Instead of Latin...???

[sweetpea3829]

So I was planning on starting DS10 in Latin (instead of vocab) this coming semester.  DD11 I was undecided but leaning towards staying with vocab development.  

 

Then I came across Vocabulary From Classical Roots and thought perhaps that might be a better way to go?  The whole point in teaching DS Latin would be to bolster vocab development at a deeper level than just studying vocabulary.  From there, I figured we  could launch into a foreign language (likely French) within a year or two.  

 

So thoughts on skipping Latin and just diving deeper into a vocabulary curriculum that focuses on roots?  Any suggestions for such a vocabulary curriculum that studies roots, prefixes, etc., and not just vocab words?  

[sweetpea3829]

I'm putting Word Roots into my Rainbow cart....

 

Somebody talk me out of it and tell me why Latin is better, lol.  

[Violet Crown]

The only really good reason to learn Latin is so that one can read Latin. If the primary goal is something else, better to go after it directly, I say.

[Mr. G]

The only really good reason to learn Latin is so that one can read Latin. If the primary goal is something else, better to go after it directly, I say.

I agree. If you want your child to READ Latin, then study Latin directly.

 

If not, there are a dozen ways to get the "other" benefits of Latin more directly and efficiently.

 

Personally I have never been able to get behind the idea that there are benefits unique to Latin outside of the ability to read/write/speak Latin.

[sweetpea3829]

See that's more or less what I'm thinking.  My goal in teaching Latin would be to assist in learning other foreign languages, assist in vocabulary development, understanding roots, prefixes, suffixes, etc.  

 

I know it's the "Classical Way" to teach them Latin but, I'm thinking it might be better to just focus on the parts and then pick up a foreign language in 7th.  

[Mr. G]

See that's more or less what I'm thinking.  My goal in teaching Latin would be to assist in learning other foreign languages, assist in vocabulary development, understanding roots, prefixes, suffixes, etc.  

 

I know it's the "Classical Way" to teach them Latin but, I'm thinking it might be better to just focus on the parts and then pick up a foreign language in 7th.  

We've found studying a language directly to be the best way to learn it.

 

We did a vocabulary program that was centered around roots/prefixes/suffixes. My kids also had a very good vocabulary program in their school. They've been able to make plenty of connections between English and Spanish with out any extra special efforts from me.

[tmstranger]

I can't link to it (I tried!), but Memoria Press has a great article called Why Latin is NOT Optional.  It's on their webpage under "articles."  I thought it was really interesting, and I've decided to keep my boys in Latin for the time being. 

 

ETA: Since I can't seem to be able to paste a link...One of the arguments for Latin study that was mentioned in the article is that it goes beyond vocabulary and grammar and challenges a student's critical thinking skills.

Edited June 27, 2017 by tmstranger

[Violet Crown]

I have my doubts about the usefulness of Latin for learning Romance languages and English vocabulary (classical honeschool heresy!). Just from my own experience ... As I've mentioned before, we start Latin (gently) at an early age because it's the language of our church services and many of our domestic prayers. But my children are always surprised - though pleased - to notice that an English word has a Latin root; their attention generally has to be drawn to it, and they don't seem to gain any edge in learning English vocabulary. And I don't think my girls are particularly dull. Middle Girl hasn't found French made any easier by learning Latin first, other than some irregular French verbs being a bit quicker for her to learn. Great Girl ended up learning German, where Latin was of course no use at all.

[SevenDaisies]

I can't link to it (I tried!), but Memoria Press has a great article called Why Latin is NOT Optional.  It's on their webpage under "articles."  I thought it was really interesting, and I've decided to keep my boys in Latin for the time being. 

 

ETA: Since I can't seem to be able to paste a link...One of the arguments for Latin study that was mentioned in the article is that it goes beyond vocabulary and grammar and challenges a student's critical thinking skills.

 

Why Latin is Not Optional

 

Rest in peace, Mrs. Lowe

[Targhee]

I am of the mind that Latin teaches vocabulary, and grammar, and logic, and attention to detail. I want ALL of those things for my child, so that is why we study Latin. I do not think it is necessary, but it sure is an effective way to do all of the above! So, if you do not plan to do Latin but would like a good vocabulary program based on Classical Latin and Greek I highly recommend Caesar's English.

