter.  | It is on the counter.

In Spanish, there is a word for "there were" and "there was" because of the way verbs are conjugated. So, for the ESLs that I've worked with there were and there was are just taught as a phrase and via a hundred explicit color-coded examples.

Yes, I guess that's the clearest way of explaining it.  I think what I've struggled with (in explaining "it") is that we've of course always learned that you can't use a pronoun until you've introduced the specific subject.  (So you can't just start with "She" unless the listener knows who "she" is.)  But with "it" you don't always need to do that.  You can step outside and immediately just say "It's hot."  Or, "It feels really strange out here."  I find examples like that difficult to explain.

"There" seems to be a whole different bug, but also vague/abstract in the same way as the particular examples of "it" above.  Not in, "There it is!" But in "There are answers to this problem, we just have to find them!"

[J-rap]

2 hours ago, SusanC said:

What is your students' first language? Perhaps there is a comparable item?

The difficulty is that this is someone with a brain injury so they're simply learning English again from scratch.  (And they've come a long way, but their method of re-learning it is by logically understanding it.  Not just absorbing it over time as we do as children, so it just sounds right -- whether we actually understand why or not.)

[Miss Tick]

1 hour ago, J-rap said:

The difficulty is that this is someone with a brain injury so they're simply learning English again from scratch.  (And they've come a long way, but their method of re-learning it is by logically understanding it.  Not just absorbing it over time as we do as children, so it just sounds right -- whether we actually understand why or not.)

Ah, that does sound tricky.

[Clarita]

2 hours ago, J-rap said:

And they've come a long way, but their method of re-learning it is by logically understanding it.  Not just absorbing it over time as we do as children, so it just sounds right -- whether we actually understand why or not.

Is that for expedience? As an adult I've found the little kid method of repeat exposure to work really well, especially for the more abstract (doesn't totally make sense) things/phrases. So a little kid with their native language is a long absorbing it over time process, but if you teach them a foreign language you can expedite it by repeating the same phrasing/expression for them over and over in a lesson. 

For example you may repeat the phrase "There are shoes in the box," "There are cookies in the jar, " "There are cats in the tub" ... with actual objects or pictures show them what that sentence/phrase actually represents. Once the person has a grasp of "There are __ in the __." phrase. Then you can start to explain logically why we may chose are vs. is or in the versus something else. Or you can compare and contrast 2 words like there vs. here. Some things are hard to explain using words and are easier to explain by showing. 

 

[J-rap]

8 hours ago, Clarita said:

Is that for expedience? As an adult I've found the little kid method of repeat exposure to work really well, especially for the more abstract (doesn't totally make sense) things/phrases. So a little kid with their native language is a long absorbing it over time process, but if you teach them a foreign language you can expedite it by repeating the same phrasing/expression for them over and over in a lesson. 

For example you may repeat the phrase "There are shoes in the box," "There are cookies in the jar, " "There are cats in the tub" ... with actual objects or pictures show them what that sentence/phrase actually represents. Once the person has a grasp of "There are __ in the __." phrase. Then you can start to explain logically why we may chose are vs. is or in the versus something else. Or you can compare and contrast 2 words like there vs. here. Some things are hard to explain using words and are easier to explain by showing. 

 

That's a good point, and yes, it's partly for expedience.  But also, it's a different part of the brain that's learning language now, so it takes many more repetitions to get there.  (If you're basing it on listening alone.)  The logical explanation bit makes it much easier.  But this does remind me that simple intentional repetition is also beneficial.

[73349]

There is not a subject. If I write, "There should be chocolate in the pantry," the subject is chocolate.

[PeterPan]

On 11/29/2021 at 10:52 AM, J-rap said:

The difficulty is that this is someone with a brain injury so they're simply learning English again from scratch.  (And they've come a long way, but their method of re-learning it is by logically understanding it.  Not just absorbing it over time as we do as children, so it just sounds right -- whether we actually understand why or not.)

Are they also getting SLP services? There's a methodology to use *music* to regain language/speech because the language was stored there as well. 

[J-rap]

14 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Are they also getting SLP services? There's a methodology to use *music* to regain language/speech because the language was stored there as well. 

Yes, he is! (Getting SLP services.)   Which continues to be immensely helpful, but I try and fill in gaps where I can.  And he has done music therapy treatment through Harvard University.  Pretty fascinating.  It hasn't really helped him remember words, but it definitely helps him speak more articulately and easily.