How to teach the concept of a complete sentence?

[Random]

My 15 year-old son cannot seem to tell the difference between a fragment, a complete sentence, and a run on sentence.  He seems to have zero understanding of the concept of a complete sentence.  His essays are thoughtful and well organized, but the punctuation is almost always 100% incorrect.

Is there a tool that can help me teach him the differences?  How to know when to stop a sentence?  What makes a sentence complete? A run on?

A little bit about him: he is dyslexic.  Home school for K-7,  public school for 8th, home for 9th this year.  He's had numerous English teachers (public school & online & co-op) besides me, and we've all worked with him on this using different programs: First Language Lessons, Rod & Staff, Christian Light Education regular and remedial programs, MCT, whatever they used in public school, Veritas Press's Composition, and maybe some more I'm forgetting.

I'm wondering if anyone has any different ideas for me?  Something simple and basic and with a ton of repetition that will help him?

 

[Gil]

I think that you might get better responses if you post on the Learning Challenges board.

Does he have any other issues? Or is his only weak spot sentences?

[Random]

5 minutes ago, Gil said:

I think that you might get better responses if you post on the Learning Challenges board.

Does he have any other issues? Or is his only weak spot sentences?

I wondered if I should post on the LC board.  Thanks for the response.

He reads and spells below grade level.  However, I had hoped there was something we could use to work on sentence structure separately.   Maybe it's all too closely related to separate?

[Gil]

I have no idea if it's too closely related to separate. Families who've handled or seen similar will probably be able to better advise you as to best resources that might be available to you as a home school parent/teacher.

[Zoo Keeper]

Maybe something like these topical books from R&S?  https://www.milestonebooks.com/list/Rod_and_Staff_Remedial_English/

[sweet2ndchance]

Can he diagram or analyze and underline like they do in MCT? Pick one of his sentences and have him diagram or analyze and underline.  Read his sentences aloud to him (without letting him see what you are reading) using the punctuation (or lack thereof) to guide your voice and inflection. Can he hear when a sentence doesn't sound right? Does he type or hand write his essays? Maybe typing his essays in something like MS Word, where it will highlight most his grammar and mechanics mistakes and suggest how to fix it, will help him to polish his prose? Perhaps seeing his writing consistently corrected over and over again, in real time instead of after he turns it in, will help him learn how his writing should flow. Those are the first things that come to mind to try with a teenager to help them understand sentence structure and flow.

[Random]

1 hour ago, Zoo Keeper said:

Maybe something like these topical books from R&S?  https://www.milestonebooks.com/list/Rod_and_Staff_Remedial_English/

 

I'm not sure how I missed those in the past.  Thank you for the suggestion!  The sentence book looks like it teaches exactly what he struggles with.

 

1 hour ago, sweet2ndchance said:

Can he diagram or analyze and underline like they do in MCT? Pick one of his sentences and have him diagram or analyze and underline.  Read his sentences aloud to him (without letting him see what you are reading) using the punctuation (or lack thereof) to guide your voice and inflection. Can he hear when a sentence doesn't sound right? Does he type or hand write his essays? Maybe typing his essays in something like MS Word, where it will highlight most his grammar and mechanics mistakes and suggest how to fix it, will help him to polish his prose? Perhaps seeing his writing consistently corrected over and over again, in real time instead of after he turns it in, will help him learn how his writing should flow. Those are the first things that come to mind to try with a teenager to help them understand sentence structure and flow.

 

This is a brilliant idea!  He does fine diagramming sentences in textbooks and workbooks.  But I wonder if it would be more meaningful for him to diagram and analyze his own sentence?  Perhaps he could get a mental image as to why it doesn't make sense?

I'm not sure if he can hear when his own sentence doesn't sound right.  He pauses where there should be a period or comma when he reads his own essay out loud, even though there isn't one.  So when he reads it, he reads it as though the punctuation is correct.  But when he writes it, he writes it incorrectly.  There's a connection missing.

He types all of his work already.

[sweet2ndchance]

3 minutes ago, Random said:

Perhaps he could get a mental image as to why it doesn't make sense?

