An Article by Mary Hood about Accreditation

[happybeachbum]

https://www.ghea.org/pages/articles/focus.php?ID=3&parent=3  This reminds me of some posts here about Classical Conversations and the closing of many Co-ops when they form in their cities/towns. 

 

 

[HomeAgain]

The article feels very disjointed and lacks a central argument.  Accreditation is good because...accreditation is bad because....and it hinges on accreditation and Christianity (or, rather, Protestant American Christianity) and fear of what accreditation will do.  Very little is backed up with facts.

 

I can write a similar article using my own experience.  We chose a state-accredited high school program for our son's 9th grade year.  It was not a damning situation as the author of the article suggests. "For Christians who believe that they are responsible to God, rather than the government, this is already an unacceptable situation." 

I was responsible to my son.  Not God, not government, but the child standing in front of me who should not be limited in choice based on my fear. We looked at the short and long term.  High school is a time of self-awareness, and we didn't want him to be limited if he ever did choose to go to a brick & mortar school.  That's why we limited our search for programs to ones accepted by the state.  My friend schooled her kids at home all through school, but chose dual enrollment at the community college for her kids' 11th& 12th grade years.  She chose to be responsible to the kids in front of her: not limiting them based on fear.  All the kids went to colleges of their choice.

 

The article could have been better written. It could have included facts and statistics, entry requirements to sample schools...but it didn't.

[8filltheheart]

I agree that the article is poorly written and lacks focus. I do, however, have concerns about the trend today for homeschoolers to believe that they need to have their homeschool "validated" by outsourced classes. It has nothing to do with Christianity (and I totally do not understand her argument there and I am a Christian). My perspective has everything to do with homeschooling being a legally valid option. If it is legally valid, then high school classes taught at home are legally valid. The growing belief within the homeschooling community that colleges need proof that your classes are worth something undermines the validity of the homeschooling premise.

 

Outsourcing bc you want to is different from outsourcing bc you believe you have to. It is a fine line, but the perspective is very different. I outsource when it is the best choice for my kids. I do not, however, believe I need to outsource for college admissions. Believing the premise that colleges must perceive that what you are doing at home must automatically be inferior to outsourced classes is a huge step backward in my opinion. I homeschool precisely bc what I am doing at home is a better fit for my kids. And typically that "fit" is academically superior. I refuse to submit to any premise that my classes are lacking bc I am the primary teacher. That attitude used to be the dominant one I encountered in the homeschool community. Now it is definitely in the minority.

[Sneezyone]

I agree that the article is poorly written and lacks focus. I do, however, have concerns about the trend today for homeschoolers to believe that they need to have their homeschool "validated" by outsourced classes. It has nothing to do with Christianity (and I totally do not understand her argument there and I am a Christian). My perspective has everything to do with homeschooling being a legally valid option. If it is legally valid, then high school classes taught at home are legally valid. The growing belief within the homeschooling community that colleges need proof that your classes are worth something undermines the validity of the homeschooling premise.

 

Outsourcing bc you want to is different from outsourcing bc you believe you have to. It is a fine line, but the perspective is very different. I outsource when it is the best choice for my kids. I do not, however, believe I need to outsource for college admissions. Believing the premise that colleges must perceive that what you are doing at home must automatically be inferior to outsourced classes is a huge step backward in my opinion. I homeschool precisely bc what I am doing at home is a better fit for my kids. And typically that "fit" is academically superior. I refuse to submit to any premise that my classes are lacking bc I am the primary teacher. That attitude used to be the dominant one I encountered in the homeschool community. Now it is definitely in the minority.

 

I don't believe people outsource primarily because they fear the quality of their home courses. I think they do so because they do not know, or cannot be assured, that they can or desire to homeschool all the way through high school. For many new homeschoolers, homeschooling is not an ideological choice but one of convenience or temporary need. These folks should be concerned about whether the courses you've provided will be acceptable to their K-12 school of choice, community college or university.

[8filltheheart]

K12 schools are not going to accept an online homeschool provider course or co-op class any more than one completed at home except possibly (and even then there is no guarantee) if the course is accredited by specific accrediting agencies.

