Singapore K Pacing Question

[jar2542]

We are in the middle of Singapore KA with my almost 5 year old.  I like it but I am not sure if I am using it correctly.  So my question is, if we get to a lesson that he has not mastered, are we suppose to just park there until he gets it or move on?  Does it revisit concepts later?  For example, we are on the number 8.  If he cannot recognize that 5 dots on top and 3 dots on bottom of the 10-frame is 8, should we just keep playing games and activities until he has mastered it?

Thank you!

[caffeineandbooks]

Hi, and welcome to the WTM boards!  This particular sub-thread is not as active as some of them, which might be why it's taking a while for someone with direct knowledge of your program to chime in.  We use Singapore (the old US edition that doesn't have a K level) and love it.  I will try to respond to your question in general terms!

Singapore is a spiral program, so it does revisit each topic each year, adding a bit more depth each time.  My grade 1 book checks that they recognize numbers 1-10 and can count that many objects, then moves into adding where the answer is less than 10, and by the end of the year has them adding and subtracting numbers within 100.

Each year, there are usually a couple of things where my kids struggle.  Sometimes I stop and hang out there until they understand it (eg bedding down how to subtract with carrying in 1st grade) and other things where I keep moving on in the book but add in practice on the side (eg addition/multiplication facts).  Recognizing a particular arrangement of dots is called subitizing, and it's an important skill that comes with repeated exposure over time.  Can he reliably count 8 objects?  Does he recognize the numeral 8?  If not, I'd set aside the program for a while and do lots of counting in daily life.  If so, I'd probably move on.

Next year in the grade 1 book you'll encounter addition facts.  That might be a good time to get Kate Snow's Addition Facts that Stick book (available as PDF here in the Well Trained Mind store), which also uses 10 frames, and revisit the idea while practising addition.  She gives some ideas for helping kids quickly subitize the 10-frames, and provides lots of fast, fun games and some simple worksheets to help kids painlessly learn their facts.

 

[jar2542]

Hi.  Thank you very much for your response.  He can reliably count things to 20, can recognize and write numbers 1-10 and can easily subitize numbers 1-5.  We have really gotten hung up on 6-10.  We did Math Lessons for a Living Education K and half of 1 which he flew through before I realized I wanted a more conceptual math program but it definitely seems he is getting hung up on the conceptual part.  The thing is, if we play a game that he likes and he is trying to win, he gets it correct 90% of the time so I actually feel like he knows it but just doesn't want to put forth the effort during table time to focus and think about it. 

He really liked doing his math when we were doing Math Lessons for a Living Education and now he protest math everyday.  He is not even 5 yet so maybe he is just not ready to think that way.  I don't want to start off his math career with a negative perception so maybe I should just shelf it for a few more months and try again.  

I appreciate you taking the time to respond and providing some feedback!

[Not_a_Number]

27 minutes ago, jar2542 said:

Hi.  Thank you very much for your response.  He can reliably count things to 20, can recognize and write numbers 1-10 and can easily subitize numbers 1-5.  We have really gotten hung up on 6-10.  We did Math Lessons for a Living Education K and half of 1 which he flew through before I realized I wanted a more conceptual math program but it definitely seems he is getting hung up on the conceptual part.  The thing is, if we play a game that he likes and he is trying to win, he gets it correct 90% of the time so I actually feel like he knows it but just doesn't want to put forth the effort during table time to focus and think about it. 

He really liked doing his math when we were doing Math Lessons for a Living Education and now he protest math everyday.  He is not even 5 yet so maybe he is just not ready to think that way.  I don't want to start off his math career with a negative perception so maybe I should just shelf it for a few more months and try again.  

I appreciate you taking the time to respond and providing some feedback!

Can he count on? In this situation, I'd teach him to count on. 

[Xahm]

With a young child who is that capable, you may well find that there's not a good program for him at this time. The programs that provide enough challenge in the areas of mathmatical thinking probably provide an inappropriate level of challenge in areas like attention span and fine motor skills. A lot of times, especially with first children who are pretty gifted, we base our understanding of what they can do on what their best is. It seems logical to ask them to do their best, but if you think about it, if there was a real emergency you could likely work 8 or more hours without taking a break, but if we defined that as "your best" and expected it from you every day, you'd be miserable and likely unable to keep it up. If your child at 4 is doing well in games but doesn't focus at table time, you can try to change your child and get him to focus, but b that will likely lead to lots of treats and frustration and very little learning, or you can adapt the program to suit the child you have, perhaps by changing more things to games or scribing for him where he tells you the answers and you write them down. In my experience, the ability to sit still and focus increases from ages 4-6 about the same amount whether you work hard on it or work gently on it by giving opportunities like arts and crafts, read alouds, and family dinners.