That is exactly why I would have him diagram his own sentence. I don't just do diagrams as in exercise in studying why good sentences work. I also use it as a tool to analyze my own, and my children's own, sentences. If it won't diagram, then very likely there is something wrong.

Does he understand that punctuation shows the reader where to pause? Does he understand that when he pauses for a brief second in reading his writing aloud that there should probably be a comma or some other form of punctuation there? I know a lot of kids think that punctuation is just a bunch of rules teachers made up as an excuse to use red markers and torture children but in reality, it does serve an important purpose. Does he hear the difference when reading something like "Let's eat Grandma" and "Let's eat, Grandma."? Does he understand that a single comma changes the meaning of the entire sentence?

If he is typing all his work, is it set to show him grammar and mechanics mistakes? Does he just ignore the squiggly lines under everything when his grammar is incorrect? I know in MS Word it's a green squiggly line for grammar and mechanics mistakes but I don't know about other word processor programs. What is he using?

All that said, in my experience, there are two kinds of teenage writers, ones who over use commas and ones who use no commas. lol Almost all can identify a comma and give a few instances where one should be used, but it doesn't seem to cross over into their writing. I've only met a few would not benefit from a grammar and mechanics review at the very least in high school.

[73349]

16 minutes ago, Random said:

I'm not sure if he can hear when his own sentence doesn't sound right.  He pauses where there should be a period or comma when he reads his own essay out loud, even though there isn't one.  So when he reads it, he reads it as though the punctuation is correct.  But when he writes it, he writes it incorrectly.  There's a connection missing.

He types all of his work already.

Have you tried reading it out loud to him without using pauses unless they're marked? He may be able to stop you and tell you where the punctuation goes.

[Random]

2 minutes ago, whitehawk said:

Have you tried reading it out loud to him without using pauses unless they're marked? He may be able to stop you and tell you where the punctuation goes.

Yes.  He can't hear it when I do it. He inserts it in his own mind, I think, because it's his own writing and he knows what he means to say.

 

3 minutes ago, sweet2ndchance said:

That is exactly why I would have him diagram his own sentence. I don't just do diagrams as in exercise in studying why good sentences work. I also use it as a tool to analyze my own, and my children's own, sentences. If it won't diagram, then very likely there is something wrong.

Does he understand that punctuation shows the reader where to pause? Does he understand that when he pauses for a brief second in reading his writing aloud that there should probably be a comma or some other form of punctuation there? I know a lot of kids think that punctuation is just a bunch of rules teachers made up as an excuse to use red markers and torture children but in reality, it does serve an important purpose. Does he hear the difference when reading something like "Let's eat Grandma" and "Let's eat, Grandma."? Does he understand that a single comma changes the meaning of the entire sentence?

If he is typing all his work, is it set to show him grammar and mechanics mistakes? Does he just ignore the squiggly lines under everything when his grammar is incorrect? I know in MS Word it's a green squiggly line for grammar and mechanics mistakes but I don't know about other word processor programs. What is he using?

All that said, in my experience, there are two kinds of teenage writers, ones who over use commas and ones who use no commas. lol Almost all can identify a comma and give a few instances where one should be used, but it doesn't seem to cross over into their writing. I've only met a few would not benefit from a grammar and mechanics review at the very least in high school.

 

He uses LibreOffice and he ignores the red and green correction squiggly lines.  Frankly, I don't sit with him when he types or writes anymore.  We have baggage from when I was extremely impatient with him before we got the dyslexia dx.  I did all the things you're not supposed to do, and now it stresses him out for me to sit with him while writing or for me to check his writing for his outsourced class before he turns it in.  Sad, but true.  I read his essays after they've been graded and returned.  The instructor is exceedingly gracious with her corrections.  I was hoping to do some targeted work on this skill area over the summer.

He's a mix of contradictions.  He seems to understand many grammar rules and their benefits to readers and writers, but for whatever reason can't/doesn't apply them to his own writing process.  For instance, he wouldn't be able to easily understand someone else's sentence that was missing its punctuation.   But he doesn't use it in his own.

