article about socializing, Covid, and "consent"

[ktgrok]

The article is about how the communication needed to discuss safer sex practices can lend some examples for how to talk to people/friends about safer socializing in the time of Covid. Sort of interesting, although I haven't read it all yet. (warning...adult topics mentioned)

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/07/08/886541838/starting-a-covid-19-social-bubble-how-safe-sex-communication-skills-can-help

[Tanaqui]

1 hour ago, happysmileylady said:

Yeah, I am not going to engage in those sorts of conversations lol.  I will answer any questions asked, but the idea that asking someone about using the bathroom at their house requires the same level of conversation as BDSM and polyamory is incredibly extreme to me.

"Hey, can I use your bathroom"

"No, sorry, I would rather you didn't, I am out of clorox."

I am not sure why it has to be more involved than that.  

 

That's the point. Because her friend asked *before* coming over, she was prompted to scrub a bathroom and make sure the route to the bathroom was clean. If her friend had waited to ask until she showed up, it would've been riskier. It's not that the conversation is more in-depth, it's that the person coming over remembered to ask in advance, before arriving at the house, if she'd be able to use the bathroom when she was there.

And maybe that person would've had to say "No, I'm not comfortable with that", in which case Friend would know *in advance* that the visit would have to be curtailed a little because she couldn't use the bathroom before leaving for home.

[Moonhawk]

7 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Riskier how?  Oh, shoot, I can't use the potty? " Ok, well, I gotta pee so 'hey kiddos 5 minutes and we are heading home, we got stuff to do!'"

I guess I don't understand why that is so hard or risky or comparable to polyamory lol.

 

I think the risk being referred to is how clean the bathroom is, and the walkway to get there. Since our private bathrooms are private, we may not be following the CDC guidelines in terms of cleanliness to prevent spread (slight hyperbole here, I am not saying that you need to). By giving the host advance notice that bathroom use may be requested, they were able to accommodate in advance instead of spraying with Clorox as the guest sits in the living room, crossing their legs, thinking of dry desert places instead of tall beautiful waterfalls. Or the "riskier" option of just using the bathroom as is.

(I don't have an opinion on the actual content since I haven't read the article yet)

Edited July 8, 2020 by Moonhawk

[Moonhawk]

Just now, happysmileylady said:

So, if the person needing to pee is concerned about the cleanliness of the bathroom.......maybe they shouldn't ask?  I mean, if they are concerned that asking about how clean the bathroom is is going to offend......just don't ask? Cut the playdate short and go pee at home?  "Hey I gotta go, we have some stuff to do at home, but I will give you a call next week about getting that book to you."

And in the case of the host....still.....I just don't see how "no, I ran out of clorox wipes yesterday" or whatever is so risky a response.  

... I think it is also a courtesy to ask if the host is comfortable with them, a possible carrier, using their bathroom and touching things in said bathroom. It's not just the guest at risk, it is also the host. By simply asking of time both know what's going on before they get there. 

And I don't think anyone is saying that the host possibly responding "no, I ran our of clorox wipes yesterday" would be a risky response. 

Again, I haven't read the article, but I don't see what part of what's being discussed in the thread is controversial or difficult. Maybe the article wants you to lay out "safe words" and definitions of "bases" and that's what is generating this type of response?, but again the example in the thread didn't seem outlandish to me. 

[JustEm]

i read the article and I just don't see the connection between communication with a possible sex partner and communication about guests coming over. I mean someone suggests making a list of what people are or aren't comfortable with like with S&M, that seems like complete overkill.  It just seems like they're trying to over complicate social gatherings.  But I guess I expect the people I would be inviting over during this to already know me well enough to know my level of caution during all of this.  And really everyone I have invited over seems to know where I'm at without needing to talk about it, since the people I expected to decline have declined.  And the people more in line with my level of comfort have come over no questions asked.  

[ktgrok]

13 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

So, if the person needing to pee is concerned about the cleanliness of the bathroom.......maybe they shouldn't ask?  I mean, if they are concerned that asking about how clean the bathroom is is going to offend......just don't ask? Cut the playdate short and go pee at home?  "Hey I gotta go, we have some stuff to do at home, but I will give you a call next week about getting that book to you."

And in the case of the host....still.....I just don't see how "no, I ran out of clorox wipes yesterday" or whatever is so risky a response.  

That's fine too, the equivalent of thinking, 'I don't want to have a conversation about condoms with this guy, or safe sex, I'm just going to go straight home rather than sleep with him." 

