Do we really need physics?

[....]

We're in Texas, if that makes a difference.  I know the public schoolers have to have physics to graduate here, don't they?  Would it be a disaster if we skipped physics in high school?  My oldest two are 13 months apart, so they've always done school together.  We have plans to do physics next year for dd's senior year, but I really think Anatomy & Physiology would be much more useful for them.  Both of them want to go into the medical field.  DD has decided she wants to get her BSN and DS wants to be a doctor (which now that his sister is looking at nursing school, he's interested in that, too).  So, I potentially have a nurse and a doctor here, or two nurses.  I just think A&P would be so much more useful, especially since they will both need it in college.

They already have 2 colleges picked out that they're applying to and they're not very selective.  The nursing program itself is one of the best in TX, but getting into the college itself is not selective.  But, you don't apply for the nursing program right away - nursing classes start the third year.  

I know I can teach two sciences next year if I have to.  Struggling with this decision here...  

[Ann.without.an.e]

My kids have not had it BUT it isn't a state requirement for us either.  So it really is a requirement in TX?  Wow, here they need Bio, Chem, and one other science credit of their choosing.  No one requires specifically Physics.  DD did not want to take it in High School, but now she has to take it next semester for her college major and she is not happy ?

[regentrude]

25 minutes ago, Evanthe said:

 So, I potentially have a nurse and a doctor here, or two nurses.  I just think A&P would be so much more useful, especially since they will both need it in college.

Just a heads-up: a future doctor (or anybody who majors in biological sciences) will have to take two semesters of physics in college.

ETA: But it all depends on your approach to high school. One can also make the argument that subjects the student will not encounter again in college should be taught in high school because that would be the student's only exposure, while subjects they will study at great depth in college don't necessarily have to be studied in high school as well.

[almondbutterandjelly]

If I had to pick one or the other, I would do Anatomy in your case. 

However, as a for instance, in my case, my dd wants to do nursing, but I'm afraid that she'll end up switching majors to Atmospheric Science or something (we like weather), and would need physics.  And we find physics very hard in our household so I want her first exposure to be with me at home.  So we are doubling up.  Actually, we are taking two years to do Apologia's A&P and we're just about to start our second year of it.  Plus start our year of Physics (homegrown because even regular physics textbooks are confusing to me and assume a level of physics understanding that does not come naturally to me with my math degree).  My dd is a senior and is also applying to a not particularly selective university with an excellent nursing program, in Texas.

[AngieW in Texas]

Physics is not required to graduate high school in Texas. It is recommended and the counselors definitely try to push it, but it is not required unless you are trying to get a STEM endorsement. Last year I taught chemistry and forensic science. Several seniors were transferred from physics to my forensic science course in an effort to try to find some kind of science that they could pass so they could still graduate in June. 

For the upcoming schoolyear, I am teaching forensic science again and will also be teaching physics. I am sure my students who are failing physics will be transferred to one of my forensic science classes or possibly to environmental systems in an effort to get them the mandatory minimum number of science classes.

https://tcta.org/node/13847-graduation_requirements

Hsers do not have to follow state of Texas graduation requirements, but I'm including them so you can see what they actually are. They are from the link above.

English — four credits: Students must earn credits in English I, English II and English III. The fourth credit may be chosen from a list of approved courses. 

Math — three credits: Students must earn credits in Algebra I and Geometry. The third credit may be chosen from a list of approved courses that includes Algebra II, Statistics and many CTE courses.

Science — three credits: Students must earn one credit in Biology, AP Biology or IB Biology. The other two credits may be selected from a list of approved courses that includes Chemistry, Physics and many CTE courses.

Social studies — three credits: Students must earn credits in U.S. History Since 1877 (one credit), U.S. Government (one-half credit) and Economics (one-half credit). The third credit may be chosen from World History or World Geography.

Languages other than English — two credits: These credits may be earned in any two levels of the same language or two credits in computer programming languages selected from Computer Science I, II and III (if those credits are earned prior to Sept. 1, 2016). Upon completion of the first credit, if the student demonstrates an unlikelihood of completing the second credit, the student may substitute Special Topics on Language and Culture, World History or World Geography if there is no local district requirement for their completion; computer programming languages; or another credit listed for languages other than English. 