 

Fwiw, community colleges and colleges are far more likely not to care about the source of high school courses than public high schools. I do not think colleges see any difference between a co-op class, an online homeschool provider class,and a home-brewed class. Colleges want to see test scores. They want to see course descriptions/resource lists. They want recommenders.

 

If someone is unsure about homeschooling through high school, they need an alternative plan than homeschooling part of high school and then entering the public high school unless they have confirmed ahead of time that the public school will allow students to enter at the appropriate level if they used "provider x,y,z." I'd want that confirmation in writing.

[Sneezyone]

Who says it's just a matter of credit? I deliberately didn't say that because it's also an issue of content coverage. A child transferring into 4th grade behind in any area may have just as hard a time transitioning as an 8th grader who's not allowed in advanced courses or a 10th grader who's unable to graduate with his/her class. Outsourcing can provide some measure of confidence that what is covered is equivalent to what is offered in a B&M school. Everyone does not homeschool for the same reasons. Why does it bother you so much that people personalize their child's education to suit themselves? Isn't that what homeschooling is about? It's not a zero sum game.

 

On the one hand you say CCs don't care but K12 does care so it'd be foolish not to find something (and it needn't be accredited) that will pass muster with your LOCAL school. They do not all impose accreditation as a requirement. That *is* a valid alternative plan.

Edited October 14, 2017 by Sneezyone

[....]

SWB has two posts on her Facebook page about this topic.  I don't know how to link it on here, but if you scroll down her FB page, it's her entry on September 21st and 20th.  Her last line in one post is, "Saying you're accredited doesn't mean a whole lot."  It says she has a new book coming out in January and I'm assuming accreditation and homeschooling is one of the topics in the book.  (?)

 

My kids are getting a much, much better education than we did.  I don't want our homeschool to be viewed as junk, because we're not using an accredited program.  *shrug*

[mamaraby]

Outsourcing bc you want to is different from outsourcing bc you believe you have to. It is a fine line, but the perspective is very different. I outsource when it is the best choice for my kids. I do not, however, believe I need to outsource for college admissions. Believing the premise that colleges must perceive that what you are doing at home must automatically be inferior to outsourced classes is a huge step backward in my opinion. I homeschool precisely bc what I am doing at home is a better fit for my kids. And typically that "fit" is academically superior. I refuse to submit to any premise that my classes are lacking bc I am the primary teacher. That attitude used to be the dominant one I encountered in the homeschool community. Now it is definitely in the minority.

I agree with you, but there are some rumblings out there from people who have found that their job prospects were limited because they did not have a high school diploma from an accredited institution. In fact, my state passed legislation a couple of years ago to narrowly address the issue specifically because someone was working as an aide in a private Christian school and the state DOE did not recognize their homeschool high school diploma. They ended up inserting language to address that one particular instance at the request of that one school and the HSLDA and contrary to what the statewide organization had wanted (because our statewide organization maintains the same that you do - that a homeschool high school diploma is a valid diploma).

 

I know that accreditation can be a scam (i.e. college degree mills), but the last thing I want to do is limit my kid’s choices post high school. I can see why parents feel it necessary. That fear, my school districts’s all or nothing policy, and the fact that I can’t spend a bunch of money outsourcing is why my kids will go to public school for high school.

 

I have nothing to say on the “duty to God†issue because I believe in no gods. My duty has always been to my kid.

Edited October 14, 2017 by mamaraby

[8filltheheart]

I don't believe people outsource primarily because they fear the quality of their home courses. I think they do so because they do not know, or cannot be assured, that they can or desire to homeschool all the way through high school. For many new homeschoolers, homeschooling is not an ideological choice but one of convenience or temporary need. These folks should be concerned about whether the courses you've provided will be acceptable to their K-12 school of choice, community college or university.

 Can you please explain what you mean? Acceptable how?

Who says it's just a matter of credit? I deliberately didn't say that because it's also an issue of content coverage. A child transferring into 4th grade behind in any area may have just as hard a time transitioning as an 8th grader who's not allowed in advanced courses or a 10th grader who's unable to graduate with his/her class. Outsourcing can provide some measure of confidence that what is covered is equivalent to what is offered in a B&M school. Everyone does not homeschool for the same reasons. Why does it bother you so much that people personalize their child's education to suit themselves? Isn't that what homeschooling is about? It's not a zero sum game.

