Writing with lighter grammer for "3rd" grade

[countrymum]

My daughter is using MFW language lessons for today 3 this year. Last year she did level 2 (She's using it a grade ahead. I don't consider her a grade ahead though. It's just this curriculum.). I am looking to add in more writing for next year. She will be in 8 and in "3rd" grade in the fall. I don't think I want something as formulaic as Institute for Excellence in writing. I have looked at and wondered about the masterboooks writing strands (but I have the older ones, and Grandmama will do them with her about 1x a week starting soon. Are they really that different?) I have also looked at WriteShop. I am open to all ideas.

My goals:

I want her to write good paragraphs and perhaps a short report.

I am interested in both academic and creative writing. 

I want grammer included and applied to writing.

[Lori D.]

Just a quick FYI: academic writing is a late middle school/high school skill and goal, and unless you have an extremely advanced child, that type of writing is not developmentally appropriate until those older ages.

Teaching Writing Through Guided Analysis (formerly called Treasured Conversations)
gr. 3-5; 1-year program. Writing and Grammar are integrated, with Grammar in context of Writing. Guides the student from strong sentences into paragraph structure. Lessons incorporate scaffolded support (i.e., parent guided, with "script" embedded in the lesson). See samples

Writing Tales
level 1 = gr. 3/4
level 2 = gr. 4/5
Each is a 1-year program. Writing and Grammar are integrated, with Grammar in context of Writing. See samples

For creative writing, you might consider just interspersing some fun ideas with whatever you go with as your "spine" writing program. So maybe every Friday is "fun Friday" and she gets to do creative writing that she enjoys.

[countrymum]

I am doing withTeaching Writing Through Guided Analysis with my 5th grade son next year. I haven't gotten it printed yet. Would you do it with 2 kids 22 months apart?

Ok by academic i mean non fiction. Like reports ectra...

[SilverMoon]

Writing Tales level 1 would be a good first writing book for 3rd grade. It's not formulaic and it does include some light grammar. It works on the skills needed for writing "reports" and such but doesn't teach those types of writing. It uses rewrites of fables, fairy tales, etc for working on those skills. 

[Ellie]

21 hours ago, countrymum said:

My daughter is using MFW language lessons for today 3 this year. Last year she did level 2 (She's using it a grade ahead. I don't consider her a grade ahead though. It's just this curriculum.). I am looking to add in more writing for next year. She will be in 8 and in "3rd" grade in the fall. I don't think I want something as formulaic as Institute for Excellence in writing. I have looked at and wondered about the masterboooks writing strands (but I have the older ones, and Grandmama will do them with her about 1x a week starting soon. Are they really that different?) I have also looked at WriteShop. I am open to all ideas.

My goals:

I want her to write good paragraphs and perhaps a short report.

I am interested in both academic and creative writing. 

I want grammar included and applied to writing.

I prefer the original Writing Strands, not the way that MasterBooks has rewritten them. My Father's World's version is almost unchanged from the original, and I recommend it highly. Also, you can't really do a Writing Strands lesson one time a week. Most of the assignments are to be done a little bit each day. Since each level of Writing Strands is approximately a semester's worth of writing instruction, doing one lesson a day until a unit is completed, then doing grammar and reading, then doing the next unit, usually works better.

Writing Strands doesn't start out by teaching children how to write paragraphs. It teaches them how to write. When they know how to write, then they learn to put what they have written into paragraphs. And Writing Strands does *all* the different kinds, or strands, of writing. Children can't write a report until they know how to write; I would not expect an 8yo child to write a report, nor a 9yo. Maybe a 10yo.

The author of Writing Strands did not believe it was important to study grammar. He and his wife were both English professors, and their ds earned an degree in poetry, so there's that. 🙂 I agree with them that young children don't need to study grammar; but for those who do, there's Easy Grammar does have a third-grade level.

[countrymum]

I know writing strands should be used more often. 1x a week is what we can do with grandmama who has successfully taught it 5 times already;)

I am looking to do stuff to augment it. I am just not sure that language lessons for today is what I want for this child. It is what I have used for a different child.

I just remembered that I have cottage press primer 2. Anyone have any thoughts on it? Is it any more than language lessons for today? Does nobody like writeshop? I glanced at writing tales. It may work too. I don't want a lot of grammer now. Hitting it in middle school with analytic grammer is my plan. Also her spanish has some as needed.