[Targhee]

I have my doubts about the usefulness of Latin for learning Romance languages and English vocabulary (classical honeschool heresy!). Just from my own experience ... As I've mentioned before, we start Latin (gently) at an early age because it's the language of our church services and many of our domestic prayers. But my children are always surprised - though pleased - to notice that an English word has a Latin root; their attention generally has to be drawn to it, and they don't seem to gain any edge in learning English vocabulary. And I don't think my girls are particularly dull. Middle Girl hasn't found French made any easier by learning Latin first, other than some irregular French verbs being a bit quicker for her to learn. Great Girl ended up learning German, where Latin was of course no use at all.

I found my minimal experience with Latin grammar very helpful in learning both German, and better understanding (retrospectively) the Russian I learned in high school. I caught on to much of the Russian language, but my understanding of cases and the changing of pronouns and nouns in certain cases was strictly by memorization and never really made sense. As an adult learning German cases came so much easier, as did word order in sentences.

[Guest]

We've found studying a language directly to be the best way to learn it.

 

We did a vocabulary program that was centered around roots/prefixes/suffixes. My kids also had a very good vocabulary program in their school. They've been able to make plenty of connections between English and Spanish with out any extra special efforts from me.

Care to share what that program was? We are all curious to know now!

[CrunchyGirl]

We teach Latin for the purposes our covering of logic (and diligence) and grammar as well as building vocabulary. Studying Latin also requires we think critically about and improve our English. For us, just covering roots would leave so much on the table.

[sweetpea3829]

A couple of folks have mentioned that Latin helps develop logic and critical thinking skills. Would anybody care to elaborate on that? I'm having a hard time connecting the two disciplines, unless the reference is towards the technical terms of logical argument.

 

Otherwise, I don't see it?

[blondeviolin]

A couple of folks have mentioned that Latin helps develop logic and critical thinking skills. Would anybody care to elaborate on that? I'm having a hard time connecting the two disciplines, unless the reference is towards the technical terms of logical argument.

 

Otherwise, I don't see it?

Have you studied Latin?

 

I'm only just a little bit ahead of my oldest and learning with henle. HOWEVER, Latin really does test your critical thinking ability even in the beginning because you can't just change the English word to Latin word and that works. You have to evaluate each word, the function of the word in the sentence, which ending to use, etc.

 

I studied Spanish in high school and grew up in a predominantly Spanish speaking area. Most of learning Spanish is remembering to place the adjective AFTER the noun, learning your conjugations, and then a bunch of vocabulary. Latin isn't that way.

[Guest]

A couple of folks have mentioned that Latin helps develop logic and critical thinking skills. Would anybody care to elaborate on that? I'm having a hard time connecting the two disciplines, unless the reference is towards the technical terms of logical argument.

 

Otherwise, I don't see it?

Read Cheryl Lowe's article. She covers it so well. That said- I have no intention of teaching Latin to my kids. I never have. it gives me real panic attacks looking at any Latin books. Just. Not. Gonna. Do. It. I do not believe it is the only way to develop the skills it claims it does nor is it a good path for every child/adult. Is it a concise way to learn those things? Likely. I trust Mrs. Lowe on it. But it is not the only way.

[Targhee]

Read Cheryl Lowe's article. She covers it so well. That said- I have no intention of teaching Latin to my kids. I never have. it gives me real panic attacks looking at any Latin books. Just. Not. Gonna. Do. It. I do not believe it is the only way to develop the skills it claims it does nor is it a good path for every child/adult. Is it a concise way to learn those things? Likely. I trust Mrs. Lowe on it. But it is not the only way.

I agree it isn't the only way or for everyone! I have one using Latin, but another with a language based LD who prefers to study logic explicitly (or through math). And she reads the dictionary for fun vs a vocabulary or Latin program. She did 1 year of Latin and it was evident that it wasn't doing for her what it was for her brother. This is one of the real advantages of homeschooling IMO, and is also why my heart breaks a little every time I hear someone talking about THE way to do it or "but WTM says to...".

[sweetpea3829]

Have you studied Latin?

 

I'm only just a little bit ahead of my oldest and learning with henle. HOWEVER, Latin really does test your critical thinking ability even in the beginning because you can't just change the English word to Latin word and that works. You have to evaluate each word, the function of the word in the sentence, which ending to use, etc.