On the one hand you say CCs don't care but K12 does care so it'd be foolish not to find something (and it needn't be accredited) that will pass muster with your LOCAL school. They do not all impose accreditation as a requirement. That *is* a valid alternative plan.

I am trying to understand your posts, but I am having a hard time following them. In your first post you stated that it wasn't concern about the quality of their home courses, but in the first part I bolded it does seem to be a concern about the home equivalent course.

 

In terms of the italicized, can you please point out where I said I had a problem with people personalizing their children's educations? What I said and what I firmly believe is that outsourcing because it is what is wanted is not the equivalent of outsourcing out of fear that what is done at home is not going to be accepted by colleges. It is a backward step in viewing homeschooling as a legally valid option. Homeschooling transcripts are accepted at the vast majority of colleges. Homeschool "schools" marketing has sold a false sense of security that without them, classes are not validated and that outsourcing to them brings "credibility"  to your homeschool. As noted in Evanthe's post below, outsourcing and accreditation really doesn't make that much of a difference. All non-traditional school applications are thrown into the same category.

 

In terms of the last bolded statement, I have been homeschooling since the early 90s and in multiple different states. The way things have worked in the vast majority of the locations we have lived in is that entering into ps before high school has typically been a matter of entering in at the age appropriate grade level. What was used at home, outsourced classes, online classes, etc....it is really moot from the school's perspective. The kids usually enter in on grade level. Entering ps during high school is all about the credits and what they don't accept as accredited credits aren't accepted. It doesn't matter what you used or where you outsourced unless they are accepted accredited credits.

 

If parents want to outsource classes bc that is what fits their academic needs more, then they should. But, parents should make informed decisions based on fact and know that they can teach classes at home and have successful outcomes. My focus these days is primarily on high school. I give homeschool to college workshops and I talk to parents all the time who think that their kids' co-op or Classical Conversation courses are going to be more "valid" on their students' transcripts than if they had "just" completed courses at home. That premise is just false. That is the mentality I am discussing. They have heard that those classes look better on a transcript and that they will make their students look stronger. My question for them is look better compared to what and stronger than who? Homeschoolers are not a single unit. Every homeschool applicant is assessed individually based on what they individually achieved. For some people, what is done at a co-op or Classical Conversations may be stronger than what they would do at home, but that does not make the statement a general truth. Many parents have a hard time believing that courses done completely at home with no outside teacher could ever be viewed as academically advanced courses better than a co-op or Classical Conversations. It is a foreign concept to them.

SWB has two posts on her Facebook page about this topic.  I don't know how to link it on here, but if you scroll down her FB page, it's her entry on September 21st and 20th.  Her last line in one post is, "Saying you're accredited doesn't mean a whole lot."  *

Exactly.   

I agree with you, but there are some rumblings out there from people who have found that their job prospects were limited because they did not have a high school diploma from an accredited institution. In fact, my state passed legislation a couple of years ago to narrowly address the issue specifically because someone was working as an aide in a private Christian school and the state DOE did not recognize their homeschool high school diploma. They ended up inserting language to address that one particular instance at the request of that one school and the HSLDA and contrary to what the statewide organization had wanted (because our statewide organization maintains the same that you do - that a homeschool high school diploma is a valid diploma).

I know that accreditation can be a scam (i.e. college degree mills), but the last thing I want to do is limit my kid’s choices post high school. I can see why parents feel it necessary. That fear, my school districts’s all or nothing policy, and the fact that I can’t spend a bunch of money outsourcing is why my kids will go to public school for high school.

I have nothing to say on the “duty to God†issue because I believe in no gods. My duty has always been to my kid.

The irony of today's homeschooling reality is that public high schools, some trade programs like cosmetology schools, and some direct entry low level jobs have way more problems with homeschool transcripts/diplomas than the vast majority of colleges and universities, even tippy top competive universities. My kids have all pursued post-high school education. If I had a student wanting to attend cosmetology school, I honestly don't know what my answer would be bc you are correct, there are a few situations where a homeschool diploma will limit options.