I am so excited to try diagramming his own sentence, though.  Because of the dyslexia, I think diagramming his own sentences will click with him more than anything else right now.

[PeterPan]

5 hours ago, Random said:

He's a mix of contradictions.  He seems to understand many grammar rules and their benefits to readers and writers, but for whatever reason can't/doesn't apply them to his own writing process.  For instance, he wouldn't be able to easily understand someone else's sentence that was missing its punctuation.   But he doesn't use it in his own.

Is this what you meant?

9 hours ago, Random said:

My 15 year-old son cannot seem to tell the difference between a fragment, a complete sentence, and a run on sentence.  He seems to have zero understanding of the concept of a complete sentence.  His essays are thoughtful and well organized, but the punctuation is almost always 100% incorrect.

Is the issue occurring in oral narration, in everyday speech, in oral discussions (compare/contrast, forming an argument, defending a position), or only when he goes to type his work? 

It's important to sort out what problem you're actually dealing with here, whether it's a language problem or a getting it onto screen while holding all your thoughts problem or something else. If he uses dictation software (readily available for any device now), do the fragments correct?

If you suspect a language issue, then your best bet would be to get testing from an SLP who specializes in dyslexia and literacy (yes, this is a thing). It sounds like he could use testing anyway to explain why his reading continues to lag despite intervention. Is his reading comprehension affected or his decoding or both? Again, thorough testing by an SLP specializing in literacy could sort this out. They have some tests like the TNL, the SPELT (which he is out of age for but which would be warranted if he seems to have significant expressive language issues, the TILLS, etc. etc. 

Depending on what's going on, you'd have some options for evidence-based and SLP-developed interventions that might be more appropriate than general education curriculum. For instance Shape Coding is pretty commonly used for kids in this scenario. But really, you could use some testing to figure out what's going on. What language testing did they do when they diagnosed his dyslexia? The CELF? Anything else? I'm not a fan of the CELF as it has sensitivity issues and frequently under-identifies kids with language disability issues. The dyslexia itself is a language disability, so you're trying to figure out how extensive it is and what's going on. It's why diagramming alone, or working on the skill from only one angle, might not remediate the problem. He's probably going to need more explicit intervention and going to need to do the same concept several ways to get it to click, much like his decoding instruction needed to be multi-sensory. 

[Lori D.]

JMO, but because Grammar and Writing are completely entwined, you kind of need to address both to move forward with Writing.

Joyce Herzog's 6 Weeks to Understanding Grammar is a terrific resource for older students. Her materials are specifically designed for students with learning issues, and are very concrete/visual. She starts with what is a complete sentence -- and she starts with very basic 2 word sentences that are complete sentences. (A subject and a predicate -- a "who" or "what"  and a "what happened".) From there, everything else is adding on to either the who/what (subject) and/or the what happened (predicate).

Once you understand this basic Grammar concept, you can approach Writing from that angle -- start with the 2 words that make the subject (the who or what), and the predicate (the what happened).

Examples of "basic" complete sentences:

John ran.
Mary sings.

A sentence fragment is missing one or both of the subject and/or the predicate. One way to see if you have a fragment is to look for the  basic "who or what" of the sentence and the very basic 1 word of "what happened". One way to practice writing complete sentences is to start with the "basic complete sentence" of a subject and a predicated (a who/what and a what happened), and then add on to each to make them more specific, detailed, and interesting.

John ran.
(add detail: how did he run?) -- John ran swiftly.
(add detail: where did he run?) -- John ran swiftly all the way home.
(add detail: which John?) -- John Smith ran swiftly all the way home.
(add detail: what did John look like?) -- The friendly, red-haired, freckle-faced first grader named John Smith ran swiftly all the way home.

Mary sings.
(add detail: which Mary?) My friend Mary sings.
(add detail: what else about Mary?) My friend Mary, who lives two blocks from me, sings.
(add detail: when does she sing?) My friend Mary, who lives two blocks from me, sings every week.
(add detail: in which situation does she sing?) My friend Mary, who lives two blocks from me, sings every week with the Women's Community Choir.

