One girl didn't get a cookie ...

[Holly IN]

:rant:As a side note, I get pretty steamed when I pay for a lesson only to have it turn into a cookie-frosting session. This is not what I pay for, and it's gotten to the point where everyone feels a need to do something celebratory for every holiday. Especially at Christmas, EVERY activity in which my kids participate will feel a need to give them candy or a cheap plastic trinket or junk food party, not to mention the extra performances or recitals or special holiday projects. I think it actually detracts from the specialness of the holiday through overkill. By the time the holiday arrives we're sick of it.

 

I would feel this way too! I would be furious if the lesson were canceled in lieu of holiday celebration. :iagree:

 

Holly

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

It is my job to train the child, not let the child decide what's appropriate or not.

 

I choose to treat my child like a human being, not a dog that needs to be "trained". If I am doing a good job my child will have enough common sense to know what is appropriate and what's not. You are right, we are coming at this from very different POV.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

"God rest ye merry, gentlemen, let nothing you dismay, for Jesus Christ our Saviour was born on Christmas Day, to save us all from Satan's power when we were gone astray, oh tidings of comfort and joy, comfort and joy, oh tidings of comfort and joy."

 

That's one example. A nice tune, traditional song, wouldn't mind her singing it possibly even now when she's capable of understanding that one can sing something like acting in a play. Not at age 5 when she was still having trouble figuring out how we fit in with the dominant religious culture and understanding who we were religiously as a family.

 

See, most people would not have made a big deal out of this at all though. I think it's great you talked to the organizer afterward. I would want parents in activities I'm in charge of to do the same. If your child is struggling with religion it is a different thing than just an ordinary parent and kid situation. I would categorize that as a "special need" because the child is undergoing internal emotional turmoil.

 

As many folks have pointed out, "most" classes do not have Halloween activities in place of regularly scheduled activities without announcing them ahead of time.

 

This must be a phenomenon exclusive to homeschoolers. We generally don't sign up for anything that has "homeschool" in the title. My dd has never participated in anything- even at church- where the kids under 10 didn't at least get a themed sticker.

 

Why do you think that having the child in question "draw crosses on a piece of paper" would exclude her any less from the activity of decorating and eating cookies or make her feel any less different and singled out than her mother not having her participate in the decorating at all?

 

Because if the kid can't eat the cookie for dietary reasons and can't decorate it for religious reasons what else is there?

[bumbledeb]

I choose to treat my child like a human being, not a dog that needs to be "trained". If I am doing a good job my child will have enough common sense to know what is appropriate and what's not. You are right, we are coming at this from very different POV.

 

I think that is a little harsh. The Bible does use the expression 'train' in connection with children although I prefer to think of it in terms of 'train' a plant - give a framework to grow on. Guidance, if you will.

 

We don't know what was said in the conference between parent and child before the activity, or why the parent was caught unawares by the change in the regular routine of the class.

 

I think it is an unjustifiable leap to consider what happened as emotional abuse.

 

I believe it is also unjust to compare the scriptural 'training' of a child to the completely different training of a dog.

[mommaduck]

even at church- where the kids under 10 didn't at least get a themed sticker.

And see, that is your church, your world. There are many other churches where they would NEVER pass out a "themed sticker" for other people's holidays. (wonders how many Synagogues and Mosques pass out "themed stickers" for Christmass, Halloween, etc...why if you are anything else that this is made such a big deal for not doing so)

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

And see, that is your church, your world. There are many other churches where they would NEVER pass out a "themed sticker" for other people's holidays. (wonders how many Synagogues and Mosques pass out "themed stickers" for Christmass, Halloween, etc...why if you are anything else that this is made such a big deal for not doing so)

 

But see- we are talking MAINSTREAM activities here. My gay friends don't expect the kid's to be making traditional mother's day cards at their rainbow kids group. But they do expect this to go on when they send their kids to church. My Jewish friends don't expect their kids to make Christmas cards at the Synagogues, but they do expect this when they send their kids to school. My Muslim friend has to make special arrangements when it's prayer time. He wouldn't have to do that in his own country because over there it is mainstream to pray at a certain time. But he's not in that country.