 

But, my kids have all been college bound. My teaching them at home, even when we haven't done much outsourcing at all, has not negatively impacted their college applications and has not limited their options. When my current college freshman applied to colleges, she had only outsourced Russian since 9th and worked with a Francophone 1 day/wk during 11th and the beginning of 12th. Every other subject was completed at home, no co-ops, no online schools, etc. She was accepted to every school she applied to and was awarded competitve scholarships from several. That is what parents I talk to find hard to believe. They have been repeatedly told by others that kids cannot get into college with transcripts like my dd's. Yes, they can. Not only can they, but they can be accepted into competitive schools with scholarships. (While the entire college application process is far more complicated than that synopsis, the take away is that just bc a course is outsourced, it is not automatically viewed as superior.)

 

Equally, I have outsourced plenty of courses for my kids over the yrs. I am not against outsourcing and that is not my point. (My other current college student outsourced almost all math and science during high school.)

 

The key is that parents should make sure they are educated on their own state's laws and educate themselves on college admissions in their state. Some state public university admissions are more complicated than others; NY and CA, for instance, do have more obstacles to college admissions than most other states.

[Sneezyone]

If you're not committed to homeschooling all the way through then it's appropriate to consider whether the courses (including scope and sequence, not just rigor) you're using will line up with and/or meet the requirements for the subsequent programs/institutions you want your kids to attend. You can have the most rigorous seventh grade class in the world but if you haven't covered material that is needed to mesh seamlessly with the school you want DC to attend it could be a problem.

 

In our case, the course my DD is taking at her current school for math is not aligned with the district we will be moving to. I guess we're lucky because she'll end up being a bit ahead but it could easily work in reverse. The district we're moving to does not participate in common core and offers a traditional Algebra 1 course without some of the geometry and statistics topics that common core rolls in. If I did not deliberately make sure DD was prepared for either eventuality it would be a problem for her. So I'm not just concerned with rigor, I'm also concerned with scope and sequence. Things have a way of getting missed when kids move as much as ours do, even in elementary.

 

It's true that before HS, kids are typically placed in average classes with age mates. However, 'honors' designations begin in 8th grade and math tracking begins in 6th for our new district. That is something I need to know and keep in mind for DS who will be going back around that time. They will test him with their own materials for those programs and classes, so he needs some exposure to their materials and terminology.

 

I got the impression that you were concerned with families, like mine, using outsourced classes and PS benchmarks like accreditation because it somehow undermined the perception of your approach. I don't think it does. Have to/Need to in my shoes is like potayto, potahto, a distinction without a difference.

[8filltheheart]

Have to/Need to in my shoes is like potayto, potahto, a distinction without a difference.

And from my perspective, that statement pretty much sums up the entire issue.

[Sneezyone]

And from my perspective, that statement pretty much sums up the entire issue.

 

But why does this matter to you? How do my choices for my family, and my reasons for homeschooling (which are  very different from yours) affect you? These choices, for me, have nothing to do with thinking my teaching is inferior or inadequate. Quite the contrary, I spent an hour and a half reteaching mitosis and meiosis this evening and DD knows it better now than she did after 3 hours of B&M instruction. It has to do with best fit for our family, kids and circumstances. I'm completely confident in my approach just as I'm sure you are in yours and I reject the premise that these are in tension. I've not seen any evidence presented that the proliferation of outsourced and/or accredited options has reduced opportunities for those who choose a wholly independent path.

Edited October 15, 2017 by Sneezyone

[8filltheheart]

But why does this matter to you? How do my choices for my family, and my reasons for homeschooling (which are very different from yours) affect you? These choices, for me, have nothing to do with thinking my teaching is inferior or inadequate. Quite the contrary, I spent an hour and a half reteaching mitosis and meiosis this evening and DD knows it better now than she did after 3 hours of B&M instruction. It has to do with best fit for our family, kids and circumstances. I'm completely confident in my approach just as I'm sure you are in yours and I reject the premise that these are in tension. I've not seen any evidence presented that the proliferation of outsourced and/or accredited options has reduced opportunities for those who choose a wholly independent path.

