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mcelx2hs

By mcelx2hs,
in The Learning Challenges Board

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I recommend middle school-ish, lots of pictures, interesting books for history, and then flesh them out with documentaries. I often recommend podcasts because they are high-interest like documentaries (Stuff You Missed in History Class). If you are super fancy, you can connect science in here as well.

For instance, this book could be a spine--https://play.google.com/store/books/details?id=f3nWBQAAQBAJ&gl=us&hl=en-US&source=productsearch&utm_source=HA_Desktop_US&utm_medium=SEM&utm_campaign=PLA&pcampaignid=MKT-FDR-na-us-1000189-Med-pla-bk-Evergreen-Jul1520-PLA-eBooks_Juvenile_Nonfiction&gclid=Cj0KCQjwmIuDBhDXARIsAFITC_7Gv430xfgdN7m5UwFr0ZV5iJXwzlsQxR8UiUZ-XXHf6OMEL6bjM68aAtozEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds 

My son is highly VSL but also highly auditory. He's 2e--profoundly gifted. But he's a box checker, so we do more typical stuff, and that is far less work for me. But I really, really wanted to do this book, seek out relevant science topics (there are many as part of the "Columbian Exchange" involved MAJOR ecological changes due to flora and fauna crossing the world on purpose and as hitch hikers), geography, podcasts, documentaries, art, economics (the influx of gold and silver, at minimum) and government--included church government since many of the explorers were invoking spiritual reasons to justify the exploration and conquest.

There are visual/documentary books and resources for all of those topics if you want to spend time in the library and on the internet/youtube. 

Some other visual (and sometimes hands on) stuff I would recommend:

  • Science by Ellen McHenry, but you'd have to do multiple units and maybe go more in depth on stuff to make a full credit. Heads up that her Rocks and Dirt is from a Young Earth creationist perspective, but the rest of her stuff is really neutral (so you'd have to add in discussions about evolution if you want that covered). You can't get more visual that her anatomy curriculum. I think it's called Mapping the Body with Art. You do not need to be good at drawing for this--there is a book you can purchase that has some of the more tedious/difficult drawing stuff partially started.
  • Geography/Art/Some History--Mapping the World with Art by Ellen McHenry. Covers the history of exploration in short segments with lots of drawing and hands-on stuff. You do not need to be good at drawing to do this course either.
  • http://www.naturalinquirer.org/middle-and-high-school-c-0.html This is an actual science journal format that is highly visual and geared to middle and high school students. They do the kinds of work that your son would need to be able to do if he wants to do field science, but they make it more learner friendly for this age range (and way more visual). It's all FREE. 
  • Problem-based learning units, such as the ones by Shelagh Gallagher. https://www.rfwp.com/series/problem-based-learning-pbl  These resources (and this entire site) are all products for gifted students, and they have a lot of homeschooler-friendly resources. These units are intended to give kids a launching pad to solve poorly structured problems (as in open-ended). It would be an excellent way to allow him to do something he's good at. Quote from your about his narrations: "He can also work with them creatively and does unique assignments etc... with them."
  • Old-fashioned unit studies (there are entire websites devoted to this). https://www.rfwp.com/book/amazing-ants-simple-sidewalk-science

I have used some, but not all of these resources. My kids need to use the box in out of the box ways, but being entirely out of the box has not been helpful for us.

I will say more on the cross-posted thread.

On 3/28/2021 at 7:59 PM, mcelx2hs said:

Oh my, definitely thinking I posted on the wrong board, lol. Yes, he is absolutely employable. He already works odd jobs now. He has absolutely no learning delay or disability at all, no social delays, no cognitive issues, no anything honestly, that would create a struggle for him. His sensory issues are very well managed now thanks to many years of therapy when he was younger.  He sees himself working in the field with animals in some capacity, just not sure what yet. Not interested in veterinary science, he wants more of a down n dirty, hands on conservation thing. 

No auditory issues other than he just doesn't retain well. I'm the exact same way. He's actually the opposite in that he is a big-picture thinker, who misses the details. So, he has no problem connecting dots, seeing the big picture, he just doesn't necessarily care about or remember the details. Ask him the date of the battle, or maybe the exact place etc... forget it. But ask him to tell you about the battle, and you'll get a wonderful narration, and probably a full re-enactment, LOL. 