The point is, figure out what your safety concerns are ahead of time (maybe you don't care about the bathroom situation, but if you do, it makes sense to ask ahead of time). That waiting until in the moment and about to wet your pants, when you might just not bother to ask in your rush to use the potty. 

To think about if you are okay going outside only, inside, sharing food, wearing masks, not wearing masks, etc ahead of time and communicate it before you are in the situation and feel trapped or end up in some unexpected situation. 

Sort of like the poster who had a guy in her house who wasn't wearing a mask while repairing something. It would have been easier to have the conversation and ask the company ahead of time what the mask policy is for the workers, than to be stuck with him in the house when she realizes the problem. 

[ktgrok]

It was just one way to explain the idea of discussing boundaries, safety, and protection in an up front way. 

 

[ktgrok]

6 minutes ago, hjffkj said:

It just seems like they're trying to over complicate social gatherings.  But I guess I expect the people I would be inviting over during this to already know me well enough to know my level of caution during all of this.  And really everyone I have invited over seems to know where I'm at without needing to talk about it, since the people I expected to decline have declined.  And the people more in line with my level of comfort have come over no questions asked.  

The virus has complicated social gatherings, not the communication. The communication is trying to clarify. If someone invites me over, I need to know if they mean indoors or outdoors only. are we wearing masks? Are the kids? Bring our own snacks? Have they been out without a mask during this, or in any high exposure places?

I have a friend we MIGHT include in our "quaranteam" and those are the things we are discussing, for sure. 

[Moonhawk]

2 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

The article is about using conversation skills that people who engage in BDSM, polyamory, and other sex practices that are generally "atypical" use when taking about what partners are comfortable with, when to stop, what is enjoyable and what isn't....that sort of stuff.   And is compares conversations regarding associating with others during covid....such as whether or not a guest can use the bathroom or whether or not friends are hanging out with other friends, with the conversations regarding those "atypical" or "extreme" sexual practices.

 

LOL I just finished reading it and there are some gems for sure.

""I wish I had more polyamorous friends to help me navigate that situation," says Park, the physician and STI expert."

It does feel a bit of a stretch, but people see parallels with what they do all the time. Give me 2 minutes and I can link the coronavirus and social distancing to similarities in the music industry or the type industry, I'm sure. 

The basic takeaway from the article though is sound: as we start to go out and interact with more people, we need to be clear if we have any musts or must-nots while we are interacting. I will not interact with someone who refuses to mask and who has been going out and about without any "protection" and to multiple places without need. By knowing my "boundaries" and being able to communicate it clearly, it makes it easier to know "do what with who."

I guess if you are uncomfortable with the analogy it seems ridiculous, but I don't see anything in the actual article that was actually ridiculous. No safe words, which was slightly disappointing. (lol...)

[JustEm]

3 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

The virus has complicated social gatherings, not the communication. The communication is trying to clarify. If someone invites me over, I need to know if they mean indoors or outdoors only. are we wearing masks? Are the kids? Bring our own snacks? Have they been out without a mask during this, or in any high exposure places?

I have a friend we MIGHT include in our "quaranteam" and those are the things we are discussing, for sure. 

 

Yes, and none of those things are comparable to a safe sex talk imo.  Or maybe on the surface there are similarities.  But to center an article around it seems like over-complicating things.  

I can see how already having the communication skills one needs if they are into certain kinks can help them with communicating their needs during social gatherings due to covid19.   But that doesn't mean using it as a comparison is going to be helpful for the vast majority of people.

 

[Moonhawk]

4 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

I guess I just find it weird that there's a need to reference extreme sexual examples to show people how to say "no, I am not comfortable with that."

I mean that's really what it is, isn't it?  "I am not comfortable doing X."  So if a person isn't comfortable doing X.......don't?   

I don't think we are disagreeing (my original post was a clarification, I didn't have an opinion at that point).

I agree there wasn't a "need" to reference the extreme sexual examples, but it may be helpful to some who have been trying to figure out if it's okay/how to talk about masks with people they are going to see soon. 

It's true, if you aren't comfortable doing X, don't do it.

The article is simply advocating that you talk about X beforehand so that your plans aren't ruined down the line when it becomes clear others have different expectations. 

[Tanaqui]

I have so many questions, happysmileylady, starting with "why do you think everybody lives a mere 5 minutes from all their friends" and "why do you think everybody can simply 'hold it' until they get home" and then moving to "why do you think that only one party might be concerned about the safety of this bathroom", but what I'm really burning to know is why you think it's so wrong to ask in advance, before you visit, "Will it be all right if I use your bathroom while I'm there?"

