MP Classical Composition Users

[Dianthus]

One of the reasons I felt I should try MP is because I read great reviews of their writing.  My dd12 has done IEW S&S A1 with the videos, and it was going fine but I worried about her being over focused on fitting in all the descriptive verbs and adverbs etc.

I have started the MP accelerated Fable, and am finding it so difficult to teach. I'm thinking of returning to IEW.  She just isn't getting much from the recognition, reversal, variations, etc. She needs help with it then just seems to reiterate the original Fable.  Her IEW papers were better.  We have also just had a hard time doing writing since I have to help her instead of using the Pudawa videos (which she enjoyed).  I want to give this a fair go, and we've only gotten through 2 lessons (so 2 weeks of writing in our 5 weeks of school). Should I keep on or bag it and move on? I feel like I'm not giving it a fair chance,  but I also want her to write and it's not getting done.

Any MP CC users who can advise?

Edited September 25, 2021 by Spirea

[Kezia]

Do you have the DVD’s?

[Dianthus]

4 hours ago, Kezia said:

Do you have the DVD’s?

For CC? No, I didn't realize there was one.  Is it well done?

She enjoyed Mr. Pudewa and his jokes.

[Kezia]

They have streamed videos and DVD’s. He doesn’t make jokes but is easy to follow. He goes through the lesson step by step, helping to see how to fill out the outline (I don’t really focus on that, I believe the outline is really there to help the student ensure that all the main points are in the rewrite), gives examples of the descriptions, he does narrations just to demonstrate what the student is going for. Most of that is also in the teachers manual, but when he says what is expected, it is clear. Some is a little different because I believe they updated the books and not the videos or maybe it was the other way around. I find the DVD’s very helpful especially if you haven’t been through it before. 
 

MP has a forum as well where they are very helpful with any questions you have. 
 

I have never used IEW, however I did seriously look into it. Many people use it and they glaze over the checklist for their kids. They modify it a bit and if their kid Is getting hung up or are over focused on the “must use an ly adverb and underline it “ part (or whatever they are hung up on) then they let that bit go unchecked. I see the point of the check list but the rigidness can make the writing awkward in some cases. I knew from reviewing it that the check list would not always be encouraged for my student. Sometimes but not always. 
 

The variations in MP CC also encourage word variations and sentence variations, and all the complex names (recongition, reversal, geographia, dendrographia....) all that is really pulling the key parts/ideas/content of the story out and using vivid descriptions of a tree or a place. 
 

I really see both IEW and CC as teaching through imitation just going about it in different ways. The outlining is different and  the word variations differs, but they both teach through imitation first. 
 

I don’t feel you can just use MP CC as the only writing you do and not be doing at least some of the writing exercises in history, science, literature...MP’s other curriculum involves writing across the board from complete informative sentences as answers to the composition level. MP CC, from my understanding, is teaching how to think. I am using it because I like where I see it going, but I am not even sure if I will be homeschooling after this school year. We are using Narrative currently, but the next book Chreia and Maxim is one I would really like to see him working on. 
 

Since you are doing fable accelerated, you could truck on with fable and re-evaluate when fable is finished. There is so much great writing curriculum available now, and IEW is one of the leaders. At least you have it narrowed down to just the two 😉

 

[Dianthus]

@Kezia thanks for all that.

In general, I'm having a hard time with the MP curriculum and manuals, but trying to figure out the lessons in CC is the worst.  The lesson plans just gives the lessons scheduled, but in the teacher's guide there isn't a good lesson plan breakdown.  I also purchased Narrative I.  The accelerated plan is that both are completed in one year on a faster pace but it's been going so slowly. I will call MP next week about the DVD.

[8filltheheart]

I would move on to something different for a 12 yo and focus instead on just having her write. Fable, even accelerated, is way below a 12 yo. A 12 yo should be working on different writing skills and mastering more complex concepts more quickly than a 9yr old.

[ChickaDeeDeeDee]

We tried Fable with the DVDs at some point and after a few lessons it just started to feel like torture.  We moved on and I have no regrets 🙂 

[Dianthus]

I'm regetting that I spent so much money and am having to figure out a new curriculum 6 weeks in and will feel behind. 🤦🏻‍♀️🤯

Tomorrow, I'll ask my daughter if she would like to return to IEW. I forgot to call MP today.

And if we do go to IEW,  do we do level A year 2 or move to level B year 1? IEW recommended A2 but I don't want it to be so much of the same.  Or should I consider a higher level of MP? MP recommended I begin with Fable I because she hadn't been in their system previously. 

I'm tempted to return to IEW just because it's so much easier for me. I know my daughter would prefer it.  I don't feel up to another experimental curriculum. I'm feeling frayed.

[8filltheheart]

@SpireaWhat basic writing skills does she possess?

Can she write a paragraph that has a topic sentence and supporting details in logical sequence and without incorporating unrelated information?

