Guest Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 Dare I even answer? Probably shouldn’t... To me, it is not whether you have things and can afford things or not. It is in how you live with those things, talk about them, display them. Examples from IRL experience: I do not think it is wrong for a mom to buy genuine gold/gemstone jewlry for a child. Even for a baby. If you bought your baby genuine gold and diamond earrings and got her (or his?) ears pierced for the first birthday, I don’t think that is conspicuous. But, if you say to me, “see her bracelet? I specifically bought that one, in New York City, because nobody else around here has one like it. Almost no jewelry stores even sell bangle bracelets that tiny, and those that do never have that style. It was over $300.00.†And then smile a self-satisfied smile, I’m gonna think you’re an ass. I don’t think it is wrong to buy a collection of Gizmos from an antique store just because you enjoy how they look and you want them in your house. If your budget can handle that, fill yer boots. But, if you say it to me like this: “Thank you, I love them. I got them at Joe Blow’s Antique store....see the engraving on the display case? The display case was not meant to be sold, but I told them, ‘I only want the gizmos with the display case; I will pay any amount to have it as a whole set†- I mean, can you imagine that some people only buy ONE gizmo? What is the point of *that*? It only makes sense as a set in the display case. So they eventually sold me the whole thing. My husband about crapped his pants when I told him, too, haha.†I’m going to think you’re an ass. If you’re telling me how sad you are that you had to quit your job to care for your mother, and then you blurt out, “I have seven Coach purses!†(Because, I guess, taking care of your dying mom does not make up for not being able to buy an 8th Coach purse?) I’m gonna think you’re an ass. So, for me, the line is not about simply having something nice. It is about how one tries to make sure everyone knows they have something nice. You know, conspicuously. I also have had internal conflicts about owning some nice things because it was outside of my comfort zone. I had a hard time feeling comfortable in 2007, when we bought our first really nice, almost brand-new car, especially in my cohort of homeschool mom with aging minivans. I drove our old car a lot of the time because I felt conspicuous in the nice car. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amy g. Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 Dare I even answer? Probably shouldn’t... To me, it is not whether you have things and can afford things or not. It is in how you live with those things, talk about them, display them. Examples from IRL experience: I do not think it is wrong for a mom to buy genuine gold/gemstone jewlry for a child. Even for a baby. If you bought your baby genuine gold and diamond earrings and got her (or his?) ears pierced for the first birthday, I don’t think that is conspicuous. But, if you say to me, “see her bracelet? I specifically bought that one, in New York City, because nobody else around here has one like it. Almost no jewelry stores even sell bangle bracelets that tiny, and those that do never have that style. It was over $300.00.†And then smile a self-satisfied smile, I’m gonna think you’re an ass. I don’t think it is wrong to buy a collection of Gizmos from an antique store just because you enjoy how they look and you want them in your house. If your budget can handle that, fill yer boots. But, if you say it to me like this: “Thank you, I love them. I got them at Joe Blow’s Antique store....see the engraving on the display case? The display case was not meant to be sold, but I told them, ‘I only want the gizmos with the display case; I will pay any amount to have it as a whole set†- I mean, can you imagine that some people only buy ONE gizmo? What is the point of *that*? It only makes sense as a set in the display case. So they eventually sold me the whole thing. My husband about crapped his pants when I told him, too, haha.†I’m going to think you’re an ass. If you’re telling me how sad you are that you had to quit your job to care for your mother, and then you blurt out, “I have seven Coach purses!†(Because, I guess, taking care of your dying mom does not make up for not being able to buy an 8th Coach purse?) I’m gonna think you’re an ass. So, for me, the line is not about simply having something nice. It is about how one tries to make sure everyone knows they have something nice. You know, conspicuously. I also have had internal conflicts about owning some nice things because it was outside of my comfort zone. I had a hard time feeling comfortable in 2007, when we bought our first really nice, almost brand-new car, especially in my cohort of homeschool mom with aging minivans. I drove our old car a lot of the time because I felt conspicuous in the nice car. I agree with everything you said here,but I can not relate to the last paragraph. What I don’t enjoy about the people in the examples that you gave is that their mental energy is consumed with thinking about money. I don’t focus on how much my stuff costs and I don’t assume other people even care what my car costs. I’ve owned $500 cars and $70,000 cars. There are things I have enjoyed about each one. I don’t notice how much my friends spend and I don’t assume they are paying attention to my spending habits. It just isn’t on my radar. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 I agree with everything you said here,but I can not relate to the last paragraph. What I don’t enjoy about the people in the examples that you gave is that their mental energy is consumed with thinking about money. I don’t focus on how much my stuff costs and I don’t assume other people even care what my car costs. I’ve owned $500 cars and $70,000 cars. There are things I have enjoyed about each one. I don’t notice how much my friends spend and I don’t assume they are paying attention to my spending habits. It just isn’t on my radar. I understand that, but I felt “noticeable†in that car. I felt like I was “different†or that people would not relate to me because I seemed fancy. People knew I got a new car and it was fancy and I felt a little embarrassed to be in it. I also have an “unworthy†issue, so I’m sure that is part of it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ausmumof3 Posted November 30, 2017 Author Share Posted November 30, 2017 Dare I even answer? Probably shouldn’t... To me, it is not whether you have things and can afford things or not. It is in how you live with those things, talk about them, display them. Examples from IRL experience: I do not think it is wrong for a mom to buy genuine gold/gemstone jewlry for a child. Even for a baby. If you bought your baby genuine gold and diamond earrings and got her (or his?) ears pierced for the first birthday, I don’t think that is conspicuous. But, if you say to me, “see her bracelet? I specifically bought that one, in New York City, because nobody else around here has one like it. Almost no jewelry stores even sell bangle bracelets that tiny, and those that do never have that style. It was over $300.00.†And then smile a self-satisfied smile, I’m gonna think you’re an ass. I don’t think it is wrong to buy a collection of Gizmos from an antique store just because you enjoy how they look and you want them in your house. If your budget can handle that, fill yer boots. But, if you say it to me like this: “Thank you, I love them. I got them at Joe Blow’s Antique store....see the engraving on the display case? The display case was not meant to be sold, but I told them, ‘I only want the gizmos with the display case; I will pay any amount to have it as a whole set†- I mean, can you imagine that some people only buy ONE gizmo? What is the point of *that*? It only makes sense as a set in the display case. So they eventually sold me the whole thing. My husband about crapped his pants when I told him, too, haha.†I’m going to think you’re an ass. If you’re telling me how sad you are that you had to quit your job to care for your mother, and then you blurt out, “I have seven Coach purses!†(Because, I guess, taking care of your dying mom does not make up for not being able to buy an 8th Coach purse?) I’m gonna think you’re an ass. So, for me, the line is not about simply having something nice. It is about how one tries to make sure everyone knows they have something nice. You know, conspicuously. I also have had internal conflicts about owning some nice things because it was outside of my comfort zone. I had a hard time feeling comfortable in 2007, when we bought our first really nice, almost brand-new car, especially in my cohort of homeschool mom with aging minivans. I drove our old car a lot of the time because I felt conspicuous in the nice car. I totally understand about the car thing. DH has a nicer new car due to pay structure and tax. He wants me to drive it but I'm really reluctant because I feel like "but I'm not that person. I don't drive fancy cars". Plus I hate the size of it and know it will cause issues if the kids damage it. Actually I think that's one of the reasons I hate having fancy stuff. I hate feeling bad if we do something stupid and it gets wrecked. I'm clumsy and the kids are kids and I don't want to be emotional upset about something that's just material goods. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternalsummer Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 Quill, that all sounds like poor behavior to me, too, except the car thing - I can get the feeling of being somewhat out-of-place with your social cohort, though. If I drove a Ferrari to pick up the kids at school, that would make me self-conscious. But I don't think that would make me a bad person for owning a Ferrari, assuming I had bought it for some reason other than to show off by driving the kids to school in it (that is to say, I'd have to have bought it to drive super fast down the highway or because I liked zooming around the neighborhood or because I thought it was safer or something). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephanieZ Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 No, I don't think it's immoral or unethical. Depending on the details, I think it depends on how you define conspicuous consumption whether it is tacky or unclassy to display wealth. Morals and ethics have to do with right and wrong. One could argue that it is immoral or unethical to HAVE or KEEP vast wealth, but displaying it is just about manners, not morals, IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amy g. Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 On the car thing...Dh was driving my beloved suburban when it was totaled. It wasn’t his fault, but he felt so bad about it. When we got the insurance check, I could go pay cash for whatever I wanted to replace it. I could have gotten a minivan and picked the difference, but we had one for a rental after the accident and it my back so much to drive it. I’m all about the comfort. I test drove all of the luxury brands and ended up not liking how cramped or uncomfortable they felt to me. I absolutely drew the line at buying a new car. I have learned from the hive that there are times when buying a new car can be a good financial decision but I told Dh, “We just aren’t new car people. That will not make me happy at all.†So he dropped that idea. I ended up getting a top of the line, used Navigator XL. I enjoy almost everything about it. A month after getting it, a lady hit it in the swim team parking lot. She was so upset that I no longer had this nice new looking thing. The damage is noticeable but doesn’t affect the parts of it that I enjoy, so when I got the insurance money, I sent it to my son instead of repairing cosmetic damages. I figured it would improve his life more than it would mine. I still hadn’t spent all of the insurance money, so I also got my Dh a beautiful Mercedes convertible from the 70s. That car is so fun to drive and cost around $6,000. Oh my goodness. He got so much grief from his siblings about the extravagance, which was pretty funny because none of them drive $6,000 cars. People are funny about what we judge each other for, but that is okay too. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 Quill, that all sounds like poor behavior to me, too, except the car thing - I can get the feeling of being somewhat out-of-place with your social cohort, though. If I drove a Ferrari to pick up the kids at school, that would make me self-conscious. But I don't think that would make me a bad person for owning a Ferrari, assuming I had bought it for some reason other than to show off by driving the kids to school in it (that is to say, I'd have to have bought it to drive super fast down the highway or because I liked zooming around the neighborhood or because I thought it was safer or something). Yeah - I didn’t think it made me a bad person. It just made me feel like...an imposter. Like, I’m not a fancy-car gal. I guess I would feel the same way if someone dressed me for a fancy gala and let me wear their Vera Wang dress. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrganicJen Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 Conspicuous consumption is done to enhance social prestige. Yes, its immoral, because it is wasteful. The item consumed doesn't have to be expensive. Northface jackets and Uggs for ex. I think this is dependant on so many factors though. Personally, I sew literally all of my own clothes. But I have very skinny legs and have an extremely difficult time finding any boots that fit. I needed boots that fit, had good treads for walking in the winter, and were warm. I tried dozens and the ones that fit and met all the other reqirements were Uggs so I chose those. Brand names mean nothing to me, as I said I make all my own clothes, even bras, but there are reasons people buy certain things beyond conspicuous consumption. I don't think just because someone owns certain name brand expensive items they are always trying to enhance social prestige. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 St Anthony's, 1970's and 80's, St Michael's 1990's - definitely preached a different view on wealth to some of y'all here. Maybe we had ultra radical priests or something. Everything I ever learned about money, waste, consumption, consumerism, I learned from church. Them there are Christian values - or so I was told over the first 32 years of my life! I am surprised to see alternative readings of wealth from a Christian position, but as I haven't been Christian for 15 years, I guess I won't say more than that. Lifelong Catholic here and it was always “help the poor†that was emphasized, rather than “wealth is evilâ€. We have a moral obligation to give back to the community with our “time, treasure, and talentâ€. Writing a check was not seen as better than volunteering when it came to charitable donations. Sounds like maybe your priest was a bit too heavily into the whole Marxist “liberation