[countrymum]

Another thought, this child really dislikes narration. She will do it and has gotten better at it this year, but she doesn't like it. She does like to write, though she doesn't write alot. 

Edited March 14, 2021 by countrymum

[Ellie]

2 hours ago, countrymum said:

I am looking to do stuff to augment it. I am just not sure that language lessons for today is what I want for this child. It is what I have used for a different child.

Does nobody like writeshop?

See, to me, the writing lesson is the writing lesson; and what the children learn in their writing lesson is used in other subjects like history and science, and writing letters to grandparents or pen pals. It isn't more writing instruction.

I have friends who love WriteShop, but when I reviewed it, I thought it was the worst writing instruction ever. It made me appreciate Writing Strands ever so much more.

[Lori D.]

44 minutes ago, Ellie said:

... I have friends who love WriteShop, but when I reviewed it, I thought it was the worst writing instruction ever....

lol -- and that was my reaction to Writing Strands...😂 Totally NOT a fit for us. But just like with Math and all the other subjects -- many ways of teaching/learning, so there's something sure to be a fit for every type of learner. 😉 

[Not_a_Number]

16 hours ago, Ellie said:

I have friends who love WriteShop, but when I reviewed it, I thought it was the worst writing instruction ever. It made me appreciate Writing Strands ever so much more.

 

16 hours ago, Lori D. said:

lol -- and that was my reaction to Writing Strands...😂 Totally NOT a fit for us. But just like with Math and all the other subjects -- many ways of teaching/learning, so there's something sure to be a fit for every type of learner. 😉 

Now I kind of want to hear both negative reviews, lol! 

[Lori D.]

2 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

... Now I kind of want to hear both negative reviews, lol! 

I should clarify -- it's not a negative review of the program itself from me -- just a negative fit of the teaching style and perspective for my family.

You can look at the samples from the Look Inside option -- and if you click on "surprise me 3-4 times, you'll get additional views of more inside pages. Then you can decide for yourself if that style of program is a fit for your family or not. 

[Not_a_Number]

1 hour ago, Lori D. said:

I should clarify -- it's not a negative review of the program itself from me -- just a negative fit of the teaching style and perspective for my family.

You can look at the samples from the Look Inside option -- and if you click on "surprise me 3-4 times, you'll get additional views of more inside pages. Then you can decide for yourself if that style of program is a fit for your family or not. 

This one doesn't seem to have a Look Inside option 🙂 . I was just curious about your personal take. I learn a lot from those. 

[Lori D.]

50 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

This one doesn't seem to have a Look Inside option ...

That is SOOO weird! I literally just looked inside on that version on Amazon, and linked it -- and now it no longer has the "look inside" option... ????

The one we tried was the old edition (not the newer Master Books edition). (We only got through a few weeks of level 3 before dropping it for other things, so that's the only level I'm familiar with.) You can still see the table of contents and 1 page at Rainbow Resource. Okay, try here for a sample of level 6 -- and this is very similar in format, style, tone and types of exercises as level 3, just for older students.
 

50 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I was just curious about your personal take...

Very step by step and incremental, and it did cover what you needed.

But... very dry. And *I* balked at the paternalistic tone -- I couldn't imagine handing that to my DSs. Also, dull writing assignments. And the way it had the students log things (your best sentence, something to work on, etc.) at the end of each week was just a complete no-go for my writing phobic kids.

That part reminded me a lot of the Spelling program, Tricks of the Trade, which has students create an individualized notebook of their spelling errors, see a pattern to the errors, learn the correct spelling for that pattern, move on. Which is great for students who think in that way, but it was not either of my DSs.

It also reminded me of Saxon Math, but for writing, lol.

And really, I do think that's not such a strange stretch for a comparison, as many people who learned well from Saxon also did fine with Writing Strands, which was one of the very few non-public school materials out there in the 1990s for homeschoolers. So I can see why if your choice was a school textbook or Writing Strands (created FOR early homeschoolers), then it would look pretty exciting.

And while Writing Strands is still going to be a great fit for some (it is a no-frills, step-by-step, written to the student program), now there are at least a dozen solid and well-known writing programs out there that homeschoolers can choose from, that each has a different method and perspective for approaching writing, so there's bound to be something out there to fit most homeschoolers.