You need to understand that there are kids, including some on this board, that are gifted and may not be employable. And kids who have been given a stamp of approval of "no learning issues" that are struggling in varying degrees with some of the very stuff you mention. And some who were declared free of learning issues only to find out later that better testing with more nuanced professionals turned up substantive issues that were hindering progress. My son's early testing showed a very different picture than his tutoring at 13 did. At 8, he looked to be on a path of no resistance, and maybe some ADHD meds someday. His "only issues" were sensory. His reading level was high school. Bwahaha...Even changing the WISC itself so that the non-verbal portion was truly non-verbal changed his ENTIRE profile!!! Lol! 

So, Peter Pan is being very nice, but she's trying to get you to realize that your son might have issues, and if he doesn't have issues, he's still going to be affected by what you are describing because it's not very standard. Then she's giving you multiple ways to consider how you want to approach that set of facts. Lots and lots of ways. 

Quote

No we haven't yet. I just let him write freely. We're planning to work more on writing this year. His writing itself is very good - rich content, solid, good spelling and decent grammar. Just when he sits to write he just sits and writes. He flat out told me, "I just don't care about that stuff" (formatting) when he's writing. He just cares more about his ideas. 

No, his narrations are excellent, and are original thought/word. Definitely not parroted back. He can also work with them creatively and does unique assignments etc... with them. As for why he does better with them, he said it's just because they're more interesting. They're not just a list of facts about dead people that he doesn't really care about. They're stories of cool stuff, lol. He also loves the humor in them. 

Yes, he had services for his SPD, and other evaluations done as we have a child with Autism, so they wanted to make sure. But as I said, he literally has NO problems - no learning disorder, no delays, nothing, outside of SPD. Just a different learning style (and suspected gifted intelligence since we all have it in my family), that's it. So again, I probably shouldn't have posted on this board, where people have actual "real" learning issues. I just saw the description where it said "different learning style"  and thought it might be okay. 

You'll get no shade from me about the important part about writing is getting thoughts out. I do think it needs to be shaped so that eventually he can shape it himself to get the details right (if he wants to do field science, he'll need to communicate in certain formats fluently), but I think people can be extraordinary writers and totally not be able to do the prompt-based, rubric-based writing pushed in school. I also think they can be excellent at prompt-based, rubric-based writing and not be able to write well at all. Various combinations of those profiles exist too. But he should continue to grow as a writer. 

My son has really appreciated multiple writing approaches--some that focus on meeting requirements for assignments, some on narrative/expository overlap (the Mindwing Concepts materials Peter Pan recommended are stellar), and some on the details of writing--phrases and clauses with books like https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/style-ten-lessons-in-clarity-and-grace_gregory-g-colomb_joseph-m-williams/250856/item/28158398/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwmIuDBhDXARIsAFITC_7fSQXNw3iXkQBFdufGefokgJHVtWKuIUIdq0EfXnNgF27c8en_YkgaAsd2EALw_wcB#idiq=28158398&edition=2724621. 

The bolded. Again, these profiles of quirks, learning issues, and supposed learning styles are not mutually exclusive, and neither is the reality of kids who are both exceptionally functional and dysfunctional at the exact same times, sometimes in the exact same areas of life. You are not on the wrong board, but you will be challenged on this because it's what many of us have lived and are living.

On 3/29/2021 at 6:56 AM, mcelx2hs said:

No, as honestly, nothing is glitching. 

Not in recent years, but just knowing what he reads and comprehends for school he's somewhere in the 1200-1300 range, his free read stuff is anywhere from 1000-1200. He likes Horrible History for what they are, but not out of necessity. 

On the glitching, I would challenge you to look at some of what Peter Pan has posted and re-answer that question for yourself without going back to the testing he had a long time ago.

For instance, if his testing years ago showed a probable gifted profile, why isn't he reading at a much higher level? That is not a learning style problem. My son's lexile level stalled precisely where your son's did. He was reading at that lexile level in mid-elementary and got STUCK there. You would not believe what it took to find the reason for that or what hell he caught because people said he had no reason but his own personal habits to blame. When he got the testing and intervention he needed, it was rocket fuel, and he enjoys ALL of his academics more, including dry stuff without pictures. He's able to learn from ANYTHING now. So, you are perfectly free to assume this is a preference, but realize that when you do, you might be missing something. If not missing something, then continuing to enable a pattern that may or may not benefit him later in life. 

