Can we talk about output for high schoolers?

[thewellerman]

I struggle with deciding how much is enough.  My dd does a lot of studying and researching on things that interest her, and she is very capable of discussing them at length.  What types of output (and how much per homegrown course) do you require?  

[freesia]

My eleventh grader is doing a self-guided study of World War 1. He fills out a weekly sheet which lists resources used, key events, key people, summary of what he learned (bullet points allowed), a question he has based on his study and at least one thing he'd like to look into more.  We meet weekly and he tells me what he's learned.  One a month he does a 5 + paragraph essay.

[SoCal_Bear]

1 hour ago, freesia said:

My eleventh grader is doing a self-guided study of World War 1. He fills out a weekly sheet which lists resources used, key events, key people, summary of what he learned (bullet points allowed), a question he has based on his study and at least one thing he'd like to look into more.  We meet weekly and he tells me what he's learned.  One a month he does a 5 + paragraph essay.

Freesia,

Would you be open to sharing that weekly sheet?

 

[freesia]

4 minutes ago, calbear said:

Freesia,

Would you be open to sharing that weekly sheet?

 

I will try. It’s not beautiful or anything. If I can’t I’ll copy the exact questions for you. 

[freesia]

I hope this worked.  I also have something I wrote about expectations for amount of hours, etc.  I find it works better to have a written plan that can be referred to.

world wars sheet.docx

[Clemsondana]

It depends on the class.  I don't believe that every class needs to have a lot of output, but I do want to make sure that the kids learn all of the skills that they need.  Over the summer kid did a 1/2 credit Science Fiction class.  I found a college science fiction textbook, and kid read a selection of the stories and commentaries from that.  Then kid read all of the books in 3 difference science fiction series, for a total of 10+ classic, dense books.  That seemed like a good bit of reading for a 1/2 credit.  At the end, kid wrote a paper comparing some aspect of the 3 series.  Kid is also working on a horticulture elective, and for that kid is reading, doing some hands-on garden work (we count that like a lab), and making notes in a journal about what they read or observe.  I teach a science class for high schoolers in which they write weekly papers about what they've learned and what the societal implications are.  It's not hard in the same sense that AP Chemistry is, but many students say it's one of their favorite classes because it opens their eyes to new ideas and expands their thinking.  

I aim for a mix of different levels of activity each year - like, if the US history class is a high output class, then maybe English can be more reading that year, with everything totaling a reasonable amount of work.  And, I try not to make one subject light every year - a high output US history one year might be balanced with a reading-based world history the next year so that they have experience creating output across all subjects without drowning every year.  

[thewellerman]

Thank you.  This is very helpful.  My daughter is the sort to totally immerse herself in a topic, and exhaust it over a month or so.  She is definitely putting in the 150-180 hours per credit, but in such an atypical way that I can't give her the typical discussion questions and etc.  She simply moves too quickly and it becomes a frustrating exercise in busywork.  The "where have you been" type worksheet is a great way to document the rapid rabbit trails and depth she experiences, and she can do it quickly and keep moving.  I also have been leaning toward having her write a summary paper of some sort, so I think we will do that.  Having the freedom to learn at her own pace and satisfy her curiosity as an older student has been such a good thing for her, but I am still hanging on for dear life, lol.  

[chocolate-chip chooky]

I think it can be helpful to really ponder what the purpose of the output is.

If your goals are clear, then the type and amount of output is clearer.

I see no point in output for the sake of output.

 

[thewellerman]

Forgot the quote...see below. 🙂

Edited October 24, 2021 by thewellerman

[thewellerman]

10 hours ago, chocolate-chip chooky said:

I think it can be helpful to really ponder what the purpose of the output is.

If your goals are clear, then the type and amount of output is clearer.

I see no point in output for the sake of output.

 

Can you explain this more?  Some examples would be helpful to me.

[Clemsondana]

I can't speak for the previous poster, but when they say 'think about your goals' I tend to think in terms of my overall purpose for the output.  Is it to have some proof that they know the material?  To see if they know the material because you aren't sure?  To get more practice at writing essays?  To help them incorporate and interweave ideas from different sources?  To have something for a portfolio?  

Figuring that out can be helpful.  If I'm confident that my student has met my goals for the course through reading and discussion, I might require no output, unless they need something for a portfolio.  In my bio class, I assign certain 'compare and contrast chart' or 'make a flowchart' assignments because the students need to work with the material in order to learn it.  In other words, the purpose is the process, not the product.  That might be similar to making a timeline in history - it's not that I need to grade the timelilne, but they need to put the events in order to understand how they fit together.  But, if you had different goals, you could obviously assign an essay over the history content, or a compare-and-contrast paragraph for the science in order to work on writing.  I was sure that my student had read and understood the book series from their science fiction course, but I was interested in how they chose those series and what relationships they saw, so they wrote a comparative essay at the end.  I also want them to write a certain number of essays each year for the purpose of working on their writing, so that seemed like an obvious place to do it. 

[chocolate-chip chooky]

8 hours ago, thewellerman said:

Can you explain this more?  Some examples would be helpful to me.

I think that there are a number of factors that impact on our need for output and choice of output.