Physical education — one credit: Students are required to earn one credit in PE. They may do so by participating in a private or commercially sponsored physical activity program offered on or off a school campus and outside of the regular school day, if approved by the commissioner of education. PE credit also may be earned through participation in athletics, JROTC, drill team, marching band or cheerleading. Students unable to participate in physical activity due to a disability or illness may substitute an academic elective credit or a course or activity offered by a school district that is developed with an institute of higher education and local business that will allow students to enter a career or technology training program in the region, an institute of higher learning without remediation, an apprenticeship training program, or an internship required as part of accreditation toward an industry-recognized certificate.

Fine arts — one credit: Students must earn one fine arts credit. They may earn it in a traditional fine arts course or in a course such as Digital Art and Animation or 3-D Modeling and Animation or other approved courses.

Electives — five credits: These credits must be selected from an SBOE-approved list or from a locally developed course or activity that does not satisfy a specific course graduation requirement.

 

[fourisenough]

My two nursing majors took no physics, but each completed 5 credits of high school science by doubling up senior year.

DD20: Adv Earth & Space, Bio, Chem, AP Bio, A&P

DD18: Bio, Chem, AP Chem, AP Bio, A&P

 

 

[....]

1 hour ago, AngieW in Texas said:

Physics is not required to graduate high school in Texas. It is recommended and the counselors definitely try to push it, but it is not required unless you are trying to get a STEM endorsement. Last year I taught chemistry and forensic science. Several seniors were transferred from physics to my forensic science course in an effort to try to find some kind of science that they could pass so they could still graduate in June. 

For the upcoming schoolyear, I am teaching forensic science again and will also be teaching physics. I am sure my students who are failing physics will be transferred to one of my forensic science classes or possibly to environmental systems in an effort to get them the mandatory minimum number of science classes.

https://tcta.org/node/13847-graduation_requirements

Hsers do not have to follow state of Texas graduation requirements, but I'm including them so you can see what they actually are. They are from the link above.

English — four credits: Students must earn credits in English I, English II and English III. The fourth credit may be chosen from a list of approved courses. 

Math — three credits: Students must earn credits in Algebra I and Geometry. The third credit may be chosen from a list of approved courses that includes Algebra II, Statistics and many CTE courses.

Science — three credits: Students must earn one credit in Biology, AP Biology or IB Biology. The other two credits may be selected from a list of approved courses that includes Chemistry, Physics and many CTE courses.

Social studies — three credits: Students must earn credits in U.S. History Since 1877 (one credit), U.S. Government (one-half credit) and Economics (one-half credit). The third credit may be chosen from World History or World Geography.

Languages other than English — two credits: These credits may be earned in any two levels of the same language or two credits in computer programming languages selected from Computer Science I, II and III (if those credits are earned prior to Sept. 1, 2016). Upon completion of the first credit, if the student demonstrates an unlikelihood of completing the second credit, the student may substitute Special Topics on Language and Culture, World History or World Geography if there is no local district requirement for their completion; computer programming languages; or another credit listed for languages other than English. 

Physical education — one credit: Students are required to earn one credit in PE. They may do so by participating in a private or commercially sponsored physical activity program offered on or off a school campus and outside of the regular school day, if approved by the commissioner of education. PE credit also may be earned through participation in athletics, JROTC, drill team, marching band or cheerleading. Students unable to participate in physical activity due to a disability or illness may substitute an academic elective credit or a course or activity offered by a school district that is developed with an institute of higher education and local business that will allow students to enter a career or technology training program in the region, an institute of higher learning without remediation, an apprenticeship training program, or an internship required as part of accreditation toward an industry-recognized certificate.

Fine arts — one credit: Students must earn one fine arts credit. They may earn it in a traditional fine arts course or in a course such as Digital Art and Animation or 3-D Modeling and Animation or other approved courses.

Electives — five credits: These credits must be selected from an SBOE-approved list or from a locally developed course or activity that does not satisfy a specific course graduation requirement.

