The Effort : Easy Ratio for Elementary Kids

[mathmarm]

So this is a topic that I have been thinking about a lot lately as we plan 2nd grade for our first HSed 2nd Grader.  I figure if its on my mind, then others are thinking it as well.

I waffle between feeling like it's perfect for him and worrying that it's to Too Lite to serve to transition to a more 'academically focused' 3rd grade. (Which is one of our goals for 2nd grade)

Jr is a very active and energetic boy. We specifically want to push him a little more this year to increase his discipline and focus for 'work'. (Also a 2nd grade goal)  Like most kids he can stay with something interesting-to-him for a lot longer than 'We-Said-So' tasks.

He'll have 6 subjects a day and our 2nd grade days will capped at 3h25m, but will typically be between 2h15m and 3h15m. We plan to alternate Writing and Science but intend Music, Drawing, Thinking Time, Geography and Athletics/Fitness to be done daily.

Geography is the meatiest Academic subject that we do. Drawing and Writing are both academically comfortable for him and he enjoys them a lot. Science is being designed to be 85-90% hands on, music is hands on, fitness is hands on, Thinking Time is discussion based .

This is a schedule that I can see him thriving with--we have modeled it closely after what worked in K and 1st and what interests him. But it seems too "lite" and "fun" to help prepare him for 3rd grade.

We didnt see the growth in focus and concentration that we had hoped for this year, he's only a kid and I know it isnt a terrible thing, but I wonder when is it okay for school to become 'work' and at what rate?

Edited May 22, 2020 by mathmarm
Updated the threads title.

[mathmarm]

I am not interested in taking away things he enjoys or inserting things he doesn't like 'just cause' but I am interested in pushing him a little to occassionally work at something.

We feel that the kids do need to learn to work (as children, gradually as they grow up) and that focus and mental discipline are important Character traits to develop, nurture and encourage from a young age.

Of course I'm talking about a 6.5 year old, so obviously he isn't about to work for hours at a stretch. But we would like him to begin learning that when we struggle with a thing we return to it later for another try.

I want to challenge him in appropriate ways on a slightly more regular basis. But many things come easy to him. When something doesn't, he wants to ignore ir/avoid it.

I guess the title of this thread doesn't fit. Because its not a matter of Book-work vs Hands-on Work.

But I guess its a question of Effortless vs Effortful work??? Not sure if thats right either.

Jr is a masterful reader--we don't include reading as a scholastic event in his life because he simply reads---he can read anything and reads all the time.

[mathmarm]

So I think part of the issue could be that most of the 3R skills require a suitable and consistent amount of effort for mastery just inherently.

Learning to read is work,

honing fine and gross motor skills is work,

developing numeracy skills AND tying those skills to literacy is work.

Because JR was able to do those things well, there hasn't been even the usual amount of work required of him by his K and 1st experiences.

Hubby feels that if anything, he's a bit lazier than other kids his grade/age. I don't know if I agree with the label 'lazy' but...

[Lori D.]

Every child's abilities/needs are different, and every family's goals are different, so I think it is extremely difficult to list a "one time table fits all" answer to your question of lite vs. work. 😉

Also, it's important to bear in mind that up through about age 9-10, children's rate of progress in the different subjects can vary radically during the school year. They *frequently* zoom ahead in one area (say, Math), while another area (such as reading, or spelling, or grammar), may sit in idle for a long while -- only to then put on a sudden spurt forward later on. Or, a child can "hit the wall" with a topic, and just need to step away from it for awhile -- let it "simmer on the back burner of their brain" while doing other topics for a week / month / half a year, until their brain has matured in whatever area was needed for moving forward. They also need time to absorb and assimilate, so while that may sometimes seem like work is too "lite" or too easy, it may be exactly what the child needs for their brain to be assimilating.

All that to say, many early elementary-aged children don't progress at a steady "schedule-able" rate. You have set your goals for next year of what subjects are most important to you to touch on each day. I would just suggest relaxing the time scheduling a bit, as your student may have days where he wants to spend much more time than you allowed on a particular topic -- and then be done for the day. So it is okay to just loop the formal study of the remaining subjects to the next day.

There also may be days he zips through the basics and doesn't feel like doing more just to fill up a time slot -- so don't "punish" a child who finishes early with additional material to feel like that is helping him learn to "work". Because it is more apt to feel like a punishment to immediately set the bar higher once the student has just cleared it rather than celebrating with the student, to help them keep that joy of learning.