A run-on sentence is usually 2 (or more) complete sentences (complete thoughts) run together without a breath (a period) to separate them and to give the reader a moment to reflect on each complete separate thought (complete sentence). Quite often you can spot run-on sentences by trying to read them out loud in one breath -- you find you run out of breath, or, that you naturally WANT to pause between the 2 separate thoughts that make the 2 complete sentences that have been run-together.

Example of a run-on: The friendly, red-haired, freckle-faced first grader named John Smith ran swiftly all the way home he stopped on the way into the house at the back door to pet his dog Spot, a black and white Dalmatian.

Once you go through 6 Weeks to Understanding Grammar (and do it at whatever pace YOUR student needs for success (:D ), you might look at going through  Writing Skills I and then Writing Skills II (Diana Hanbury King) -- VERY straight-forward, simple explanations and practices; available used at Amazon. (Or, possibly Writing Fabulous Sentences and Paragraphs -- for upper elementary grades, but also with straight-forward, simple explanations and practices.)


BEST of luck in finding what best helps! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited May 21, 2019 by Lori D.

[PeterPan]

9 hours ago, Lori D. said:

John ran.
(add detail: how did he run?) -- John ran swiftly.
(add detail: where did he run?) -- John ran swiftly all the way home.
(add detail: which John?) -- John Smith ran swiftly all the way home.
(add detail: what did John look like?) -- The friendly, red-haired, freckle-faced first grader named John Smith ran swiftly all the way home.

Mary sings.
(add detail: which Mary?) My friend Mary sings.
(add detail: what else about Mary?) My friend Mary, who lives two blocks from me, sings.
(add detail: when does she sing?) My friend Mary, who lives two blocks from me, sings every week.
(add detail: in which situation does she sing?) My friend Mary, who lives two blocks from me, sings every week with the Women's Community Choir.

Note, this works if the dc is solid at answering wh-questions. Just depends on how extensive the language issues are causing this. 

[Lori D.]

3 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Note, this works if the dc is solid at answering wh-questions. Just depends on how extensive the language issues are causing this. 

Agree. OP didn't seem to suggest that was the problem for her 15yo, but if it is, statements, rather than questions can be used --  "Tell me more about John." "Describe John." "Use more words to tell about John running."

[Lori D.]

On 4/27/2019 at 8:20 AM, Random said:

... His essays are thoughtful and well organized, but the punctuation is almost always 100% incorrect.

Don't know if this would be a help for your DS, but this description is a bit similar to how my DS#2 with stealth dyslexia would write -- flow of thoughts with little punctuation or capitalization. We had to break the writing process into very discreet steps, each done at a separate time or in a separate writing session, so his brain could focus on and SEE just one thing at a time and not get overwhelmed:

- step 1 = brainstorming ideas
- step 2 = selecting ideas and organizing into a "key word outline"
- step 3 = rough draft writing of transforming each line of the key word outline into a complete sentence
   (for a longer piece of writing, this might take several separate sessions)
- step 4a = revision 1 -- add what is missing (transitions, or details, or conclusion, etc)
- step 4b = revision 2 =  remove what does not belong, or combine sentences that are repeating material
- step 4c = revision 3 --  fix run-ons and fragments
- step 5 = proof-editing -- spelling fixes, punctuation/capitalization fixes, remove accidental double words, etc.

[Random]

On 4/27/2019 at 5:44 PM, PeterPan said:

Is this what you meant?

Yes.  He understands punctuation when reading to understand sentences.  He understands what the marks mean when he sees them, and a paragraph without punctuation is as hard for him to understand as it is for a typical 15 year-old.  The disconnect comes when he writes a paragraph.  There's not much rhyme or reason to where his punctuation marks are.  Sometimes he gets it right, but most of the time, he doesn't.

 

On 4/27/2019 at 5:44 PM, PeterPan said:

Is the issue occurring in oral narration, in everyday speech, in oral discussions (compare/contrast, forming an argument, defending a position), or only when he goes to type his work? 

It's important to sort out what problem you're actually dealing with here, whether it's a language problem or a getting it onto screen while holding all your thoughts problem or something else. If he uses dictation software (readily available for any device now), do the fragments correct?