Edited July 8, 2020 by Tanaqui

[Joker]

I didn’t read the article but I did have an interesting encounter at the hospital last week. I was waiting on the elevator and when it opened there was already someone in it. It didn’t feel right to just step in, so I asked her if it was OK for me to share it with her. She was awesome and replied, “As long as you don’t kiss on me!”. She thanked me for asking after I got in and I remarked how we’re living in weird times. 

[Tanaqui]

Quote

What I am confused about is why asking such a question requires BDSM level conversation skills.

 

Because asking that question IS using BDSM level conversational skills. That question = BDSM level conversational skills.

Quote

Boom done.  Question asked.  No special wording.  No dancing around.  Just ask.  

 

Yup, those are the BDSM level conversational skills we're talking about here. I don't know where you got the idea that this involved "special wording" or "dancing around".

Edited July 8, 2020 by Tanaqui

[marbel]

53 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

<snip>

If I don't want people in my house using my bathroom....I just don't invite them?   I am not sure why that requires BDSM level conversation skills?

<snip>

No kidding!  The stuff about the bathroom blows my mind!

If I am inviting someone into my home, pandemic or not, I am going to make damn sure the bathroom is clean and available for use. If that includes having extra clorox wipes or whatever so the guest can feel comfortable using my bathroom, I will get that. If I am not going to be comfortable having someone use my bathroom, I'm not inviting them over. Or, when I am inviting them, I say "let's meet in the back yard, I am not comfortable with guests in the house yet." And then they know not to ask to use the bathroom.  

That is just hospitality 101 right there. You do what you can to make your guest feel comfortable.  If you can't be comfortable with the guest, don't invite them.

Holy cow, talk about complicating things. This is why people used to teach etiquette, which is not about stupid stiff arbitrary rules, but about how to make guests feel comfortable. 

ETA: I see while I was reading and typing madly, others addressed this as well. I didn't really believe I had had an original thought. 😄

Edited July 8, 2020 by marbel

[Shoeless]

Do people not clean the bathroom before guests come over?!  Because I always cleaned the bathroom before guests arrived in pre-covid times.  There would be no debate about this at my house. The bathroom is clean. I'd probably put out a roll of paper towels, so people don't have to debate on using a towel.  But they could use the regular towels too, because I put out clean ones before a guest comes over. 

Do people not do this anymore???

[marbel]

1 minute ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

<snip>

But in most cases where people are choosing not to have people in their houses, it's not because the bathroom is dirty.  It's because COVID spreads more inside.  

But if people are not having anyone in their houses to avoid covid, then bathroom use is not an issue anyway. 

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, hjffkj said:

 

Yes, and none of those things are comparable to a safe sex talk imo.  Or maybe on the surface there are similarities.  But to center an article around it seems like over-complicating things.  

I can see how already having the communication skills one needs if they are into certain kinks can help them with communicating their needs during social gatherings due to covid19.   But that doesn't mean using it as a comparison is going to be helpful for the vast majority of people.

 

If it isn't a helpful analogy for you, skip it 🙂 People often speak in sports analogies, and if you don't play sports, those are unlikely to be helpful. In this case, if safer sex conversations are not familiar to you, this analogy won't be helpful. That's okay, and it doesn't make it a bad analogy, just one that doesn't work for you. 

But it IS comparable to safe sex talks, in the sense of precautions taken, symptoms, medical history, etc being discussed. 

1 hour ago, kdsuomi said:

 

This is where I am. If you aren't comfortable with someone using your bathroom, why in the world are you inviting him over to your house?

Many people are having socially distanced get togethers outside, no bathrooms, no indoors. Or are setting aside one bathroom for guests, but not others, etc. 

1 hour ago, happysmileylady said:

If that's your burning question, then you have missed my entire point.

What I am confused about is why asking such a question requires BDSM level conversation skills.

 

"Hey, while I am out visiting......I can use the potty right?"

 

Boom done.  Question asked.  No special wording.  No dancing around.  Just ask.  

That IS BDSM level conversation. 

3 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

Do people not clean the bathroom before guests come over?!  Because I always cleaned the bathroom before guests arrived in pre-covid times.  There would be no debate about this at my house. The bathroom is clean. I'd probably put out a roll of paper towels, so people don't have to debate on using a towel.  But they could use the regular towels too, because I put out clean ones before a guest comes over. 

Do people not do this anymore???