When more homeschoolers are willing to accept that accreditation is no big deal and simply accept it as a premise when it is not required, the more likely that eventually that is a real possibility and will be seen as the norm and be expected by colleges. Who will protest otherwise if the vast majority already accept it? At this point, there is not a call to require being overseen by an accrediting body, but that does not mean it will always remain that way. Believe it or not, there are those who want to control homeschoolers and limit their access and revoke many of the freedoms that have been gained over the past 3-4 decades. When people willing give them up without question or without even seeing it as a relinquishing of freedoms, that is where I wonder how long things will take to shift toward more regulation.

 

Here is a simple example of a call to regulate homeschoolers due to fraud committed by a non-homeschooler. The fact the fraud was not associated with a homeschooler but the call is to regulate homeschoolers is troubling. https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2017/09/11/revoked-admissions-offer-rochester-raises-questions-about#.WbnxzIdikVw.Facebook

 

Long and short of it is that when homeschoolers accept unnecessary regulation as expected and required when it isn't (already the case in terms of believing the necessity of outsourcing to co-ops and online courses), I agree with the pt Hood was making that it is concerning.

 

Why does my concern bother you so much? From what I understand based on these posts, more regulation and requiring accreditation would not significantly impact the way you are teaching your kids since you want to be aligned with public schools. For our family, control would significantly impact in a negative way how we approach education. I don't want my freedom to educate in a manner not at all similar to B&M schools jeopardized.

 

You don't see an issue. I do. Only the future will reveal whether or not my concerns are valid or not. I will be thrilled to be proven wrong. I hope you are right.

Edited October 15, 2017 by 8FillTheHeart

[Dmmetler]

K12 schools are not going to accept an online homeschool provider course or co-op class any more than one completed at home except possibly (and even then there is no guarantee) if the course is accredited by specific accrediting agencies.

 

Fwiw, community colleges and colleges are far more likely not to care about the source of high school courses than public high schools. I do not think colleges see any difference between a co-op class, an online homeschool provider class,and a home-brewed class. Colleges want to see test scores. They want to see course descriptions/resource lists. They want recommenders.

 

If someone is unsure about homeschooling through high school, they need an alternative plan than homeschooling part of high school and then entering the public high school unless they have confirmed ahead of time that the public school will allow students to enter at the appropriate level if they used "provider x,y,z." I'd want that confirmation in writing.

 

I will also point out that getting classes at the appropriate level may not be an option regardless. I had a high school tell me that they couldn't accept DD's COLLEGE CREDITS as proof that she had completed Algebra -because it wasn't at an accredited public or private school. None of which would have allowed her to go past Algebra 1 before 9th grade. Yeah. I have this suspicion that had we done K12 independently (with K12 being an approved charter school) through high school math vs having her do AoPS books on her own with me and DH as support as needed, they would have had some excuse because they simply didn't want to place 9th graders outside the three options that they offered for 9th grade.

 

I don't think accreditation is going to be a panacea that makes the transferring to a public school easy unless your child just happens to have also taken exactly the same courses as a PS student would have taken at the same time. And I suspect that if they have, a single SAT-10 or ITBS would serve the same purpose as a whole stack of accredited credits.

[Sneezyone]

Why does my concern bother you so much? From what I understand based on these posts, more regulation and requiring accreditation would not significantly impact the way you are teaching your kids since you want to be aligned with public schools. For our family, control would significantly impact in a negative way how we approach education. I don't want my freedom to educate in a manner not at all similar to B&M schools jeopardized.

 

You don't see an issue. I do. Only the future will reveal whether or not my concerns are valid or not. I will be thrilled to be proven wrong. I hope you are right.

 

I think it's because I find it alarmist in a HSLDA kind of way. There are unaccredited public high schools in the US right now and their graduates still get admitted to colleges using the same kinds of additional data points expected of homeschoolers. The threat you perceive is not coming from any government or regulatory agency and the article you linked doesn't include a call to regulate or restrict homeschoolers either. It examines a potential weakness in admissions processes at one institution, yes, but doesn't propose anything. In fact, the quoted admissions officer simply says homeschool applicants' test scores, resource lists, course descriptions, etc. should be examined more closely to get a sense of rigor and student performance. It seems to me that the rubicon of external validation has long-since been crossed, the only difference is whether you seek/obtain that external validation at the end of the process or somewhere in the middle.