If you suspect a language issue, then your best bet would be to get testing from an SLP who specializes in dyslexia and literacy (yes, this is a thing). It sounds like he could use testing anyway to explain why his reading continues to lag despite intervention. Is his reading comprehension affected or his decoding or both? Again, thorough testing by an SLP specializing in literacy could sort this out. They have some tests like the TNL, the SPELT (which he is out of age for but which would be warranted if he seems to have significant expressive language issues, the TILLS, etc. etc. 

Depending on what's going on, you'd have some options for evidence-based and SLP-developed interventions that might be more appropriate than general education curriculum. For instance Shape Coding is pretty commonly used for kids in this scenario. But really, you could use some testing to figure out what's going on. What language testing did they do when they diagnosed his dyslexia? The CELF? Anything else? I'm not a fan of the CELF as it has sensitivity issues and frequently under-identifies kids with language disability issues. The dyslexia itself is a language disability, so you're trying to figure out how extensive it is and what's going on. It's why diagramming alone, or working on the skill from only one angle, might not remediate the problem. He's probably going to need more explicit intervention and going to need to do the same concept several ways to get it to click, much like his decoding instruction needed to be multi-sensory. 

 

Thank you for the detailed reply.  DS was administered the Weschler IQ test for children and the Wescher Individual Achievement Test III.  His lowest scores (below average) were on the sentence composition portion of the WIAT III, incidentally.   His sentence repetition scores were superior and his other sentence-and-writing-related metrics were average.  He's great with science and math.

I appreciate you mentioning Shape Coding.  I just bought Hands-on English Linking Blocks by John Menken for something totally unrelated. Maybe my son would benefit from a run-through? 

I do think he needs more intervention than he's getting.  The reality is that we live in a very poor, rural school district.  I was able to get DS in for testing within a month of asking for it.  We have an IEP in place and DS goes for a class every day where the teacher is supposed to be using the Wilson Reading System to remediate the dyslexia.  The reality is the special ed teacher is also the coach for a few sports teams and is RARELY there.  Even if he were there, I'm not sure he would be doing much good since he has zero (literally-it's his very first year teaching anywhere, any class) experience working with average-intelligence kids.  The rest of the class is kids with very low IQs who are working at their mental-age level.  Kids with severe disabilities.  Kids with TBIs, Kids with extremely serious mental health disorders.   That's what I'm dealing with, so I don't think I'll be able to get him any other help unless I drive three hours one-way to a larger city.  I'm just really hoping it doesn't come to that!

 

[Random]

@Lori D.

Thank you for the wonderful response.  I respect your advice and I was hoping you'd chime in!  The book by Joyce Herzog looks very promising.  It's different from anything we've done so far.   DS and I are both highly concrete, straightforward thinkers and we both love a book without fluff. 

It's interesting you mentioned this is the same way your dyslexic wrote.  It does kind of seem like my ds gets overwhelmed. I just reread his last essay and noticed that the number of errors jumps exponentially as the essay goes on.  For instance, his first paragraph is about 10% correct.  By his last paragraph, there's just one long run on sentence without any capitalization or punctuation at all.

On 4/27/2019 at 7:46 PM, Lori D. said:

A run-on sentence is really 2 complete sentences (2 complete thoughts) run together without a breath (a period) to separate them and to give the reader a moment to reflect on each complete separate thought (complete sentence). Quite often you can spot run-on sentences by trying to read them out loud in one breath -- you find you run out of breath, or, that you naturally WANT to pause between the 2 separate thoughts that make the 2 complete sentences that have been run-together.

 

He will pause where the periods should be, I think, because he knows where the period goes on some level, but can't seem to put it on the paper.  He reads his essay aloud and pauses where the period should be, but isn't.   In that way, he has a very hard time catching his own mistakes.

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Random said:

For instance, his first paragraph is about 10% correct.  By his last paragraph, there's just one long run on sentence without any capitalization or punctuation at all.

He may be fatiguing from the strain of trying to do so many things at once. 

1 hour ago, Random said:

a paragraph without punctuation is as hard for him to understand as it is for a typical 15 year-old. 