 

I studied Spanish in high school and grew up in a predominantly Spanish speaking area. Most of learning Spanish is remembering to place the adjective AFTER the noun, learning your conjugations, and then a bunch of vocabulary. Latin isn't that way.

 

I've not studied Latin, no. Which is probably why I do not see this connection.  I've studied French, Spanish, even a small bit of Okinawan Japanese (for the purpose of martial arts).  I would say that when translating ANY language, the same holds true...you can't just change the word from one language to another, as the translation isn't necessarily true.  You have to evaluate the context, function, etc.  Perhaps not to the same extent as with Latin.  

 

I did read Ms. Lowe's article and...still don't really see the connection, lol.  

[SevenDaisies]

I've not studied Latin, no. Which is probably why I do not see this connection.  I've studied French, Spanish, even a small bit of Okinawan Japanese (for the purpose of martial arts).  I would say that when translating ANY language, the same holds true...you can't just change the word from one language to another, as the translation isn't necessarily true.  You have to evaluate the context, function, etc.  Perhaps not to the same extent as with Latin.  

 

I did read Ms. Lowe's article and...still don't really see the connection, lol.  

 

Take a look at this article. This one spoke to me more than the other article.

 

How Latin Develops the Mind

[Tanaqui]

I'm only just a little bit ahead of my oldest and learning with henle. HOWEVER, Latin really does test your critical thinking ability even in the beginning because you can't just change the English word to Latin word and that works. You have to evaluate each word, the function of the word in the sentence, which ending to use, etc.

 

Then any non-isolating language or, in a pinch, one with a vastly different word order would do the trick. Why not Basque (ergative-absolutive instead of nominative-accusative! fun!) or Cherokee (polysynthetic all the way!) or Swahili (16 different genders*?) instead? Those are living languages, at least - and if you aren't getting the benefit of vocabulary building from Latin roots, at the same time, you're stretching your brain precisely because you don't have those shared roots. (Or go ahead and learn Mandarin Chinese. Very useful.)

 

* I'm cheating. When there's more than two or three, we call them "noun classes".

 

I studied Spanish in high school and grew up in a predominantly Spanish speaking area. Most of learning Spanish is remembering to place the adjective AFTER the noun, learning your conjugations, and then a bunch of vocabulary. Latin isn't that way.

 

Forgive me, but this sounds to me like something I'd hear from somebody who isn't fluent in Spanish. I mean, just upon a casual glance at "help wanted" and "room for rent" signs, it seems obvious that Spanish has a very different approach to the reflexive than English does, among other things.

[Tanaqui]

Take a look at this article. This one spoke to me more than the other article.

 

How Latin Develops the Mind

 

 

Why not English grammar? English is not a classical language; it does not have the structure or form, the logic or the rules. It would be like studying modern architecture or pop music, rather than classical architecture or classical music. English doesn’t follow the rules. The Romans were disciplined, and their language marched in columns, row after row, like soldiers. English is lax and loose, bending and changing wherever it fits our fancy. We are an independent, liberty-loving people, and our language shows it. Languages reflect the culture of the people who speak them. The language influences the character of the people of a nation–and likewise the language is influenced by the people.

 

This is nonsense. This is not based on an accurate and correct understanding of the principles of linguistics - or, for that matter, of English and Latin!

 

Whether or not the article "speaks to you", it's based on false reasoning. A poor show for people who claim that the study of Latin helps improve logical thinking.

[wapiti]

Latin is inflected.  The endings of the words demonstrate their function rather than their order.  Coming from English, every Latin sentence is a puzzle, an exercise in problem-solving.  I think of it this way:  meaning in Latin is spatial, in English it is sequential.

I took Latin in high school and Spanish in college.  IME, Spanish was a breeze after having had Latin.

 

Latin is simpler for a homeschool parent to learn and teach because reading and writing are the primary inputs/outputs rather than speaking and listening.  If you'd rather not teach Latin, but would prefer a modern, spoken language, other inflected languages include German and Russian.  German might be an interesting choice to the extent that many English words have German roots.