[8filltheheart]

I think it's because I find it alarmist in a HSLDA kind of way. There are unaccredited public high schools in the US right now and their graduates still get admitted to colleges using the same kinds of additional data points expected of homeschoolers. The threat you perceive is not coming from any government or regulatory agency and the article you linked doesn't include a call to regulate or restrict homeschoolers either. It examines a potential weakness in admissions processes at one institution, yes, but doesn't propose anything. In fact, the quoted admissions officer simply says homeschool applicants' test scores, resource lists, course descriptions, etc. should be examined more closely to get a sense of rigor and student performance. It seems to me that the rubicon of external validation has long-since been crossed, the only difference is whether you seek/obtain that external validation at the end of the process or somewhere in the middle.

What external validation? SAT or ACT scores required by almost all students? That is all that is required by the vast majority of schools. Subject tests? Most don't require subject tests. The ones that do are typically competitive top schools and even then they typically request 2 (and often ask for them from ps students as well.)

 

In terms of the linked article, the article demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of homeschooling and homeschool transcripts. I print my kids' transcripts on my home printer. The big deal they are raising the alarm about is nothing more than someone inputting data and generating a print out via a company transcript maker, nothing more. There is no validation from transcript companies. It is no different than if I printed a transcript for a cat off of my home printer. It is this point that is concerning, "What Is the Risk?

So if Rochester received a fake transcript, and one can easily create one, is that a major risk with regard to homeschooled applicants? The issue matters as the number of children being homeschooled has been going up. An Education Department report in 2012 found that the number of homeschooled students was about 1.8 million and increasing."

 

You may not find the rest of the article as concerning, but as someone who had a Dd accepted to UR last yr, I know that everything stated in the rest of the article is already required by UR. The issue was not simply the transcript maker's fake transcript. The issue was an entirely created false persona. Admissions officers know that those "extras" (course descriptions, textbook lists, etc) are already being submitted. So what are they asking themselves if this happened with those already being required? (My concern.) Fwiw, this wasn't some blog piece. It was published in Inside Higher Ed which focuses on college and university issues and those at those institutions are their target audience.

 

Fwiw, my Dd submitted the following to UR: the transcript printed off my home computer, my course descriptions which included resources used, my counselor letter, my school profile, 2 letters of recommendation, an SAT score, math and Latin subject test scores and a cal CLEP score (she didn't take any APs and only had the cal CLEP score when she applied) and a list of outside honors and achievements. All of her grades were assigned by me with the exception of Russian(her only real outside course when she applied.) Those 2 subject tests were simple to take and were not required by any other school she applied to. (UR does not recognize CLEP. ) In termsof her applications in general, she was invited to numerous competitive scholarship competitions, was awarded scholarships from every school she applied to, and was one of 20 students awarded her current university's top scholarship. They didn't reject what was done in our home or ask for other proof that what I said we did was actually done.

 

I suspect when you read outside validation you interpret what that means differently than I do.

Edited October 16, 2017 by 8FillTheHeart

[Sneezyone]

What external validation? SAT or ACT scores required by almost all students? That is all that is required by the vast majority of schools. Subject tests? Most don't require subject tests. The ones that do are typically competitive top schools and even then they typically request 2 (and often ask for them from ps students as well.)

 

In terms of the linked article, the article demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of homeschooling and homeschool transcripts. I print my kids' transcripts on my home printer. The big deal they are raising the alarm about is nothing more than someone inputting data and generating a print out via a company transcript maker, nothing more. There is no validation from transcript companies. It is no different than if I printed a transcript for a cat off of my home printer. It is this point that is concerning, "What Is the Risk?

So if Rochester received a fake transcript, and one can easily create one, is that a major risk with regard to homeschooled applicants? The issue matters as the number of children being homeschooled has been going up. An Education Department report in 2012 found that the number of homeschooled students was about 1.8 million and increasing."