No, a student without a language disability should be able to do this.

1 hour ago, Random said:

I just bought Hands-on English Linking Blocks by John Menken

Let me look them up! I think it's a valid question whether it's that he doesn't know (language disability) or that his brain is wearing out trying to do SO MANY THINGS at once. That's where Lori's steps are brilliant and where tech comes in. My dh uses dictation for his compositions and pauses to add punctuation with verbal commands. If a student's working memory is low or if they're struggling to remember what they were trying to say because they don't have a graphic organizer or map of the writing made (Inspiration, whatever), then they're hard-pressed to pause like this. When my ds dictates, he wants to go SUPER FAST and just get it out, because he's afraid he'll lose it. 

So I think play with it and see what seems to be a factor. Talk with him and see what he notices holding him back. Working memory is easy to work on and there are SO many tech options now. I think you could do a run-through with the linking blocks and see what happens. I *think* I've seen them mentioned on SLP lists. It just depends how far back you need to go to get it working. If nothing else, using the linking blocks would let you practice in a non-threatening way to build proficiency. I have some sentence-building games like this. You could turn it into a game and practice using some new tech to see if he has less fatigue and can get out more, more accurately. You could fade from the linking blocks to pictures, a game like Dixit, and then to conversations/debates where you each frame an argument (why you think a news article or viewpoint is right/wrong) ,etc. just brief things but giving less of the language and more having him do original till he's proficient.

1 hour ago, Random said:

We have an IEP in place and DS goes for a class every day where the teacher is supposed to be using the Wilson Reading System to remediate the dyslexia.  The reality is the special ed teacher is also the coach for a few sports teams and is RARELY there. 

This is unbelievable and I'm sorry. You can sue the school district for failing to give the intervention and they would be compelled to pay for a private tutor to make it up this summer. This IEP is a legal document, a contract of services they agreed to provide. If you have a way to show the number of absences, you'd have a case.

Edited April 29, 2019 by PeterPan

[Random]

3 hours ago, PeterPan said:

This is unbelievable and I'm sorry. You can sue the school district for failing to give the intervention and they would be compelled to pay for a private tutor to make it up this summer. This IEP is a legal document, a contract of services they agreed to provide. If you have a way to show the number of absences, you'd have a case.

 

Yeah...I don't know if I'd want to do that.  I really do think they are doing the best they can.  Sports are what keep a lot of the kids going to school around here rather than just dropping out, so they prioritize the sports programs over anything academic.  The pattern is to hire brand new teachers and pay them a pittance until they gain experience.  Then they move away to a better district where they make more money as soon as they can.

 

But!  I want to update!  We diagrammed a few sentences out of DS's last essay and he immediately saw they were run on sentences.  I was thrilled!  We will continue that practice and add in at least one of the resources suggested in the thread.

Thank you to everyone for the suggestions and replies!

Edited April 29, 2019 by Random

[Melissa in Australia]

All my Biological children have dyslexia, some profound. They all have had great trouble with sentence structure and paragraph development. We used computer for all writing once past year 7.

for 3 of my children using a spell checker and grammar checker in WORD really helped him to see where he was going wrong and they  became better at writing because of this instant feedback

My oldest had to have me scribe for him until he was 16 as he knew he was writing wrong but could not work out how to fix it. It resulted in a huge amount of frustration and him loosing what he was trying to write - many notebooks torn up etc. But if I scribed for him then there was one step removed - and he could complete his writing tasks. I would write exactly as he would tell me. He copied from what I had written afterwards. He went off to University and got top of his year in every year - his degree didn't require much written work  just lots and lots of math which he was gifted in

My DD uses Grammarly  for all her University Writing  https://www.grammarly.com/?q=brand&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=brand_f1&utm_content=329885936579&utm_term=grammarly for word&matchtype=e&placement=&network=g&gclid=CjwKCAjwwZrmBRA7EiwA4iMzBIpTEC7snK_Su2O5CoRaPHVhfdV3AALNSSxtQLJyTO8skaYRvbFNbxoC4rYQAvD_BwE