theology†thing Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 I don’t notice how much my friends spend and I don’t assume they are paying attention to my spending habits. It just isn’t on my radar. Ditto. I celebrate with those who celebrate when they have pictures (of travel) or want to show me their new car or whatever. It never occurred to me that I should be bothered by something or hung up on how much they paid for it. We might talk cost, but when it happens, it sure doesn't bother me. It's just part of sharing. I'm happy as long as they are happy with whatever they got or wherever they went. I guess that's another way Creekland is weird. St Anthony's, 1970's and 80's, St Michael's 1990's - definitely preached a different view on wealth to some of y'all here. Maybe we had ultra radical priests or something. Everything I ever learned about money, waste, consumption, consumerism, I learned from church. Them there are Christian values - or so I was told over the first 32 years of my life! I am surprised to see alternative readings of wealth from a Christian position, but as I haven't been Christian for 15 years, I guess I won't say more than that. I get my views from reading the Bible as a whole. It tells me my relationship with God is solely between me and God and I'm not to judge others. I teach my kids. I present ideas to other people's kids (on overall values - we don't teach faith at school). In the Bible I read there are both rich and poor. We're neither (except on a world scale, of course), but overall the concept I get (besides don't judge others - that's God's job) is to love God and love my neighbor - and not to love money. Having money is not evil, nor was the lady who took expensive perfume and spread it on Jesus's feet. Seems there's a balance to everything even for Christians. FWIW, this story is in each of the four Gospels. It seems pretty important to let Christians know it's not always awful to spend money on things and that not every expensive purchase needs to be kept hidden in a closet. (It's likely also not a suggestion to always spend large amounts of money, but special occasions? Doesn't seem to be a problem - not even the party thrown for the Prodigal Son or the Wedding Feast where Jesus turned water into wine.) https://www.esv.org/Matthew+26:6%E2%80%9313;Mark+14:3%E2%80%939;Luke+7:36%E2%80%9350;John+12:1%E2%80%938/ "3 bAnd while he was at cBethany in the house of Simon the leper,1 as he was reclining at table, a woman came with an alabaster flask of ointment of pure nard, very costly, and she broke the flask and poured it over his head. 4 There were some who said to themselves indignantly, “Why was the ointment wasted like that? 5 For this ointment could have been sold for more than three hundred denarii2 and dgiven to the poor.†And they escolded her.6 But Jesus said, “Leave her alone. Why do you trouble her? She has done a beautiful thing to me. 7 For fyou always have the poor with you, and whenever g you want, you can do good for them. But hyou will not always have me. 8 iShe has done what she could; she has anointed my body beforehand jfor burial. 9 And truly, I say to you, wherever kthe gospel is proclaimed in the whole world, what she has done will be told lin memory of her.â€" 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol in Cal. Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 (edited) But I was secretly laughing because I know that we spent far less on that car than most people spent on their daily drivers. It was a hoot. This is ALWAYS me. Right now my main car is a 2001 Mercedes Coupe. It looks like a million bucks. The dealership turns up its nose at it because it's so old. But other people think it's SO fancy. I only paid $10,500 for it--I put it on my credit card using Paypal to purchase it from a private party on Craigslist. It had about 80K miles on it, and was already 'older'. Now it's actually old. I'm willing to bet that all those 'other people' are driving cars that they bought new, and paid a lot more than I did for it. (Having said that, although it is very fun to drive and comfortable, I feel kind of conspicuous in it at times.) (But oh! The heated seats! TWO settings of heat! And the self-adjusting glare protection in the rear view mirror! And the climate control! I've never had a car this comfortable before. I'm getting pretty spoiled.) Edited December 1, 2017 by Carol in Cal. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ausmumof3 Posted December 1, 2017 Author Share Posted December 1, 2017 This is ALWAYS me. Right now my main car is a 2001 Mercedes Coupe. It looks like a million bucks. But the dealership turns up its nose at it because it's so old. But other people think it's SO fancy. I only paid $10,500 for it--I put it on my credit car using Paypal. It had about 80K miles on it, and was already 'older'. Now it's actually old. I'm willing to bet that all those 'other people' are driving cars that they bought new, and paid a lot more than I did for it. (Having said that, although it is very fun to drive and comfortable, I feel kind of conspicuous in it at times.) (But oh! The heated seats! TWO settings of heat! And the self-adjusting glare protection in the rear view mirror! And the climate control! I've never had a car this comfortable before. I'm getting pretty spoiled.) Totally nonjudgmental enquiring minds question. I've always been warned that the repair costs are insanely high on older "prestige" vehicles. Have you found that to be true or is it an urban myth? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MamaBearTeacher Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 The worst form of cc I have seen is people who spend a lot on themselves and put down others who don't (either by choice or because they lack wealth). Whether they do this to their face or behind their backs it is wrong. And what is the absolute worst is if they teach their kids to judge other children on the basis of how expensive their clothes are or what kind of car they have etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol in Cal. Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 Totally nonjudgmental enquiring minds question. I've always been warned that the repair costs are insanely high on older "prestige" vehicles. Have you found that to be true or is it an urban myth? Repair costs are insanely high on Mercedes in general, compared with my usual Toyotas. And they are less reliable, too, I understand, although mine has been great so far. But I don't feel the need to go pay the dealer for every single 'check' that they do, nor to tweak every little thing that goes bad into perfection. I keep up the radiator fluid and oil religiously. Other stuff I might or might not fix. For instance, some of the buttons on my climate control system do not work at all. We figured out a way to adjust it without them that is acceptable to me, so I'm not fixing it. I got a quote from a neighborhood guy, and it was a lot of money--not worth it to me. However, when it started intermittently not turning on when it was supposed to, so that I'd be driving in an oven hot car for 20 minutes before the AC even started up, I did get that fixed--it was the fan motor, and cost between $150 and $200--not cheap but not insanely high, and I felt that it was not just worth it but necessary. My guess is that we won't limp this car along once things start going really wrong on it like we do our Toyotas. I have a Camry that has over 240K miles on it, and I'm happy to put money into it because it's not very often and it's not ever very much. But the same kinds of repairs on the Mercedes would probably cost a TON more, and I am unikely to want to pay for those. We'll see. It's at around 135K miles now, so I figure I have about 60-75K more miles before things start to go badly wrong on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ausmumof3 Posted December 1, 2017 Author Share Posted December 1, 2017 Repair costs are insanely high on Mercedes in general, compared with my usual Toyotas. And they are less reliable, too, I understand, although mine has been great so far. But I don't feel the need to go pay the dealer for every single 'check' that they do, nor to tweak every little thing that goes bad into perfection. I keep up the radiator fluid and oil religiously. Other stuff I might or might not fix. For instance, some of the buttons on my climate control system do not work at all. We figured out a way to adjust it without them that is acceptable to me, so I'm not fixing it. I got a quote from a neighborhood guy, and it was a lot of money--not worth it to me. However, when it started intermittently not turning on when it was supposed to, so that I'd be driving in an oven hot car for 20 minutes before the AC even started up, I did get that fixed--it was the fan motor, and cost between $150 and $200--not cheap but not insanely high, and I felt that it was not just worth it but necessary. My guess is that we won't limp this car along once things start going really wrong on it like we do our Toyotas. I have a Camry that has over 240K miles on it, and I'm happy to put money into it because it's not very often and it's not ever very much. But the same kinds of repairs on the Mercedes would probably cost a TON more, and I am unikely to want to pay for those. We'll see. It's at around 135K miles now, so I figure I have about 60-75K more miles before things start to go badly wrong on it. That doesn't sound too bad. We are hitting expensive repairs with our older "normal" car and it's only done 155K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol in Cal. Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 That doesn't sound too bad. We are hitting expensive repairs with our older "normal" car and it's only done 155K When your starting point is such a low purchase price, it's much easier to let a car go and move on. 10.5K is the most we have paid for a vehicle since 1989. We have saved SO MUCH money by buying used cars essentially for cash. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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