Edited March 15, 2021 by Lori D.

[Not_a_Number]

38 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

That is SOOO weird! I literally just looked inside on that version on Amazon, and linked it -- and now it no longer has the "look inside" option... ????

The one we tried was the old edition (not the newer Master Books edition). (We only got through a few weeks of level 3 before dropping it for other things, so that's the only level I'm familiar with.) You can still see the table of contents and 1 page at Rainbow Resource. Okay, try here for a sample of level 6 -- and this is very similar in format, style, tone and types of exercises as level 3, just for older students.
 

Very step by step and incremental, and it did cover what you needed.

But... very dry. And *I* balked at the paternalistic tone -- I couldn't imagine handing that to my DSs. Also, dull writing assignments. And the way it had the students log things (your best sentence, something to work on, etc.) at the end of each week was just a complete no-go for my writing phobic kids.

That part reminded me a lot of the Spelling program, Tricks of the Trade, which has students create an individualized notebook of their spelling errors, see a pattern to the errors, learn the correct spelling for that pattern, move on. Which is great for students who think in that way, but it was not either of my DSs.

It also reminded me of Saxon Math, but for writing, lol.

And really, I do think that's not such a strange stretch for a comparison, as many people who learned well from Saxon also did fine with Writing Strands, which was one of the very few non-public school materials out there in the 1990s for homeschoolers. So I can see why if your choice was a school textbook or Writing Strands (created FOR early homeschoolers), then it would look pretty exciting.

And while Writing Strands is still going to be a great fit for some (it is a no-frills, step-by-step, written to the student program), now there are at least a dozen solid and well-known writing programs out there that homeschoolers can choose from, that each has a different method and perspective for approaching writing, so there's bound to be something out there to fit most homeschoolers.

Ah, interesting, thank you! I don't mind it, actually. Now Saxon I really don't like, but then I have much stronger opinions on math instruction than I do on writing instruction. And unlike Saxon this seems a lot less rote and procedural. I see what you mean about the tone, though. 

Of course, I come from a perspective of not having writing-phobic kids! have two kids who rather enjoy getting stuff down on paper when the fancy strikes them, and they probably wouldn't mind logging things. 

Thanks so much for sharing your perspective! 

[countrymum]

I have been thinking about this child more. She strongly dislikes narrating and world rather make up her own story. She is artsy and creative. She just wrote a 1 page story today about a dog. This amount of output is new, but not suprising to me. I want to encourage her creativity. Does this help anything? Any different recommendations or thoughts? What about BJU? Perhaps more grammar, but it is more creative writing....She likes her own ideas not someone elses....

 

Now my son just wrote a good solid long paragraph changing a fable today, but they 2 are very different students.....

[Lori D.]

3 hours ago, countrymum said:

.. She strongly dislikes narrating and world rather make up her own story. She is artsy and creative....  I want to encourage her creativity. Does this help anything? Any different recommendations or thoughts? What about BJU? Perhaps more grammar, but it is more creative writing....She likes her own ideas not someone else's.....

BJU, Abeka, etc. are going to be pretty traditional/formal textbook/workbook-based instruction for writing.

Then for this year/this summer, you'll probably want a delicate balance of something to help improve writing (combining sentences, paragraph structure) + proof-editing practice, and lots of opportunities for her to do her creative writing with a variety of interesting writing assignments -- journalism (news/feature stories), blog entries, short stories, journal writing from a prompt, letters, posters, book (or movie) reviews, etc.


I'm teaching a "foundations in high school" writing course online to my homeschool group's co-op this year, and I have TWO students who are very strongly interested in creative writing. Where I can, I've allowed them to do the assignment, but get to invent the content (like, for the "how to" (process) essay, or the descriptive essay, etc.) However some of the assignments have to stick to reality and facts (informational essay with citations, argumentative essay from a prompt). One student is a bit older, and she is able to make the jump in exploring the different types of essays we need to accomplish over the course of the year. The other student is younger, and he is struggling whenever the assignment can't be about his invented creative writing ideas. 