[Clemsondana]

I wouldn't be at all worried that a 4 year old can't yet do the work in a K program - some 5 year olds aren't ready yet, either.  I will say that, when I volunteered with kids using those 10-frames, I found that some of them never really 'saw' what they were supposed to see - they continued counting the group of 5 every time (this is said by somebody who used Singapore Math for both of my kids, but we never used the K program).  Part of the goal of these types of programs is for kids to see how to make 10, so I think seeing that you start with 5 and count on to get to 8 is part of the goal.  With my own kids, we used physical objects - we used blocks, but math manipulatives or paper clips or dried beans would also be fine.  I don't really understand why - maybe processed in a different part of the brain? - but some kids seemed to understand better with physical objects rather than drawn 10-frames, at least at first.  You might give that a try, but if it doesn't work I'd play with it gently and otherwise take a break from it.  

[Not_a_Number]

15 minutes ago, Clemsondana said:

I wouldn't be at all worried that a 4 year old can't yet do the work in a K program - some 5 year olds aren't ready yet, either.  I will say that, when I volunteered with kids using those 10-frames, I found that some of them never really 'saw' what they were supposed to see - they continued counting the group of 5 every time (this is said by somebody who used Singapore Math for both of my kids, but we never used the K program).  Part of the goal of these types of programs is for kids to see how to make 10, so I think seeing that you start with 5 and count on to get to 8 is part of the goal.  With my own kids, we used physical objects - we used blocks, but math manipulatives or paper clips or dried beans would also be fine.  I don't really understand why - maybe processed in a different part of the brain? - but some kids seemed to understand better with physical objects rather than drawn 10-frames, at least at first.  You might give that a try, but if it doesn't work I'd play with it gently and otherwise take a break from it.  

That’s why one can teach counting on 🙂 . I’ve had to teach it to lots of kids.

[HomeAgain]

So, just some thoughts about things I observed with my own kids...

You can absolutely treat a program like a sequence and not a schedule.  Allowing time for mastery of a concept is a GOOD thing, and that applies across subjects and grades.  If you like the way something teaches, then definitely give space and time for mastery between the steps of the program.

When it came to numbers, there are several approaches.  I like both the Montessori approach of a two-color set of strips, and single-number rods/beads/blocks.  The strips are easy to print when you don't have wood handy or you don't think you'll need them long.  I think I made ours out of paper glued to cardboard.  I had the same colors in cubes so we could play with taking a number apart and building it, but the strips on a numbered frame helped to see whole numbers.  I really like the rods/bead lines/blocks for playing with numbers, though.  I think kids need a mathematical approach where they see that numbers are real concepts and not disconnected abstracts.  For some, even dots can be too abstract at first.  They need more tangible, bringing a 5 and a 3 together to measure.

There are times to go back and revisit previous concepts, redoing lessons or allowing for more exploration.

 

I think, at age 4, we did a lot of just play with numbers in tangible form.  Lots of blocks and strips, lots of putting numbers together with stacking cards and blocks (a 10 card, with a 4 overlaid being done at the same time with a ten-block and a 4-block).  I also had a kid who was slow in writing skills, so much of elementary math did not require fine motor skills - very little writing, lots of conceptual play with a program that encouraged it.  I can't say that it hurt him any, and he's now very strong visually in math.

[Not_a_Number]

12 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

I think kids need a mathematical approach where they see that numbers are real concepts and not disconnected abstracts.

So, I had to say that aside from kids with dyscalculia, I do think that kids naturally pick up what a number is. At least that was my experience with a wide range of kids.

[jar2542]

23 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

Can he count on? In this situation, I'd teach him to count on. 

Yes, he can count to 50 consistently.  I haven't taught him past that, although we sometimes try to count to 100, but he definitely doesn't grasp the concept of "50."

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, jar2542 said:

Yes, he can count to 50 consistently.  I haven't taught him past that, although we sometimes try to count to 100, but he definitely doesn't grasp the concept of "50."

No, I mean, can he count on? Like, does he know that when you add 1 to a number, you get the next number? Or does he always start from 1 when putting numbers together?