Of course we do, but in COVID times people may want it to have been disinfected, all surfaces, and not used at all since then. If I was having a friend over before all this, I'd clean th bathroom, but not necessarily bleach all the doorknobs, etc. And I'd let the kids use it still, before and while people are over, without disinfecting it all over again. During Covid times people may not be okay with that. We know it can be in feces, and droplets carrying the virus can get into the air and onto surfaces after flushing, so ideally everything is disinfected properly AND no one has used it for a period of time before another person does. 

[marbel]

1 hour ago, happysmileylady said:

I guess I just find it weird that there's a need to reference extreme sexual examples to show people how to say "no, I am not comfortable with that."

I mean that's really what it is, isn't it?  "I am not comfortable doing X."  So if a person isn't comfortable doing X.......don't?   

'Cause someone at NPR thought they were really clever, getting to reference BDSM, polyamory, etc., in an article related to covid. 

It's just normal straightforward communication, setting expectations among guests and hosts.  

 

...anticipating reading the words "pearl clutching" any second now.... 😄

Edited July 9, 2020 by marbel

[Shoeless]

1 minute ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

I'm not sure what that has to do with this? 

In my case, where I said that the first floor bathroom likely had COVID, that bathroom is only accessible through a room where we're dong aerosolizing medical procedures pretty much all day.  So, I could have cleaned it 20 minutes earlier.

But in most cases where people are choosing not to have people in their houses, it's not because the bathroom is dirty.  It's because COVID spreads more inside.  

 

Because it was mentioned upthread about how it's good to ask in advance to ask if bathroom use is ok, because the host would need to clean in advance, and if you waited to ask when you arrived, it would be riskier. 

I understand it spreads easier inside, but everyone isn't hanging out together in the bathroom for hours. We're talking about a couple of minutes of solo-time in a bathroom. Open the window or turn on the fan and whatever aerosoles are there will be removed. 

[ktgrok]

7 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

"Hey, can I use your potty?"

 

" No sorry, I would rather not.'

 

That's all the conversation needs to be, I don't know why its so weird to some people.

Maybe the bathroom is full of grandma's depends that she is storing in a sandcastle like stack.  Maybe it's under reno.  Maybe mom can't guarantee that her 7yr old didn't miss when we went pee an hour ago.  There are like evleventy billion reasons a person might not be comfortable with a guest not using the potty and I just am not understanding how that relates to using handcuff and whips and multiple sexual partners.  

Again, it is just an analogy, because in both instances you should have the conversation ahead of time, and not presume. And if you don't, things can get awkward.

[ktgrok]

Just now, happysmileylady said:

You are right, it's an analogy.  Its an analogy that I find to be incredibly bizarre.  I am just having struggles with an analogy between sexual handcuffs and going pee.  

 

(well I suppose unless going pee and sexual handcuffs are part of the same BDSM thing...but I am guessing that's not where most people here are going.)

 

Ok, first, that was really funny. 

Second, I'm going to guess you are struggling with the analogy because you have no frame of reference, you are not someone who has a lot of experience navigating BDSM practices. Sort of like I'd struggle with a sport analogy. 

Just means you are not the intended audience, that's all 🙂

[Shoeless]

I've read the article. I still think the whole thing is weird.  

Like, if you are really freaked out that your guest is going to give you covid because they used your bathroom for 2 minutes, then you probably should not be socializing with that person just yet.

I realize that you've got a special set of circumstances, @CuriousMomof3.  But thinking about my own set of circumstances, if we did have guests over, I would not be worried about contracting covid from them because they used my bathroom.

Although, I think this just solved a problem I've had in the past with MIL using the bathroom in the master bedroom. I prefer she stay out of my bedroom and not nose around, but could never figure out how keep her out, (she does not respect a closed door). 

[Tanaqui]

6 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

You are right, it's an analogy.  Its an analogy that I find to be incredibly bizarre.  I am just having struggles with an analogy between sexual handcuffs and going pee. 

 

Yes, you've said this. Many times. We all know that you think this analogy makes no sense. Do you have anything new to say on this topic now?

Quote

the very niche group of BDSM/otherwise atypical sexual practice folks? 

 

Most of this sort of conversation is good to have even if you're having the most boring, vanilla sex. Even with just one partner. It's amazing to think about, but lots of people aren't in the habit of telling their partner what feels good to them, or asking if they're comfortable being touched this way or that way.

Quote

Like, if you are really freaked out that your guest is going to give you covid because they used your bathroom for 2 minutes, then you probably should not be socializing with that person just yet.

 

You're using a lot of dramatic language to discuss the issue of "How do I decide what, jointly, my friend and I think is acceptable to make a visit safe for both of us?"