A STEM career, especially these days, requires a lot more of a well-rounded student than years ago. I will tell you that STEM careers are even more demanding than they used to be. My DH has a lot of STEM schooling under his belt, and if he had to go back to do it over, he might not get into the programs he's already done. Things are changing, and they change fast. He's very, very hands-on (not really VSL), and he's excellent at what he does, but he would need to be "more" to get into a program now. Your son likes field science--that's seriously demanding.

21 hours ago, mcelx2hs said:

Haha, yup. As much as he likes living books, he doesn't mind reading the Kingfisher Encyclopedia for history because it has..... PICTURES! 🙂 Plus, even though it's "facty" it's really short and sweet (a couple pages compared to 10-12 pages of a history narrative).  I was just having him read out of Kingfisher to supplement the spine. But I'm thinking now maybe I should make KF the spine - read, narrate, watch some Crash Course or Curiosity Stream videos and voila? Add a historical FICTION in on the side? 

This is valid, but you need to go through PeterPan's question and see if it's best for this kid with the goals he has and you have.

BTW, the encyclopedic books thing was my son to a T, and he has a MAJOR expressive language disorder that was not caught until he was 13. At the same time it was finally caught, again, he'd been stalled at the same lexile level as your son for several years and yet had ceiling scores in language on the WISC and very good scores on nearly all language testing. PeterPan isn't kidding about using the critical thinking triangle and the narrative language stuff to check your son's "style." He was also working for neighbors for pay and laying $$$ flooring throughout the upstairs of my house with barebones supervision. People think we're nuts when we talk about learning issues because they don't see it.

5 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Don't look at it and be all prescriptive like oh this is the list and if I can't do that then nothing fits. There's a lot of INSPIRATION there. I'm also reading 180 Days by Gallagher and Kittle right now and it's another good one with ideas and reminders about focusing on what is important. Take the parts that work for you and inspire you. 

materials that can work + a sense of why you're using them (goals) that drives how you use them

Yes you're landing on methods WTM fleshes out and will get some ideas. I have the 1st edition and I think the 3rd edition. There were changes, so I lose track of what is suggested in each version. It may have been 1st edition that was so keen on Kingfisher, and I don't remember if 3rd edition suggests it or goes a totally different direction. But the ideas will be there.

It's very seldom you get boxed curriculum that fits asynchronous, creative kids. Oak Meadow comes really close. At some point practicality may win out over ideals. Or you may decide to find a simplified, practical way of approaching the Kingfisher + supplements. Definitely it could work. You'll just have to find your vision for how. But now you know why I had these really basic plans with dd like response journals, lol. 

So see what you learn and what inspires you. I still don't feel like I have a very great sense of where your ds' thought process is and what he does with his reading and what questions he asks. I think that's something to watch for 

https://mindwingconcepts.com/pages/methodology  I'll refer you to this one more time, because I'm a lazy old cuss. This link has graphics that show the clear connection between narrative and expository writing. It's stuff you already know (being an awesome writer), but I'm suggesting you think analytically in terms of your ds and where he's at with those thought processes, which of those structures he can do comfortably, and how that impacts what he can do with the materials you're considering using. 

Yes, yes, yes.

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kbutton

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4 minutes ago, kbutton said:

No auditory issues other than he just doesn't retain well. I'm the exact same way. He's actually the opposite in that he is a big-picture thinker, who misses the details. So, he has no problem connecting dots, seeing the big picture, he just doesn't necessarily care about or remember the details. Ask him the date of the battle, or maybe the exact place etc... forget it. But ask him to tell you about the battle, and you'll get a wonderful narration, and probably a full re-enactment, LOL. 

This is actually your quote, @mcelx2hs, but I copied it from my quote of you, so it's showing up as me.

I am like your son in the ways bolded above. I think I have auditory processing issues and that if I'd had intervention when I was young, I would be less dependent on non-audible input to learn. I do enjoy auditory stuff now, but I don't learn from it as thoroughly as when I read, and it's still a pretty dramatic difference. But now that I am older and have the big picture for lots and lots of things under my belt, I can take in more from auditory means. But it still sucks to be compensating vs. thriving with that medium.