All that to say, your DD's natural writing "bent" is not totally uncommon. I am finding that what helps with these older students is a gentle shepherding of "here's what the structure needs to include and in that order, but let's see where the content of those sentences can be creative writing based." So if over the next few years, you can do a gentle balance of working your DD into solid sentence structure, a variety of sentence types, solid paragraph structure, ability to proof-edit, and eventually in late middle school, move into how to come up with an "opinion" or "claim" and then build an argument of support for it, I think she'll be fine.

She just is going to need to be able to express herself creatively in assignments. For example, instead of always a factual history report, perhaps write a journal in the voice of a person living in those times. Or dress in the clothing of the time and give a dramatic oral presentation. Lots of ways to go about it... 😉 

Edited March 16, 2021 by Lori D.

[My4arrows]

My 8 year old is quite creative with his writing, often writing stories and such on his own.   We have postponed formal writing and he just requested using WriteShop.  I have been using it with an older child and he loved the look of it.  The projects have been enjoyable for him and it does focus on creative writing.  We modify where needed to suit us better.  I wouldn't say that it teachers formatting paragraphs or sentences, but does help guide in writing creatively.  

[jboo]

On 3/12/2021 at 7:34 PM, countrymum said:

I am doing withTeaching Writing Through Guided Analysis with my 5th grade son next year. I haven't gotten it printed yet. Would you do it with 2 kids 22 months apart?

Ok by academic i mean non fiction. Like reports ectra...

Yes; I am doing Teaching Writing Through Guided Analysis this way with my two somewhat younger, fairly advanced kids (4th and 2nd) and it is working really well. Younger one has required more explanations, scaffolding, time with writing, etc. but it's pretty doable.

[countrymum]

8 hours ago, Lori D. said:

BJU, Abeka, etc. are going to be pretty traditional/formal textbook/workbook-based instruction for writing.

Then for this year/this summer, you'll probably want a delicate balance of something to help improve writing (combining sentences, paragraph structure) + proof-editing practice, and lots of opportunities for her to do her creative writing with a variety of interesting writing assignments -- journalism (news/feature stories), blog entries, short stories, journal writing from a prompt, letters, posters, book (or movie) reviews, etc.


I'm teaching a "foundations in high school" writing course online to my homeschool group's co-op this year, and I have TWO students who are very strongly interested in creative writing. Where I can, I've allowed them to do the assignment, but get to invent the content (like, for the "how to" (process) essay, or the descriptive essay, etc.) However some of the assignments have to stick to reality and facts (informational essay with citations, argumentative essay from a prompt). One student is a bit older, and she is able to make the jump in exploring the different types of essays we need to accomplish over the course of the year. The other student is younger, and he is struggling whenever the assignment can't be about his invented creative writing ideas. 

All that to say, your DD's natural writing "bent" is not totally uncommon. I am finding that what helps with these older students is a gentle shepherding of "here's what the structure needs to include and in that order, but let's see where the content of those sentences can be creative writing based." So if over the next few years, you can do a gentle balance of working your DD into solid sentence structure, a variety of sentence types, solid paragraph structure, ability to proof-edit, and eventually in late middle school, move into how to come up with an "opinion" or "claim" and then build an argument of support for it, I think she'll be fine.

She just is going to need to be able to express herself creatively in assignments. For example, instead of always a factual history report, perhaps write a journal in the voice of a person living in those times. Or dress in the clothing of the time and give a dramatic oral presentation. Lots of ways to go about it... 😉 

Thanks for these ideas, Lori. I don't think that my own writing is all that great. I like grammar and can write a decent college paper, but I am pretty formulaic and unimaginative;) Thats why I was looking at WriteShop D. Do you have any ideas of resources to help me help her? I am not afraid to come up with my own curriculum, but writing is not my strong suit, so I'd at least like to borrow from others.

Thanks for the history report ideas. I can add some of those ideas to the world geography and cultures course I'm making for my kids for next year. Also, we don't homeschool over summer, instead we farm and garden.

And yes, I know that there are other students like her- I`m glad. Then, others can give ideas;)

[PeterPan]

9 hours ago, Lori D. said:

She just is going to need to be able to express herself creatively in assignments.