A very rough guide for the early elementary grades runs about 1 hour per grade level to complete core academics (LA and Math) + 1-2 content subjects (such as Science, History, etc.). Based on that, for grade 2, you might roughly plan on 1-2 hours for your formal LA and Math studies, and then have available another *open-ended* or *relaxed* 1-2 hours later in your day for your student to explore the other daily subjects of Music, Drawing, Thinking Time, Geography and Athletics/Fitness. Yes, daily touch on the 6 subjects that are your goal, but also hold on to your time schedule lightly, to allow for normal child development. 😉 

And have some supplemental materials ready to go for when those spurts, or "hitting the wall" moments come, so you can keep working at a pace that helps him continue to progress.

BEST of luck, and ENJOY your journey and make some great family memories along the way in your learning -- the elementary ages go by so very quickly! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited May 23, 2020 by Lori D.

[Momto6inIN]

I often finding myself falling into the trap of focusing too much on preparing for the next stage of development instead of focusing on where they are now. I mean, yes, I want them to be ready for the next step, but too often I get caught up in thinking that if I want them to be ready for X grade level work, that means they should be doing some X grade level work now to get ready for it When in actuality what really prepares them for the next level of work is adequate time for the mastery and practice of what is appropriate for them at this level, not the next.

So I wouldn't get too worried about where you want him to be in 3rd grade just yet. I'd think about what skills and character traits you want him to work on now at age 6.5 and go from there. 

[mathmarm]

4 hours ago, square_25 said:

For us, music has always been something that is less about talent and more about putting in the hours. Could it maybe serve the same purpose for you? 

He's about 6 months into Ukelele. He has began to really enjoy it because the consistent practices are beginning to pay off.

He wants to start Recorder too. Once he achieves a certain level in Ukelele he may add Recorder.

Only once he has a certain level of maturity with Uke/Recorder would we be more comfortable investing in a classical instrument and expensive lessons.

[mathmarm]

 

4 hours ago, square_25 said:

Hmmmm. Yes, this would be something I'd work on, too. Maybe you could pick some areas in which to push him more to build up his endurance? 

We are absolutely interested in learning how amd when to stretch him using the subjects he already does.

I have been throwing out ideas with Hubby about "where" to push. Hubby doesn't want to add a "hard subject" because it may sour him on the subject artificially and it would definitely complicate our schedules to fit in an 'extra' subject.

Instead we have been thinking to inject occasional challenges in the subjects we already plan to do, not all at once of course. I wouldn't want to set him a "hard" task in multiple subjects at the same time.

For example in handicrafts: we are going to have him make a popup book -- he's never done one before.

Drawing: we are going to give a more challenging subject to draw from time to time.

In writing, I like to sometimes give an extra 'kick' to the lesson and to offer an enrichment activity hear and there--he loves to write and sometimes suggests 'twists' to the lessons himself. 

Etc.

I need to learn how to adapt more fluidly to different subjects, I guess.

 

[mathmarm]

1 hour ago, square_25 said:

Huh, ok. We’ve done piano since DD7 was 5 — she begged for it, so we signed her up. She’s finally playing interesting pieces and is enjoying it more now that she’s more proficient.

Do you follow a particular method or have an outside teacher that follows a particular method?

When you say she's starting to play interesting pieces after 2 year what pieces is she now able to access?

What would you say the 1st year investment (time wise) was like?

Music is the 1 subject that really intimidates me. I feel like I have to out source.

Edited May 23, 2020 by mathmarm

[8filltheheart]

Reality is that for some kids things come easy. I have a couple of kids where anything they try, they pick up easily.  I also have kids who face lots of hurdles in mastering things.  I don't make things harder or longer for the kids who pick up things easily. I want them to develop a love of learning and nurture lifelong desires for self-educating whatever topics come up in their life that interest them.  For me, it really boils down to the attitude they have when those "things are easy" kids face a bump and extra effort is required.  Developing perseverance is not only a life skill but also reveals a lot about character.  

Our youngest is by far  an "everything is easy" kid. She wanted to learn to play the violin and even though I am definitely not a music mom, it seemed like a good way to work on perseverance.  Picking up how to play the violin was unsurprisingly, yep, easy.  But, progression does require effort.  She has been playing for 2 yrs now and there are days when she will pout about practice.  But, SHE is the one who wants to learn to play.  It is her desire, not mine.  It is much easier to encourage positive attitude when the outcome desire is from their internal motivation than from some external parental force.

Not sure that actually exemplifies clearly what I am trying to share. But, 6 is little.  Nurturing internal desire to learn and self-satisfaction when they accomplish something they really want/desire will take them much farther throughout life than loading them down extra work simply bc we think they aren't working hard enough bc they are masters of age appropriate skills. Our philosophy is to nurture their inner desire vs. enforcing external drive.