[jar2542]

Thank you everybody for such great feedback.  It is the Singapore Dimensions program so it does use some manipulatives.  I just bought a set of cuisenaire rods that I thought he might enjoying playing with but don't have any plans for them.  I use a lot of counters on the 10 frame (he does excellent if I use something like skittles instead).  We play games like roll the dice and build blocks/linking cubes and the first one to 30 wins, the memory game with a numeral and a 10 frame card and card games like war and goldfish.  These are what he excels at and I would keep using these but it is my first time homeschooling and I need ideas.  I can't think of new games to play on my own and I spend too much time googling it.  That is why I needed a curriculum.  

I talked to my husband about it and he thinks I need to just play games with him for a few months and put the workbooks aside.  He wants to ensure that I am building a love of learning in our son and he is afraid that I may be hindering that.  I agree with him but I am fearful that I am setting a bad precedent at the beginning of our homeschool journey.  I don't want our son to think that he can just have a bad attitude and I will ditch the lessons but I think Xahm is correct and I shouldn't expect him to be at his best all the time either.  I know I'm not 🙂 

We also do All About Pre-Reading which he has no problem sitting down to do.  We went through all of Explode the Code A-C and he enjoyed that.  He will ask me to write words down on a paper and copies them for fun or he will open a book up and copy a sentence.  I have never asked him to do this.  He basically taught himself how to write letters although we have had to work on correcting a few.  He will sit and build legos while I read books for hours.  He is not a bounce off the wall type of kid.  He loves to just talk and listen.  The struggle has just been trying to find the right math program for him. 

At this point, I have been talking to my husband about taking the plunge into RightStart.  My husband is totally onboard with it but I am still unsure.

[jar2542]

24 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

No, I mean, can he count on? Like, does he know that when you add 1 to a number, you get the next number? Or does he always start from 1 when putting numbers together?

Oh, sorry, I didn't understand.  He can easily do that for 1-6 and again 9-11 but 6-9 is tricky.  I haven't really thought about that until now.  This is something I can start working on more consciously.  Thank you!

[Not_a_Number]

5 minutes ago, jar2542 said:

Oh, sorry, I didn't understand.  He can easily do that for 1-6 and again 9-11 but 6-9 is tricky.  I haven't really thought about that until now.  This is something I can start working on more consciously.  Thank you!

Ok, mind doing an experiment for me? 🙂 Because I’ve found that actively teaching kids how to add small numbers to other numbers opens lots of doors.

[HomeAgain]

If you want C-rod ideas, check out Education Unboxed or Math For Love.

I use this program, which is very oral/hands on with the c-rods.  The actual books are very slim, so you just go at your own pace with the rod exploration topics. I think it was what Miquon was built around, since this was the original and Miquon follows much of the same scope/sequence.  But you can see how it was put into practice here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ae0McT5WYa8&t=67s
 

I will say that about age 5-6, mine really enjoyed the puzzles from MEP.  You can download the copymasters for Year 1 and match the number in the corner to the teacher's lesson plans/activity within the lesson plan. Ex: 14/2 would be lesson 14, exercise 2.  I gave mine number cards to use rather than write in the blanks.  I think the entire first book is just bonds to 3, and slowly building after that with lots of different games and mental exercises.

[Sk8ermaiden]

My daughter was ready for and completed Singapore Earlybird at 4. My son was not ready and did it at 6 (he has a Sept birthday so that was technically his K year.) I've always considered my daughter mathy, but my son getting the concepts in US 1 even easier than she did.  There is no harm in slowing down and waiting. 

I have typically just carried on in Singapore unless the kid clearly did not understand the concept. The lessons build in a way - in that if you do adding decimals - now the next geometry unit will have measurements with decimals so you keep practicing the skills. I would not stop because the child can't recognize 8 on sight. I consider that a skill that just develops over time and practice. 

[Not_a_Number]

2 hours ago, HomeAgain said:

If you want C-rod ideas, check out Education Unboxed or Math For Love.

I REALLY like the Math For Love site. Their games are really good... although I tend to make them more hands-on than they do. 

 

2 hours ago, HomeAgain said:

I use this program, which is very oral/hands on with the c-rods.  The actual books are very slim, so you just go at your own pace with the rod exploration topics. I think it was what Miquon was built around, since this was the original and Miquon follows much of the same scope/sequence. 

I think you're right about Miquon 🙂 . 

[EKS]

I found RightStart to be better than Singapore for young children.  

[Clarita]

How did Masterbooks teach math differently? Could you make the Singapore math more Masterbook like? Maybe Masterbooks is going to work better for you even if everyone else loves Singapore.