One is where you live and the regulations you need to follow as homeschoolers, and the evidence you need to provide to your authorities.

Another is your child's learning style and trajectory.

Another is your own comfort level as the parent. ie how okay we are with maybe having our homeschooling look a bit different or a lot different to someone else's, or even everyone else's.

And how does our personality mesh with the child's learning style?

Also, for me, I always had big picture goals guiding me overall, but also shorter-term goals that helped guide my planning within a month or term.

 

So, we all have a different mix of those factors, I believe, and I think that they all really impact on our choices of output.

 

As an example, sometimes my goal was purely exposure to something. An example here would be literature. I wanted my daughter to come out the other side of homeschooling with a good general knowledge of as many works of literature as possible. Out of dozens of works, she maybe produced actual output for about four or five things. And that output was because I had another goal that linked nicely eg I wanted her to master compare and contrast essays.

 

I'm not sure if any of this is helpful, but I'm happy to try to explain more if it is.

 

[chocolate-chip chooky]

The reason I jumped in to join this conversation is that your description of your daughter is very relatable 🙂

[thewellerman]

12 hours ago, chocolate-chip chooky said:

The reason I jumped in to join this conversation is that your description of your daughter is very relatable 🙂

I wish you much coffee and good luck. 🙂

I think we are really at the point of output for proof.  I'm sure she has mastery of the material, and she doesn't need to practice writing in those contexts, or deepen understanding in some way.  For some things, she does have a lot of output, but those are usually in math and science.  I appreciate all the responses because it helps me feel better about trusting myself, documenting, and moving on.   

[Lilaclady]

Maybe doing her work in a block schedule for some of her work can be helpful in getting done and moving on. You will need to do some work before hand in preparing what you want her to do for output, reports, research papers essay and give her points that the output are due maybe biweekly or monthly. 

[RoundAbout]

I'm glad you brought this up as its something I struggle with this as well. It's especially tough when you have a kid who is highly capable. I remember mountains of homework in high school and it seems like my DS (9th grade) is doing less output and spending less time on school work than I did, but on the other hand absolutely none of it is busy work. Mostly I'm trying to just keep things balanced. He's doing Lukeion Greek, AoPS Pre-Calc, and AP level Chem which all require significant brain power, time, and output. He's also studying for contests (USAMTS, AMC, NACLO), studying an extra foreign language in his free time and doing stuff like programming and arts (photography, dance class, piano lessons). His schedule is FULL, but for some reason it makes me nervous that his English and Social Studies are mostly just read and discuss. 

I also try to keep in mind that some of my core values for the teenage years are plenty of sleep and exercise, contributing to chores and family life, having time, and not getting burnt out before college. It's just not possible to do all of that and have high output in every single subject.

[chocolate-chip chooky]

8 hours ago, RoundAbout said:

I'm glad you brought this up as its something I struggle with this as well. It's especially tough when you have a kid who is highly capable. I remember mountains of homework in high school and it seems like my DS (9th grade) is doing less output and spending less time on school work than I did, but on the other hand absolutely none of it is busy work. Mostly I'm trying to just keep things balanced. He's doing Lukeion Greek, AoPS Pre-Calc, and AP level Chem which all require significant brain power, time, and output. He's also studying for contests (USAMTS, AMC, NACLO), studying an extra foreign language in his free time and doing stuff like programming and arts (photography, dance class, piano lessons). His schedule is FULL, but for some reason it makes me nervous that his English and Social Studies are mostly just read and discuss. 

I also try to keep in mind that some of my core values for the teenage years are plenty of sleep and exercise, contributing to chores and family life, having time, and not getting burnt out before college. It's just not possible to do all of that and have high output in every single subject.

Don't underestimate the 'read and discuss' strategy, particularly if your student is reading widely and discussing deeply and analytically.

A decent bulk of my daughter's homeschooled highschooling involved this, and the content has stuck. If your goal is a good general knowledge of the topic, then read and discuss is a good strategy.

 

 

[lewelma]

21 hours ago, chocolate-chip chooky said:

Don't underestimate the 'read and discuss' strategy, particularly if your student is reading widely and discussing deeply and analytically.

A decent bulk of my daughter's homeschooled highschooling involved this, and the content has stuck. If your goal is a good general knowledge of the topic, then read and discuss is a good strategy.

 

 

Agreeing with this. My older boy did very very little output for his homeschool classes in English, world history, philosophy, contemporary world problems, economics of inequality, and comparative government. But he won the top award at MIT for his work in the humanities and social sciences in his sophomore year. He was considered a very deep thinker and a major contributor to class discussions. 

My son learned to write through math proofs with AoPS and the competitions, and these were transferable skills. He has gotten A's in all of his writing heavy humanities/social sciences classes in university because he could write logically (learned through proofs) and could think deeply (learned through reading and discussion). 

[chocolate-chip chooky]

@lewelma Over the years I've been on this board, and all the people I've followed and listened to in that time, it is your oldest boy and his learning journey that has resonated with me the most.

I remember you once posting something about him listening to a lecture in double-speed while also playing his violin. I remember nodding along, completely relating!