[Xahm]

Your are right that others are thinking of this, too. I have 4 kids, ages 7, 6, 3, and 1, probably all at least gifted, and I very much don't want them to gain the "I'm smart, so I don't have to work" assumption that I have seen hurt many bright children as they get to the teenage years before meeting a challenge. I agree that time is extremely beneficial in children's maturity, though. My current six year old has grown by leaps and bounds in the last year while I've intentionally been very gentle. I could see that adjusting to life was his hard task for the past year (the previous year my husband's deployment and adding a new baby had thrown him off). We still did school stuff, but it was all at a relaxed pace that accommodated his wiggly self. I don't know if it was in spite of this or because of this or just independent of it, but he's learned a lot of academics at the same time as he has gained the ability to play games and lose gracefully, or win gracefully. He can now control his impulses, usually, well enough to judge when to engage adults in discussion or play, and how to walk away when a situation with other kids is headed south. This coming year I'm going to try to stretch him more with math and encourage his increased independence as well as reading for fun. Those are my main goals, and I look forward to seeing how he grows in unexpected ways as well. My current seven year old, almost eight, is a very different child. She has always had tons of determination and perseverance, but only if she sets the agenda. The Corona Crisis has interrupted the work we were doing to help her see the value of working in a group and caring, at least some, what other people think of you. We have academic goals, but she's so far ahead in most areas that I'm not going to push her harder than she pushes herself, except in writing. She has the writing stamina you'd expect in a child her age, but it's frustrating for her because that's too slow and limited for her to get her ideas down. That will be my area of academic push in the coming year. 

None of that may be directly applicable to your son, but I wrote it out because it helps me process and I hope it can be of some use to you too see someone else's thinking on this subject.

[8filltheheart]

12 minutes ago, txk said:

I found that with my own kids school just naturally, and gradually, became 'work'.  I didn't have to do anything; it just got harder as they got older and the subjects became more advanced and intense.  It wasn't something that had to be artificially created.    

But I don't understand ... is he working at too low a level of academics?  Especially if he NEVER struggles with a thing.  

For my own kids, it seemed to work to gauge the academics such that they were challenged but not thoroughly frustrated.  Too far in either direction and they would start getting restless, at best, and causing trouble at worst.  Maybe try to find that delicate balance and work with him in that zone a good part of the time? 

It also seemed to help my kids to have a wide variety of things besides the academics they did that required effort and perseverance.  Some examples of things they did were raising chickens and ducks and peacocks, and building a coop for the chickens and a small pond for the ducks.  Cleaning up our property which was about 8-10 years worth of work - hauling, burning, loading to haul to the dump, etc.  Working on our house and property which involved ripping out sheetrock and flooring and replacing stuff and tons of other things there.  Building their own sports things in the yard/property --  golf area, ice skating area, soccer goals, etc.  Learning to play musical instruments on their own (I found curr and got them started and encouraged them, but they were entirely self-motivated to do that.)  Figuring out how to make their own homemade movies.  And so on.

The point being that there are zillions of things out there that require 'effort' to do/learn.  And it he's being challenged in his academics, maybe add in some of the other things that are available to you and your particular family.  And real chores - not just all token chores that don't require much of him - can require a good bit of effort.  Heck, when most of our kids were in their teens they figured out how to repair the siding on our house and how to paint the entire thing, primer first, then paint.  *I* don't know how to paint a house.  Dh didn't know much.  But somehow - with a LOT of work ... it took weeks - all 5 dc worked together and did a fantastic job.  I mean, talk about effort.

You just have to find what takes 'effort' for your particular kid and do that.  And, yes, injecting a challenge into his subjects at random would be great.  But I would say you need to think much broader than that. Because, based on my own limited experience, learning to work hard at something is not an academic problem.  It's a 'life' problem.  ymmv, as usual.  🙂

I agree with most of what you said, but since I know this poster based on other posts, the bolded is most definitely NOT an area that is at issue.  The 6 yr old is working through Foerster's. 