 

 

Thank-you, this is very helpful.  These must be their new graduation requirements with the "endorsements".  A few years ago, it was that distinguished versus regular diploma or whatever they were calling it.  I don't know why I had it in my head that the public school kids have to take physics to graduate.

This is only 22 credits...  I thought high schoolers here needed 26 or somewhere around that number.

And now I'm worried that we have no intention of taking economics - Lol.

Ok, I think I am going to give them a choice, then.  One of the schools they are applying to has their entire curriculum for nursing students mapped out online and there is not a single physics course required.  They do have to take biology and chemistry, though.  I also heard Anatomy & Physiology is a huge weed-out course before nursing classes start, so I want to make sure they get that in high school.   

[....]

1 hour ago, fourisenough said:

My two nursing majors took no physics, but each completed 5 credits of high school science by doubling up senior year.

DD20: Adv Earth & Space, Bio, Chem, AP Bio, A&P

DD18: Bio, Chem, AP Chem, AP Bio, A&P

 

 

 

Yeah, us, too.  Lots of doubling up on science.  She's taken biology, chemistry (this year), forensic science, genetics & development (this year also) and freshman year was an astronomy/earth science type course.  

[....]

6 hours ago, perkybunch said:

 My dd is a senior and is also applying to a not particularly selective university with an excellent nursing program, in Texas.

 

Hmmm...  They could be applying to the same one!  ?  This sounds cheesy, but when dd told me she wanted to go to nursing school, I think I got tears in my eyes.  Everyone in my family is a nurse.  My sister (a nurse practitioner) got so excited that she was looking at the curriculum for the different nursing schools around here and she said the one we are applying to is a great choice.  She said look at the NCLEX pass rate and that shows if the school's curriculum and teachers are solid.  

[....]

8 hours ago, regentrude said:

Just a heads-up: a future doctor (or anybody who majors in biological sciences) will have to take two semesters of physics in college.

 

Yeah, we DID have to take physics 1 and 2 in college (I have a degree in biological sciences).  I need to mention that to ds15.  I don't think he quite knows what he wants to major in as an undergrad, yet.  I think he is interested in majoring in kinesiology and for that, I'm not sure if they take physics (I'm going to take a guess that they do).  

[regentrude]

54 minutes ago, Evanthe said:

  I think he is interested in majoring in kinesiology and for that, I'm not sure if they take physics (I'm going to take a guess that they do).  

Very likely. My DS is majoring in exercise science and is required to take physics. 

[prairiewindmomma]

TBH, I think you should teach physics. If they are headed towards nursing school, if they've already hit their two years of languages or a year of music, those would be areas where you could free up science.  I'll even suggest that they should aim towards an algebra-based physics.  Working on rate problems and some of those other basic formulas will give them good practice for the math they'll need in nursing (calculating doses, iv rates, etc.).

[Melissa in Australia]

Physics in the last 2 years of high school here is an elective. of my 4 children who have finished homeschooling only the oldest did Physics - HE also did Physics open Uni course before going to UNiversity as a prerequisite. He studied Aerospace Engineering.

All my others did not do Physics after year 8. two other sons studied Diploma of Conservation and Land management - biology was their focus.

DD would have benefited from doing some physics but was apposed to the idea She did Computer Animation, and Digital Design Open Uni  instead

 

 

 

[AngieW in Texas]

About 22 credits vs. 26. 26 credits is for Foundations with Endorsements. This is the equivalent of graduating under the old recommended plan.

Graduating under just Foundations is the equivalent of graduating under the old minimum plan. 

I didn't include the other 4 required credits because they are different depending on which endorsement you graduate under. If you go to the link that I had in my previous post, it gave the requirements for each of the endorsements. They all require 26 credits which consist of the Foundations requirements and something more as outlined below:

School districts and campuses are not required to offer all of the endorsements outlined below. If districts choose to offer only one endorsement it must be the Multidisciplinary Studies endorsement.

Science, technology, engineering and mathematics endorsement

STEM is the only endorsement that requires Algebra II, Chemistry and Physics. A student pursuing a STEM endorsement must complete all other graduation requirements and either:

• A coherent sequence of four or more CTE credits, including at least one advanced CTE course, and a course that is the third level or higher course in a sequence; or
• A coherent sequence of four credits in computer science selected from an approved list; or
• Three credits in mathematics by completing Algebra II and two additional math credits for which Algebra II is a prerequisite; or
• Four credits in science by completing Chemistry, Physics and two additional science courses; or 
• Algebra II, Chemistry, Physics and a coherent sequence of three additional credits from no more than two disciplines represented by the options listed above.