 

On 3/12/2021 at 7:23 PM, Lori D. said:

Writing Tales
level 1 = gr. 3/4
level 2 = gr. 4/5
Each is a 1-year program. Writing and Grammar are integrated, with Grammar in context of Writing. See samples

Just wanna plug Writing Tales as something we ADORED at that age, so highly recommend. I think we did WT2 in 3rd. Dd was sort of that ahead and behind, very creative ADHD person. Don't be afraid to use it out of level and do what fits.

For your trivia, https://mindwingconcepts.com/pages/methodology  a link showing the expository structures. Remember, you do not have to be WRITING these structures to be working on them!! Around, I forget maybe 5th?, we did a year with a book of 40 Debate Prompts. It's Scholastic, maybe $10, and it was GREAT.

You can also just kind of assign a once a week written narrative as being due if you want. I dn't remember right now if I did that or not (because I whacked my head sledding and am not fully there), but it's not a problem to do this. My dd often just wanted space to do her own thing, read her own thing, and then have a way to output and call it school. So I liked to use generic weekly assignments as a way to give her freedom to change up her sources and topics. 

We also worked through a basic workbook like Paragraph Writing Made Easy and began outlining using mindmapping software (Poplet, Inspiration, etc.) around 4th. Given that she's 3rd, you might just kind of keep it low key, in the "give me a nice narration about something you read/studied" once a week and see what she can do with that. Maybe some gentle prompts to hit those different categories of expository if you want. Maybe shaking it up and seeing if she'd like to do them in a more creative way.

https://www.teacherspayteachers.com/Product/11-Book-Projects-Book-Reports-BUNDLE-Genre-Posters-Story-Elements-Flip-Book-399580?utm_source=mrsrenz.com&utm_campaign=Blog%20-%20Projects%20Galore  These used to be free on her blog, but now you buy the Mrs. Renz Book Projects as a TPT file. They're WONDERFUL. Highly structured, very clear, room for creativity, and flexible enough to work with whatever she's into. 

Ok, so my favorite story is the year my dd spent writing recipes. Goodness knows what they were, because I think they were totally made up. But she spent a lot of time working on them!! And think about it. Expository structure #5 at the link I gave you is a sequence, and what is a recipe but a sequence? And structure #7 is persuasion and #1 description. How many of these structures would you expect to see in a cooking/food blog?

So it doesn't matter what the format is and the format can be very creative. She can start a food blog, make youtube videos on things that interest her, write recipe cards for her own unicorn family cookbook, anything, and she can be working on these expository structures. She can do the work *orally* and be working on expository structures. She can be doing them *collaboratively* via games and be working on them. Dixit, Story Dice, etc. Writing Tales has tons of games btw, so many happy memories. 

It goes very quickly, sigh. Have fun. 

[PeterPan]

PS. Have you seen my posts from of old on how my dd did WWS? Talk about not creative, not fun, hahaha. I had seen so many people complaining about it as torture and wanted her to have the good without sucking the life out of her. We waited till later (I think 7th for WWS1) and then did it at double pace. I would highlight the lessons to help her see the important parts, but it has so little attention to audience or WHY one is writing this that she had a moment where she just completely got STUCK. 

So I walked in and she's like I can't write it. I'm like fine, CHANNEL TRUMP. Remember, this was a number of years ago, so he was on the Apprentice. I'm like EXCORIATE THE DUDE, Tell everyone why he's FIRED! Hahaha. What a great moment. Then she could totally crank it out. 

So yes, some kids you're going to get there but with more creativity. My dd enjoyed the Anti-Coloring books, the daily writing prompts in the Jump-In teacher's manual, the Don't Forget to Write books, the poetry writing series from PHP etc. We were always balancing this need to move forward with schoolish writing with her need to be creative. 

Edited March 16, 2021 by PeterPan

[Lori D.]

9 hours ago, countrymum said:

... Also, we don't homeschool over summer, instead we farm and garden...

Oops! My bad! I've also been answering similar questions on these boards from a mom with a 5th grade DD who IS planning on homeschooling writing through the summer -- got the posts switched in my head, in answering that part. 😉

 

23 hours ago, countrymum said:

...She strongly dislikes narrating and world rather make up her own story. She is artsy and creative. She just wrote a 1 page story today about a dog...