Can she write multiple a multiple paragraph paper with an intro, conclusion, and transitions?

Or can she write a multiple paragraph report that needs work on the above?

I would stop and evaluate her actual abilities before you make a decision. I see the programs you mention as focused on lower elementary grade skills. Since she is 12, I would try to spend this yr getting her writing basics solid, but not by going back to books that take mult6yrs to progress through to end up where she needs to be. There is no need bc older kids learn faster and can incorporate more difficult concepts simultaneously than younger students.

I might look at a book like WriteSource 2000. https://www.amazon.com/Write-Source-Writing-Thinking-Learning/dp/0669386251 

 

[Janeway]

7 hours ago, Spirea said:

I'm regetting that I spent so much money and am having to figure out a new curriculum 6 weeks in and will feel behind. 🤦🏻‍♀️🤯

Tomorrow, I'll ask my daughter if she would like to return to IEW. I forgot to call MP today.

And if we do go to IEW,  do we do level A year 2 or move to level B year 1? IEW recommended A2 but I don't want it to be so much of the same.  Or should I consider a higher level of MP? MP recommended I begin with Fable I because she hadn't been in their system previously. 

I'm tempted to return to IEW just because it's so much easier for me. I know my daughter would prefer it.  I don't feel up to another experimental curriculum. I'm feeling frayed.

For a 12 yr old, just move on to level B. I know if we started from scratch now, with my 12 yr old, who only turned 12 this month, having never done anything before (I did not tell them we had done anything before anyway, they did not ask), they recommended level B.

[Dianthus]

Called IEW.  They said use level B1 and that they have more writing structure in that level so I think it would be better.

Called MP.  They said they start kids at Fable I.  It may be repetitive,  but they need to gain mastery.  Narrative looks like there is more structure.  I could possible just do a couple more Fable lesson then try moving to Narrative.

My daughter says she doesn't want to do IEW again because it takes too long, but she's doing hardly any writing now.  I think I don't have time to figure out MP and make it more interesting for her.

Edited September 28, 2021 by Spirea

[Dianthus]

Waiting at sports practice so have time to review CC books. Haven't had time to look at Writesource.

The CC Fable lessons are all the same with recognition, reversal, outline, variation, and paraphrase. The paraphrase changes sometimes requiring anemographia, dendeographia, ethopoeia, chorographia, chronographia, astrothesia, emphasis, geographic, dialogismus, hydrographia, mimosas, topographia, pragmatographia, prospopoeia, sermocinatio, effictio... etc.  Are these really necessary?? 

Narrative does look better.  The first step is to identify the 9 components of the narrative, then outline, then identify plot components on outline (recognition, reversal, and suffering), then variations, then paraphrase with some of the above listed terms. I think we could skip Fable and go right into Narrative at this point. However, it still does not teach paragraph format, topic, conclusion, etc.  Even IEW level A did some of that with the "topic clincher".  So, maybe IEW would be better. 

What a huge frustration right now.

[8filltheheart]

To answer your question, no, none of those are necessary.  

I know that none of my children know those terms or ever practiced those types of writing exercises, yet my kids are strong writers who have excelled in academic writing. 

Edited September 29, 2021 by 8filltheheart

[Dianthus]

46 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

To answer your question, no, none of those are necessary.  

I know that none of my children know those terms or ever practiced those types of writing exercises, yet my kids are strong writers who have excelled in academic writing. 

Yes, I think learning those terms is excessive especially if this is really designed for 9 yr olds.  She just says she doesn't know what it means and then imitates the examples I give her.  I think I can't make this work for us.

[Janeway]

What about Writeshop or EIW?

[Dianthus]

50 minutes ago, Janeway said:

What about Writeshop or EIW?

I remember looking at EIW once upon a time, but I just need something easy for me that gets done.  And IEW is that.  I already know how it works. I feel like I can't learn another curriculum right now.  And Mr. Pudewa basically teaches it all so can be more independent for her to complete. My kids are 12, 9, 6 and 10 months and I just am barely on schedule for getting school completed each day. We are not doing school all day long, but I'm never done with everything before 4 and then I go straight to making dinner.

[Janeway]

35 minutes ago, Spirea said:

I remember looking at EIW once upon a time, but I just need something easy for me that gets done.  And IEW is that.  I already know how it works. I feel like I can't learn another curriculum right now.  And Mr. Pudewa basically teaches it all so can be more independent for her to complete. My kids are 12, 9, 6 and 10 months and I just am barely on schedule for getting school completed each day. We are not doing school all day long, but I'm never done with everything before 4 and then I go straight to making dinner.

EIW has a video and teaches it too. They also have a grading service you can purchase.

[Dianthus]

36 minutes ago, Janeway said:

EIW has a video and teaches it too. They also have a grading service you can purchase.