Nobody here is described as being "freaked out" that their guest or host will "give them covid".

Edited July 9, 2020 by Tanaqui

[Moonhawk]

24 minutes ago, marbel said:

'Cause someone at NPR thought they were really clever, getting to reference BDSM, polyamory, etc., in an article related to covid. 

It's just normal straightforward communication, setting expectations among guests and hosts.  

 

...anticipating reading the words "pearl clutching" any second now.... 😄

Let them clutch their pearls, I'm grabbing my popcorn! Keep it going guys! I'll add fuel to the fire:

"Fuzzy cuffs are easier to talk about with family than Covid." Proof: conversations with my family. 

[Moonhawk]

16 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

So are we saying that an entire NPR article is actually just geared toward the very niche group of BDSM/otherwise atypical sexual practice folks?  Given that it's on National Public Radio....I am not sure that their intended audience is so niche.

Either "Yes", or

The alternate thing it might possibly be saying is the BDSM/otherwise atypical practice folks are not so niche.

From a certain point of view. 

Just spitballing here. Thought exercises really. Whew, I need to start taking the stairs more.

edit: there is the other alternate answer that "No, it's geared exactly to us, because it is great clickbait and can start arguments about Covid AND sex at the same time. Which is great revenue."

Edited July 9, 2020 by Moonhawk

[marbel]

11 hours ago, kand said:

<snip>

Oh also, asking at the time and then going home if the answer is no doesn't work for many of us. I would need to know ahead of time, or I wouldn't be able to go. Unless a place is pretty close to my house, that's not going to work for me.

Right, that's why the invitation has to be clear that everyone is staying outside. So the invited guests can calculate how that would work for them, and decline if needed. 

No way would I ever refuse to allow an invited guest to use my bathroom unless I had told them ahead of time that there would be no bathroom available. That would be horribly rude. It is pretty normal to expect to be able to use the bathroom when visiting someone, so the host has to advise in advance if it's not going to be available. ETA: Pretty normal in my experience in the US, wherever I've lived or traveled. 

Edited July 9, 2020 by marbel

[Shoeless]

12 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

You're using a lot of dramatic language to discuss the issue of "How do I decide what, jointly, my friend and I think is acceptable to make a visit safe for both of us?"

Nobody here is described as being "freaked out" that their guest or host will "give them covid".

 

I disagree that my language is dramatic.

And if there is no concern about contracting covid from bathroom usage, then why is a conversation about whether a guest can use the bathroom during covid necessary? If there are no safety concerns, then why have a conversation about safety?

[Shoeless]

2 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

For my family, and I appreciate that you said you realize our circumstances are somewhat unique, but it's way easier for my kids when lines are clear.  We have, for example, a rule that every single person who comes in my house washes hands and wipes their cellphone, unless they don't own one.  We could do it case by case, and think about what that person has touched, etc . . . but we don't.

Similarly, we have a rule that only those of our family that we're quarantining with, and medical professionals enter our house.  Now, we're planning another backyard visit, this time with people who can do stairs, and we're offering them access to the basement bathroom, because we can close it off.  But we made that decision in advance, and everyone knows about it.  

It's not that we're freaked out.  It's that we take the risks seriously, because they have the potential to seriously impact us, and we know that it's easier for us to enforce limits that are firm, especially with kids involved.

 

Thank you. I understand your perspective very clearly now. 

We take covid seriously.  My husband is diabetic and has hypertension, so covid would be a disaster here. In my opinion, there is really no safe socialization right now.  If someone is having guests over, they've already decided to do an unsafe thing. Bathroom usage by guests feels like nitpicking to me. 

And before anyone jumps on me, yes I know, not everyone is me and people have different needs and different levels of risk aversion. 

 

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, happysmileylady said:

So are we saying that an entire NPR article is actually just geared toward the very niche group of BDSM/otherwise atypical sexual practice folks?  Given that it's on National Public Radio....I am not sure that their intended audience is so niche.

It wasn't just about BDSM, it was also about the idea of safer sex conversations in general. 

[Shoeless]

1 hour ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

You think my anecdote about having my Grand-Aunt-in-Law visit her brother through a window put her at risk, and that since we were being unsafe we should have let her in the house?  

 

Oh for pity's sake, I thought this was a thread about a generic concept, (when having socially distanced events in the yard, should you let people use your bathroom?), not a critique about what you specifically are doing in your family in your house.  To be frank, I have not thought much the nuances of your specific situation.  It is far too unique for me to evaluate. 

Enjoy your night.