 

I would never take my kid to a Jewish party and tell them my kid is a Christian so they are going to have to do things differently. I would expect my child to fit in as best she could and would make EVERY effort to make sure she did. It was my choice to bring my child there.

 

Now, if a place refuses to make special considerations for kids or families of different lifestyles when they are approached, that is discrimination and is very wrong. Like if some place said my child couldn't come because she is Christian or my friend's child can't come because her parents are gay. Or if my friend's boss said he couldn't pray at a certain time.

 

It comes down to common sense and religion does not excuse the absence of that. If your lifestyle is so fringe that mainstream life is offensive to you- don't expect to sign your kids up for activities at places where there are other kids from different families and like everything that goes on.

 

What really irks me is that so many people complain about having things in Spanish in our country since so many Americans speak it now. A lot of these same people want others to make exceptions for their "religion". Absurd. (our church is actually very active in amnesty efforts for illegal immigrants FWIW so I am not lumping all religions in there).

[Chika]

Oh, hey, hi everyone! What's going on? I go to bed with less than 30 posts in the thread and come back to [*blink blink*] 100+ ... wowzers.

 

Here's the deal, since I started it: We did know ahead of time that the kids could wear their costumes. I didn't take my son to the lesson right before yesterday's, my older son did, but I do now recall my younger son saying that day that they said it was going to be a party. SO it wasn't spur of the moment. I guess I assumed it would STILL include a lesson, with maybe an activity at the end or something. *Anyway* ... it wasn't emotional abuse at all, this mom's decision, just a sharing of their family standard and her helping her daughter in phrasing/telling the teacher that she wouldn't be taking part. I think at that point we still assumed that there would be a lesson eventually. But once we realized there wouldn't some of us started bowing out (self and at least two others included).

 

To me emotional abuse is "You're a worthless fool, don't talk to me, your father can't stand you, I don't care if you do this or that make up your own mind, why would you wear that? do you think it looks good? Never mind I'll do it myself, shut up," never telling your kid you like them and love them, etc. Not "This is the way we do things as a family and here's help in how to handle this situation."

[Plucky]

Yep, some people make way too much out of a cookie.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

To me emotional abuse is "You're a worthless fool, don't talk to me, your father can't stand you, I don't care if you do this or that make up your own mind, why would you wear that? do you think it looks good? Never mind I'll do it myself, shut up," never telling your kid you like them and love them, etc. Not "This is the way we do things as a family and here's help in how to handle this situation."

 

What you are describing is verbal abuse which is also a form of emotional abuse.

 

Isolation and exerting inappropriate control are also forms of emotional abuse. There is a fine line between the way people do things as a family and making a huge deal over a cookie- especially when it was known beforehand the class was having a party that was celebrating a holiday the family did not.

[Plucky]

But you don't know that happened. You are making assumptions and judgements not based on any facts. Very judgemental and unsubstantiated.

[Chika]

and making a huge deal over a cookie

 

She didn't make a huge deal over a cookie. She asked her daughter before she went and sat down to just say "We don't celebrate halloween," the daughter did, and that was that. Nothing huge about it .... perhaps *I* mistakenly made a deal out of by asking for thoughts here. And waaay back in post, what? 4? I kind of said that -- I oughtn't judge this mother or family's actions since I have no idea what their story is.

[TXMomof4]

I choose to treat my child like a human being, not a dog that needs to be "trained". If I am doing a good job my child will have enough common sense to know what is appropriate and what's not. You are right, we are coming at this from very different POV.

 

Wow. I'm fairly certain I've never been accused of treating my child like a dog for giving them guidance and discipline (i.e. training them). Isn't that what a parent does? I think I'm pretty well done here.