 

You may not find the rest of the article as concerning, but as someone who had a Dd accepted to UR last yr, I know that everything stated in the rest of the article is already required by UR. The issue was not simply the transcript maker's fake transcript. The issue was an entirely created false persona. Admissions officers know that those "extras" (course descriptions, textbook lists, etc) are already being submitted. So what are they asking themselves if this happened with those already being required? (My concern.) Fwiw, this wasn't some blog piece. It was published in Inside Higher Ed which focuses on college and university issues and those at those institutions are their target audience.

 

Fwiw, my Dd submitted the following to UR: the transcript printed off my home computer, my course descriptions which included resources used, my counselor letter, my school profile, 2 letters of recommendation, an SAT score, math and Latin subject test scores and a cal CLEP score (she didn't take any APs and only had the cal CLEP score when she applied) and a list of outside honors and achievements. All of her grades were assigned by me with the exception of Russian(her only real outside course when she applied.) Those 2 subject tests were simple to take and were not required by any other school she applied to. (UR does not recognize CLEP. ) In termsof her applications in general, she was invited to numerous competitive scholarship competitions, was awarded scholarships from every school she applied to, and was one of 20 students awarded her current university's top scholarship. They didn't reject what was done in our home or ask for other proof that what I said we did was actually done.

 

I suspect when you read outside validation you interpret what that means differently than I do.

 

Possibly, because I interpret external validation to include LoRs, test scores, outsourced course grades, DE grades, and any number of other 'outside' inputs. I agree with you that those external sorts of validation are already required of all students. Ergo, external validation, in all of these forms, is already an accepted norm. Whether it occurs at the time of college admission or the time of military enlistment or middle school/high school enrollment matters not. No one's taking anyone's word for it, whether the student is public-, private- or home-schooled. Acknowledging that isn't a threat to anyone's homeschooling. The idea of accreditation being an additional, required, hurdle also seems especially far-fetched when it's not even required of all existing public schools for all the reasons PP already said. It's not an especially useful metric.

 

http://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/blogs/stateline/2011/10/13/school-accreditation-explained-does-a-seal-of-approval-matter

 

I'm also not suggesting you linked to an invalid source, I'm suggesting the source doesn't say or imply what you claim it does. Yes, they raised an issue of concern. It's an issue of concern for all applicants. No, they did not propose additional regulations. It seems to me that the admissions officer basically said 'we'll keep doing what we're doing and look more closely at the numerous data points we already have'.

 

I guess if you don't consider anything but DE or outsourced classes as external validation, that may be where we're speaking at cross purposes. I think those are just a small piece of the puzzle though.

[8filltheheart]

Possibly, because I interpret external validation to include LoRs, test scores, outsourced course grades, DE grades, and any number of other 'outside' inputs. I agree with you that those external sorts of validation are already required of all students. Ergo, external validation, in all of these forms, is already an accepted norm. Whether it occurs at the time of college admission or the time of military enlistment or middle school/high school enrollment matters not. No one's taking anyone's word for it, whether the student is public-, private- or home-schooled. Acknowledging that isn't a threat to anyone's homeschooling. The idea of accreditation being an additional, required, hurdle also seems especially far-fetched when it's not even required of all existing public schools for all the reasons PP already said. It's not an especially useful metric.

 

http://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/blogs/stateline/2011/10/13/school-accreditation-explained-does-a-seal-of-approval-matter

 

I'm also not suggesting you linked to an invalid source, I'm suggesting the source doesn't say or imply what you claim it does. Yes, they raised an issue of concern. It's an issue of concern for all applicants. No, they did not propose additional regulations. It seems to me that the admissions officer basically said 'we'll keep doing what we're doing and look more closely at the numerous data points we already have'.

 

I guess if you don't consider anything but DE or outsourced classes as external validation, that may be where we're speaking at cross purposes. I think those are just a small piece of the puzzle though.

I do not believe the motivation behind the article was to encourage admissions to continue doing what they have already been doing. Fwiw, the quote was not from an admissions officer at UR.