(If anything, I would urge caution to adding, but that is bc I really don't care about academics with really little kids since I know that they will leap forward to where they are meant to be very quickly when they are older.  It is easier for me to have a long range view when I have a 30 yo child and I know my 10 yr old will get wherever she needs to get by high school graduation under her own steam without me prodding to do more now.  I have read the accelerated forum for yrs and the hard pushed kids that seemed light yrs ahead of my kids didn't end up accelerated beyond my kids much more relaxed, self-driven approach. It is also helpful that I have seen kids totally fizzle as older teens and young adults bc they were pushed and poked to constantly perform and once they didn't have that force pushing them constantly, they had no internal desire to continue and flatlined. There are cultural issues at play here as well. )

Edited May 23, 2020 by 8FillTheHeart

[mathmarm]

14 hours ago, Lori D. said:

You have set your goals for next year of what subjects are most important to you to touch on each day. I would just suggest relaxing the time scheduling a bit, as your student may have days where he wants to spend much more time than you allowed on a particular topic -- and then be done for the day. So it is okay to just loop the formal study of the remaining subjects to the next day.

There also may be days he zips through the basics and doesn't feel like doing more just to fill up a time slot -- so don't "punish" a child who finishes early with additional material to feel like that is helping him learn to "work".

A very rough guide for the early elementary grades runs about 1 hour per grade level to complete core academics (LA and Math) + 1-2 content subjects (such as Science, History, etc.). Based on that, for grade 2, you might roughly plan on 1-2 hours for your formal LA and Math studies, and then have available another *open-ended* or *relaxed* 1-2 hours later in your day for your student to explore the other daily subjects of Music, Drawing, Thinking Time, Geography and Athletics/Fitness. Yes, daily touch on the 6 subjects that are your goal, but also hold on to your time schedule lightly, to allow for normal child development. 😉 

And have some supplemental materials ready to go for when those spurts, or "hitting the wall" moments come, so you can keep working at a pace that helps him continue to progress.

Thanks Lori. D. 

We both work, which is why we have to "cap" the time that we devote to school each day with him. He's free to continue with things after "time is up", it's just that Mom and Dad don't have all the time in the world to sit with him while he works beyond a certain point. Our HS is very interaction-heavy. Most times he's saying "Hey, let's do X" not "Can I do X?"

Drawing, Athletics, Painting, Music and Handicrafts are "core" skills in the early elementary years for our homeschool. Geography is a subject we feel all our kids should know and know well.  Drawing, Handicraft-skills and Music are a significant part of the foundation we want in place for Upper Elementary and beyond.

We're always on the look out for quality supplemental and enrichment materials for the kids and are open to any and all suggestions for materials. Though we prefer resources that help us teach better for the K-2 stage.

[mathmarm]

  

I have no idea what happened to my other post. Sorry about that.

Thanks everyone for participating in this discussion with me. Because this is a Home schooling forum, it's default to talk about things in a "school" context. However, this is less an "academic" issue for us and more of an "education" (as in, the global development of the whole person) issue. 

So far, Jr. has not shown a strong internal drive, which of course sounds silly to say because he's 6.5. I know that, and it's less about him being 6.5 and more about how do we learn to find and tap into things that promote and/or require he push himself from within? There are many positive things about him--he's a great kid, really. Hubby and I both think so. (We're not biased 🙂 .)  

But we'd like him to begin learning to try and try again because that's an important skill too!  One that, so far, feels like it's not getting enough development and isn't going to be addressed much in the upcoming year unless we make some intentional changes.

The default or obvious place for this type of challenge is in his schooling, because culturally, school is the "work" our society expects from children. So that makes us wonder--should we have chosen a different focus for his "school" work? We feel that the way we do things--the subjects and skills we require of him are perfect for him. The format of out lessons are really great for him, and there is no doubt that he's doing well academically. He draws very well for his age, his handwriting and penmanship are well developed and don't get in the way of output at his age.  He is well coordinated and physically capable.

But he's still so uncomfortable trying things that he doesn't feel he can do right.
(Writing is one example of this! Sewing and Cardboard building is another.) He shies away from "hard" and he doesn't like "open-ended" tasks. He still needs so much guidance, scaffolding and hand-holding for anything that he feels has a "right" answer or result.

I don't want things to become artificially laborious for him. Hubby and I know that extending his day isn't the right answer. We know that artificially inflating the difficulty of his required tasks isn't the right answer. I guess we're looking for ways to expose him to more things so that we (the 3 of us) can find something that ignites a spark in him to dig a little deeper, rather than throw up his hands and walk away.

He's still young, but it's something that we want to learn how to articulate for ourselves at least. 

Edited May 23, 2020 by mathmarm
I have no idea what happened to my other post.

[8filltheheart]

We approach child development with a different philosophy, so you might not appreciate the perspective.  My research when I was in college was on the development of critical thinking skills in children.  Higher order thinking is developed through imaginative play.  We consider play to be their job.  Self-entertainment via play not only develops their higher order thinking skills but also develops the life long skill of self-reliance for filling free time devoid of devices. 