Big-picture thinking is not incompatible with details, but to succeed in life, he's going to have to handle details, especially in STEM. Big picture thinking should be seen as a super power that lets you assimilate the gist of idea quickly so that you know what to do with details. It should be seeing the forest for the trees.

As a function of personality (as in Meyers-Briggs stuff), it's one of those functions that takes time to develop and become calibrated, but you develop and calibrate it by doing analysis, connecting ideas across subjects, etc. PeterPan has given some excellent suggestions to do that.

I struggled in high school to ask good questions because I was often missing some big picture piece, not a detail piece, so much so that I was often "tutoring" students during study hall that were getting worse grades than me, but I was picking up the things from them that I had missed, lol! Again, part is likely an auditory processing piece, but I would be getting A's and feeling utterly lost; they would be getting C's and feel utterly lost. After "helping" them, I would be far less lost. But I could not have asked a question in class or of those students because I never knew what I was missing--just that I was missing something.

If your DS has those issues, I think you should dig in and find out what they are. I have big-time imposter syndrome as a result of being gifted but having these struggles. I don't think I would've tripped any serious learning tests other than maybe auditory processing, but I can tell you that I am and have always been a gifted underachiever while also being a multi-potentiate. It's frustrating. 

Although, I will say that I remember details if the big picture is in place, and I have to WORK WITH those ideas to solve a problem, take notes, teach it someone, interact deeply with it, etc. 

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2 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Or look for an SLP who specializes in literacy and make sure they have detailed testing for narrative language, etc. etc. Or look for an SLP who specializes in expressive language in autism. They are uncommon, so you'd want to make sure what testing they owned and could provide. You'd be amazed how many practices (and schools) don't even OWN the testing our kids need. So the issues don't get identified because they literally don't even own the tests. And you know how that is... If they don't do the test, the problem doesn't exist, right?

QFT

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Hey @mcelx2hs I will go through and delete all my responses. I was enjoying exploring your interest in VSL strengths and have several books coming from the library, so if you want to talk through that prism in a new thread, you're welcome to.

I'm sure you will work through these issues as you go through the year and find great solutions. 

Edited by PeterPan
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13 hours ago, mcelx2hs said:

I've worked professionally with kids with LDs. I've been doing this for 15 years now - working with EXCEPTIONAL experts in their field, professionally and personally. I've read the books, I've done the screeners. No, I'm not just going by "old info". I am constantly re-evaluating. 

As for why he isn't reading higher, because that's isn't where his interest lies. Can he read higher? Absolutely. But I answered based on what he spends his time reading. Despite what his IQ may or may not be, he's still a 13 year old boy and he/I both choose material that reflects that, especially when it's a subject (history) that isn't interesting. I have a gifted IQ - I can read anything you throw at me, but do I like to? Nope. So, I read easier stuff, because it's what I enjoy. Doesn't mean I have a learning disorder. 

At any rate, my initial suspicion was correct, this was most definitely the wrong board to post on, because you guys can't see past your own lenses, which I get, as I said, sadly, I've done it to others, too. Because it is hard to know sometimes who truly has the experience to "know" and who doesn't, or who's just in denial. Anyways, again, while I can appreciate where you're coming from, and what you're trying to do, and there has been some great advice, I won't be replying further, because my suspicions are you're just going to stay stuck on this and try and tell me why I'm wrong and you know more than I do about my own child. 

The first two paragraphs would've been nice to know at the outset. You do realize that you didn't tell us the parts I Ieft in the quote, right? You realize you can fix that misunderstanding without additionally insulting us, right? 

Third paragraph--you do realize that PeterPan was super nice about giving you lots of good suggestions from her experience with an out-of-the-box learner, and that I led with answers that assumed you were correct before I gave you the learning problems talk, right? This thread is not devoid of the answers you specifically asked for if you care to look. 

But keep saying we're stuck rather than telling us critical information about your background up front. It is hard to know where others are, but you did get answers that were genuinely giving you both sides--the out of the box part and the potential disability part (sometimes the only difference between a difference and a disability is how much it sucks). We would not be keeping your best interest in mind if we didn't give you both perspectives, but sure, we're the ones who are stuck. 

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