It includes grammar. I'm going to stay with MP grammar.  I like it and I don't want to have to weed out another thing, like an included grammar lesson.

[Janeway]

4 hours ago, Spirea said:

It includes grammar. I'm going to stay with MP grammar.  I like it and I don't want to have to weed out another thing, like an included grammar lesson.

I understand that level 7 and above do not include grammar. But it is okay if you are not interested. I have not used it myself. I just know that your list of writing programs was pretty much my list. So I was just thinking you might like that.

[Dianthus]

I feel like I ask for advice then do what I want anyway, then sometimes am disappointed with the results. Doesn't make much sense. Maybe something else would be better, but at this point, I think IEW would be easier.  I have been so frustrated with MP CC, don't really like it and it's not getting done.  Also my 9 yr old doing All Things Fun and Fascinating likes to watch the videos too, so that will be a bonus to help with his lessons.

OK, next I'll be posting a math problem.

[Lori D.]

57 minutes ago, Spirea said:

I feel like I ask for advice then do what I want anyway, then sometimes am disappointed with the results. Doesn't make much sense. Maybe something else would be better, but at this point, I think IEW would be easier.  I have been so frustrated with MP CC, don't really like it and it's not getting done.  Also my 9 yr old doing All Things Fun and Fascinating likes to watch the videos too, so that will be a bonus to help with his lessons...

Maybe Essentials in Writing? Video-based lessons. I'd just start at level 6 (for ages 11-12). Starting with level 7 there is an option Scoring Service for an extra fee, which can be greatly motivating to students, as they often write more/better for an outside instructor or grader than for the parent... 😉

Or, Cover Story (gr. 6-8), if she enjoys some creative writing. Video-based lessons, very engaging. Would be a great program to solidify and practice skills, and then move into longer, more complex writing in 7th or 8th grade.

Both would reduce stress on you, as the instruction is via video lessons, so it would more be overseeing assignments and providing feedback... Although you might consider watching alongside so you can have fun chatting about the lessons together... 

[teachermom2834]

My dd has used Classical Composition. She did fable at home with me in 4th grade and then MPOA for the next three levels. She enjoyed it. She is a solid writer. There is a lot of repetition. Was fine for our purposes. MP does always say to start at Fable but they don’t spend a whole year with older kids. MPOA offers classes that combine two levels for middle schoolers and that combine four levels for high school. So even MP doesn’t have older kids doing all of each level. They just do a few lessons and move on. 
 

I have three older kids that used IEW. They switched to literature based courses in high school and learned to write a research paper and write in other subjects. They are good writers too! We did IEW with me teaching (not the videos). They were able to transition to other writing assignments easily. 
 

 

[Dianthus]

19 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

My dd has used Classical Composition. She did fable at home with me in 4th grade and then MPOA for the next three levels. She enjoyed it. She is a solid writer. There is a lot of repetition. Was fine for our purposes. MP does always say to start at Fable but they don’t spend a whole year with older kids. MPOA offers classes that combine two levels for middle schoolers and that combine four levels for high school. So even MP doesn’t have older kids doing all of each level. They just do a few lessons and move on. 
 

I have three older kids that used IEW. They switched to literature based courses in high school and learned to write a research paper and write in other subjects. They are good writers too! We did IEW with me teaching (not the videos). They were able to transition to other writing assignments easily. 
 

 

When I called, I asked MP what they do when they have a new student entering 7th grade at their B&M school.  She said they have to take extra classes over the summer to catch up.  They again recommended beginning with Fable 1 to learn But yes, this is extremely repetitive.  I feel like they could have a few review lessons at the beginning of the grade 7 level and she would be fine.  I've been enchanted by the MP catalogs for far too long.  I just had to try when I discovered the secular offerings. Most of it is working well, but not this part.

[Emily ZL]

On 9/29/2021 at 10:51 PM, Spirea said:

I've been enchanted by the MP catalogs for far too long

Yep! Me too. They just look so great. Everything is very well planned. I love their ideas. It's the execution I don't like! It's as if they have an allergy to making anything interesting or enjoyable, like it's deliberately as dry as possible. And on the forum, it all sounds so beautiful. But when people ask them how to get their kids to like it more because it's torturing them, the response is usually that school shouldn't be fun or enjoyable; it should only give the joy that comes from doing a hard thing well. And I just disagree.

 

I told my husband about CC because it sounded perfect. He basically wrote his way into the ivy league, and he thought it sounded good too - until he actually saw the sample. Hard pass. Identifying the reversal, using the technical terms -- it just seems pedantic. "Good writers don't learn to write like this" was my husband's view. And the MP forum also has some threads about kids completing the program who don't know how to write a basic research paper, because that's not the focus. Just food for thought.

[Emily ZL]

You know what's funny is after posting my comment I went back to the MP site and forums to look around...and it still looks good! Lol. It will always be the one that got away. 😉