And, it isn't as easy as it sounds.  Most kids complain of boredom if not entertained or scheduled constantly.  

[mathmarm]

2 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

We approach child development with a different philosophy, so you might not appreciate the perspective.  My research when I was in college was on the development of critical thinking skills in children.  Higher order thinking is developed through imaginative play.  We consider play to be their job.  Self-entertainment via play not only develops their higher order thinking skills but also develops the life long skill of self-reliance for filling free time devoid of devices. 

And, it isn't as easy as it sounds.  Most kids complain of boredom if not entertained or scheduled constantly.  

Actually I do really appreciate the perspective. We're not married to any particular philosophy of child development, so I'm happy to learn how various "schools of thought" would address any particular problem that I'm seeing in my child so that we have more sources to seek guidance from when we feel that we might need help with an emerging issue.
I'd love to familiarize myself with any articles or books that you might have to recommend.

[8filltheheart]

Simple article https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/119/1/182

google search for imaginative play and developing higher order critical thinking skills

This is directed toward schools, but looks like it has decent info

 

[Susan in TX]

7 hours ago, mathmarm said:

 But he's still so uncomfortable trying things that he doesn't feel he can do right.
(Writing is one example of this! Sewing and Cardboard building is another.) He shies away from "hard" and he doesn't like "open-ended" tasks. He still needs so much guidance, scaffolding and hand-holding for anything that he feels has a "right" answer or result.

 

This might be because of anxiety rather than not wanting to work hard. It may be that he is a bit of a perfectionist or otherwise has some performance anxiety. 

Susan in TX

[mathmarm]

22 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

You aren't doing math?  

No. We'll re-assess for the second semester, but we're not planning to do math.

I had planned to include some formalized math time in his 2nd grade day, but decided against it more recently.

[mathmarm]

7 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

I''m curious why you'd go from Algebra in first to nothing in second.  Or am I confused and this is a different kid?  

My advanced math kid is miserable without math.  I'm always curious about other people's kids.

No, it's the same kid. 

I'd never intended to start Algebra this year--certainly not at the end of the school year. But Jr got interested when he saw the book several weeks ago and wanted to start, so we started right around the beginning of April. In under 2 months, we've gone through 5 chapters of the text and and he's making smooth progress through 2 other chapters.

He's doing very well with the material in Foerster and still really enjoys "Cuddle Math". We we will continue to work through the text over the summer, but if anything this experience has helped me see even more clearly that the years we spent doing diverse strands of math have created a very robust foundation that he can spring off of very easily to other things.

Currently, my (not super-solid) plan is to quietly retire the texts and workbooks towards the end of the summer and just not offer math for a bit after and see what happens.

If Jr. asks for math, then we'll resume daily Math Meetings, and if he wants more than just the Math Meetings, then I'll do a couple of mom-made units with him. But I don't anticipate using any formal math resources with him for at least the first semester of second grade.

[mathmarm]

Hubby is hoping to introduce/expose Jr. to various streams of science this year. We're slowly beginning to compile list of topics that make good "Hands On" units in Science. Hubby wants to try and show him how live science can be so his main criteria is that it's something that we can do at the house without much fuss.

We're thinking topics like

Anatomy (Dissections!)

Plant science (a box garden) 

Entomology (Trapping and observing then releasing insects)

Physics (via demonstrations) 

Electricity/Circuits

We'll see how it goes.

[lulalu]

For us, my ds is a perfectionist. The perfectionism is what hangs him up when things are not coming easy. He whines when things are a bit of a push.

This year I felt a need to work through the whines because they were getting to me. We worked on this area with chores. Not just getting it done, but doing it to my standards. And I have given him a lot of chores since staying home. He needs the work to get energy out, but I have seen a lot more fruit even in his school work. I give him more chores than I think I should. And I make him stay focused. Him doing the chores hasn't eased my load- at least not yet (he is 8). I have needed to stay with him, train him to see (really see!), focus, try again, all that kind of stuff. 

For us school isn't a child's job, education is a part of life even in adulthood. We move a lot and so ds has seen dh and me learning new languages every 4ish years. When we moved by the sea I bought a lot of books and took to learning about the sea. So, for us school isn't work- it a life long joy of education. (At least that is our hope that we are passing that along). 

I also very much view play the same as 8. We also don't buy lots and lots of toys (cause we move A LOT). So honestly, ds always has a laundry basket full of junk and garbage. Juice bottles, cardboard, tapes, pvc pipes, all kinds of things. And it encourages him when he gets an idea to work through it because it is fun for him.