So awesome! Maybe she'd like one of those special journals that have the top half of the page blank and the bottom lined, or lined page alternating with blank page, so she can start her own bound volume of stories. 😄 I'm also thinking that at some point (maybe later, in 4th/5th grade), she might enjoy creating a family newspaper or newsletter, or have a blog and write regular blog articles (it could be a restricted blog where only a very people who you send the password to could see it -- a few friends and family members).

9 hours ago, countrymum said:

... Thanks for the history report ideas. I can add some of those ideas to the world geography and cultures course I'm making for my kids for next year...

When DSs were in middle school, the year we substituted World Cultures/Geography for History was awesome. One of the things DSs did was to create 2, sometimes 3, pages a week to add to our own "atlas". Each page was one country. I printed out a small blank outline map for them to label a few key landmarks / cities, and they added a sticker of the flag, listed the capital, population, major language(s), major religion(s), and a few major products of that country, and then after reading about the country, wrote up a short paragraph of things that stood out to them about that country. That's way more than I would expect from a 3rd grader, but maybe spend a week per atlas page, adding just a little at a time might work...
 

9 hours ago, countrymum said:

... Thats why I was looking at WriteShop D. Do you have any ideas of resources to help me help her? I am not afraid to come up with my own curriculum, but writing is not my strong suit, so I'd at least like to borrow from others...

I'm not too familiar with WriteShop, but it looks like it has lots of variety of assignments, and done almost like activities, so that could be a great resource / great fit.

I also agree with previous posters about Writing Tales -- it's just enough structure to move her forward, but enough creativity to spark more of her own writing.

A few more possible resources for fun ideas:
- Journal Buddies -- all ages; free writing prompt ideas
- Book Reviews/Book Reports -- gr. 3 <-- maybe print off free forms like this, so she also can include her own artwork
- Comic Strip Writing Prompts -- gr. 3-5
- 50 Debate Prompts for Kids (Daley & Dahlie) -- gr. 5-8; free downloadable pdf

And if workbooks are okay, these can be fun practice of specific elements of writing as the 10-15 minute "formal writing" lesson, and then enjoy creative writing or writing projects of her choosing:
- Shell Education: 180 Days of Writing
- Evan Moore: Daily 6-Trait Writing
- Spectrum Writing Workbook
- Scholastic: Building Essential Writing Skills
- Scholastic Success with Writing

And while these are for grades 4-8, you might find some variety of assignments just skimming the "look inside" option:
- 100 Writing Lessons -- this is a compilation of excerpts from the old Scholastic 4-book series: Descriptive Writing, Narrative Writing, Expository Writing, Persuasive Writing -- lots of interesting ideas for assignments in these
- 50 Writing Lessons That Work!

Happy writing adventures! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[countrymum]

4 hours ago, Lori D. said:

So awesome! Maybe she'd like one of those special journals that have the top half of the page blank and the bottom lined, or lined page alternating with blank page, so she can start her own bound volume of stories. 😄 I'm also thinking that at some point (maybe later, in 4th/5th grade), she might enjoy creating a family newspaper or newsletter, or have a blog and write regular blog articles (it could be a restricted blog where only a very people who you send the password to could see it -- a few friends and family members).

When DSs were in middle school, the year we substituted World Cultures/Geography for History was awesome. One of the things DSs did was to create 2, sometimes 3, pages a week to add to our own "atlas". Each page was one country. I printed out a small blank outline map for them to label a few key landmarks / cities, and they added a sticker of the flag, listed the capital, population, major language(s), major religion(s), and a few major products of that country, and then after reading about the country, wrote up a short paragraph of things that stood out to them about that country. That's way more than I would expect from a 3rd grader, but maybe spend a week per atlas page, adding just a little at a time might work...

I have 1 of those journals; I think I'll try it 1x a week for her. Thanks for the idea.

I also like the atlas page it would be good for her and 5th grader. Perhaps I'll assign 1 per week. I think it'd be great. I just bought some uncle Josh outline maps. 5th grader burns out on writing really fast!

[Sarah0000]

I wonder if she'd like Writing and Rhetoric by Classical Academic Press?

It contains stories to read and discuss and lots of sentence play and light grammar. It's all integrated fairly well. There is a call to narrate but it's just the story that was just read and would be easy to skip. There is no practice of academic writing such as reports in the first few books, though I think that does come up at some point.