Business and industry endorsement

A student earning a business and industry endorsement must complete all graduation requirements plus either:

• A coherent sequence of courses for four or more CTE credits that includes at least two courses in the same career cluster,  and an advanced CTE course. The courses may be selected from a list of career development or CTE innovative courses approved by the commissioner of education, but the final course in the sequence must be obtained from one of the career clusters relating to: Agriculture, Food, and Natural Resources; Architecture and Construction; Arts, Audio/Video Technology, and Communications; Business Management and Administration; Finance; Hospitality and Tourism; Information Technology; Manufacturing; Marketing; Transportation, Distribution, and Logistics; Career Prep I or II and Problems and Solutions if the course addresses a career from a field listed above; or
• Four English elective credits to include three levels in public speaking, debate, advanced broadcast journalism, advanced newspaper journalism, or advanced yearbook journalism; or 
• Four technology applications credits to be selected from a list; or
• A coherent sequence of four credits from the above options.

Public services endorsement

A student earning a public services endorsement must complete
all other graduation requirements and either:

• A coherent sequence of four or more credits in CTE with at least two credits from the same career cluster, and at least one advanced CTE course, which includes any course that is the third or higher course in a sequence. The final course must be obtained from a CTE career cluster relating to Education and Training; Government and Public Administration; Health Science; Human Services; or Law, Public Safety, Corrections, and Security); Career Prep I or II and Problems and Solutions if the course addresses a career from a field listed above;  or
• Four courses in JROTC.

Arts and humanities endorsement

A student earning an arts and humanities endorsement must complete all other graduation requirements and either:

• Five social studies courses; or
• Four levels of the same language other than English; or
• Two levels of the same language other than English and two levels of a different language in languages other than English; or
• Four levels of American Sign Language; or
• A coherent sequence of four credits, selecting courses from one or two categories or disciplines in fine arts or innovative courses approved by the commissioner; or
• Four English elective credits from an approved list.

Multidisciplinary studies endorsement

A student earning a multidisciplinary studies endorsement must complete all other graduation requirements and either:

• Four advanced courses that prepare a student to successfully enter the workforce or postsecondary education without remediation from within one endorsement area or among multiple endorsement areas that are not in a coherent sequence; or
• Four credits in each of the four foundation subject areas to include English IV and Chemistry and/or Physics; or
• Four credits in Advanced Placement, International Baccalaureate, or dual credit selected from English, math, science, social studies, economics, languages other than English, or fine arts.

Performance acknowledgements and Distinguished Level of Achievement

A student can earn performance acknowledgements in several different areas including:

• outstanding performance in a dual-credit course
• outstanding performance in bilingualism and biliteracy
• outstanding performance on a College Board Advanced Placement test or International Baccalauereate exam
• outstanding performance on the PSAT, ACT-PLAN, the SAT, or the ACT; or earning a nationally or internationally recognized business or industry certification or license. 

The performance acknowledgement will be noted on the student’s transcript.

The requirements for the distinguished level of achievement are the same requirements to be eligible for admission to a public Texas university under the automatic top 10 percent law. 

To earn this distinguished level of performance, a student must successfully complete four credits in math, including Algebra II; four credits in science; and the remaining graduation requirements; and earn at least one more endorsement. 

[G5052]

Mine did biology, chemistry, and physics and one additional science in high school. I wanted to cover all the bases for whatever they decided to do in life.

As it turned out, both liked physics best, and chose that for their one year in college of a lab-based science. One is an accounting major, and one is an English major. The college they attend also has a superb professor for that level of physics, so it is a win all around. They actually use Hewitt's college-level text, which is really well done IMHO. My older one used a previous edition in high school, and both watched his videos in high school.

Edited July 30, 2018 by G5052

[....]

That's interesting.  It sounds like my kids basically have the equivalent of the Arts & Humanities endorsement.