 

From my perspective, I consider requesting or expecting any additional info not required from all applicants as hoop jumping. If LOR or subject tests are required from all applicants, I have no problem with them being requested. When additional requirements are placed on homeschoolers that aren't required by all applicants, I do have a problem with it. (And there are schools that already do that. URichmond is one of them.) That is what I don't want to see an increase in.

[Sneezyone]

I do not believe the motivation behind the article was to encourage admissions to continue doing what they have already been doing. Fwiw, the quote was not from an admissions officer at UR.

 

From my perspective, I consider requesting or expecting any additional info not required from all applicants as hoop jumping. If LOR or subject tests are required from all applicants, I have no problem with them being requested. When additional requirements are placed on homeschoolers that aren't required by all applicants, I do have a problem with it. (And there are schools that already do that. URichmond is one of them.) That is what I don't want to see an increase in.

.

 

The additional hoops your're referencing, and there really aren't that many more, are required of students attending unaccredited high schools of all kinds too. It's not an attack on homeschooling. If you look at the UofOregon, for ex, homeschoolers and unaccredited public HS graduates are subject to the same additional scrutiny. I won't speculate on the author's purpose but I know what was written and a call for new regulations wasn't included.

Edited October 16, 2017 by Sneezyone

[8filltheheart]

.

 

The additional hoops your're referencing, and there really aren't that many more, are required of students attending unaccredited high schools of all kinds too. It's not an attack on homeschooling. If you look at the UofOregon, for ex, homeschoolers and unaccredited public HS graduates are subject to the same additional scrutiny. I won't speculate on the author's purpose but I know what was written and a call for new regulations wasn't included.

Can you point out where I said there was an attack on homeschooling? Being concerned that there could be a shift in the future is not "alarmist." From my POV, the attitude that homeschooling laws will never change toward greater restrictions is presumptuous. Being aware of issues currently being discussed is prudent. That article is an example.

 

Fwiw, your POV is very different from mine. We are not going to find any point of agreement. I find the author of that article's comparison of homeschool transcripts to the equivalent of a cat applying to college a direct attempt to raise questions about homeschooling, especially when the focus of the article was about homeschool applicants and not fraud. (There was never any issue about the qualifications of homeschool applicants, yet that is what ended up being discussed. The real issue was fraud committed by a non-homeschooler.)

 

Fwiw, in terms of the bolded, again a difference in perspective bc by my definition not many more is more.

 

Obviously, we do not agree. At this point there is nothing else to discuss bc you think there is not an issue and I do.

[happybeachbum]

Sorry for not commenting so long.  Grande has been down off and on or really slow a for a few days.  I don't think it's an attack just a concern.  The Moores talked about similar concerns they were seeing in homeschooling years ago as well.

[happybeachbum]

SWB has two posts on her Facebook page about this topic.  I don't know how to link it on here, but if you scroll down her FB page, it's her entry on September 21st and 20th.  Her last line in one post is, "Saying you're accredited doesn't mean a whole lot."  It says she has a new book coming out in January and I'm assuming accreditation and homeschooling is one of the topics in the book.  (?)

 

My kids are getting a much, much better education than we did.  I don't want our homeschool to be viewed as junk, because we're not using an accredited program.  *shrug*

 

 

She mentioned this in a discussion a while back. She learned that accredited online schools were placed in the same pile as homeschool diplomas or something like that when she was looking into accreditation or applying.  I can't remember exactly.

[....]

She mentioned this in a discussion a while back. She learned that accredited online schools were placed in the same pile as homeschool diplomas or something like that when she was looking into accreditation or applying.  I can't remember exactly.

 

I remember her saying that, but I'm trying to remember where.  Did she post that in a thread on the high school board?  I'm going to look for it later today.

[8filltheheart]

She mentioned this in a discussion a while back. She learned that accredited online schools were placed in the same pile as homeschool diplomas or something like that when she was looking into accreditation or applying.  I can't remember exactly.

  

I remember her saying that, but I'm trying to remember where.  Did she post that in a thread on the high school board?  I'm going to look for it later today.

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/637551-is-classical-conversations-a-cultor-productor/?p=7453365