 

Suppose you spent a semester getting a taste of Latin, just to understand how the language works, before choosing a language for long-term in-depth study?  (E.g. my kids' old school did that, a year of Latin in 7th before Spanish in 8th.)  If you were interested in a Latin taste-test, I highly recommend GSWL.  Cannot. go. wrong. with GSWL.  It would take less than a semester.

[Tanaqui]

Latin is simpler for a homeschool parent to learn and teach because reading and writing are the primary inputs/outputs rather than speaking and listening.

 

Agreed. There's also a lot of easy - and often free, though I can't speak to the quality there - material for teaching Latin, precisely because of the cultural cachet.

[sweetpea3829]

Ok...so if we can say that Latin does help develop logic and critical thinking skills, are you then omitting explicit logic and critical thinking lessons?  Or is your student obtaining all they need for logic and critical thinking solely from Latin?  

 

Because for us, I explicitly teach logic and critical thinking.  So I'm not sure that Latin *for that purpose* would be necessary.  

[wapiti]

A few more thoughts:  what I don't like about the idea of a vocab study is that, as far as I know, such programs typically are not going to involve learning through context, but rather through rote or some other method disconnected from context.  Perhaps I'm wrong about that; I haven't homeschooled in a long time now so I'm not familiar with what's out there.  FWIW, my kids are the type who learn poorly by rote (which, by the way, also means that a number of popular Latin programs would be a terrible fit for them; in contrast, I would prefer programs where learning occurs through translation, i.e., context).
 

There is no requirement that says you have to teach Latin for a quality education, just as AoPS is not the only route to practicing problem solving, even though it is a convenient one for certain students.  (Though, we could then get into defining classical ed, which in my world involves Latin and/or Greek, but I don't ascribe to neoclassical approaches.)

Edited June 28, 2017 by wapiti

[winterbaby]

This is nonsense. This is not based on an accurate and correct understanding of the principles of linguistics - or, for that matter, of English and Latin!

 

Whether or not the article "speaks to you", it's based on false reasoning. A poor show for people who claim that the study of Latin helps improve logical thinking.

 

Agreed, the passage you quoted is rank nonsense. English has no rules or structure!!! The statement that Latin "marched in columns, row after row" suggests that this person knows "Latin" only in the sense of memorizing paradigms, with no knowledge of Latin literature, where in fact words are all over the place, as the inflected structure allows them to be.

 

It's definitely an interesting challenge to look at Latin poetry, or one of Cicero's speeches, and work out which word relates to which from inflection alone with, it seems, little to no clue from word order. (Though the advanced version is to understand that where word order is uncompelled, the choice of what order to use communicates certain nuances.) It does make you  look at language differently than if you only knew English or languages relatively similar to English. It expands your mind in that sense. But it's too difficult to be worth doing if you're not interested in Latin literature for its own sake. As for help learning other languages, I think that is time better spent on those actual languages.  And this approach doesn't seem like it's a very good aid to English grammar, if it produces people who say "English doesn't follow the rules" instead of understanding that English has its own set of rules.

[Tanaqui]

The statement that Latin "marched in columns, row after row" suggests that this person knows "Latin" only in the sense of memorizing paradigms, with no knowledge of Latin literature, where in fact words are all over the place, as the inflected structure allows them to be.

 

And they certainly haven't spent much time reading work outside of textbooks - passages from private letters written by Romans who weren't the elite, or graffiti from their cities. (And for my money, that's the reason to read Latin or Greek. Nothing thrills more than voyeuristically reading their personal correspondence uh, seeing what they really wrote and thought on their own time.)

[YodaGirl]

I've not studied Latin, no. Which is probably why I do not see this connection. I've studied French, Spanish, even a small bit of Okinawan Japanese (for the purpose of martial arts). I would say that when translating ANY language, the same holds true...you can't just change the word from one language to another, as the translation isn't necessarily true. You have to evaluate the context, function, etc. Perhaps not to the same extent as with Latin.

 

I did read Ms. Lowe's article and...still don't really see the connection, lol.

Totally off-topic, but I'm curious as to what Okinawan martial arts you trained in. I trained in Goju Ryu back in high school.

[sweetpea3829]

Totally off-topic, but I'm curious as to what Okinawan martial arts you trained in. I trained in Goju Ryu back in high school.

 

 

I trained in Shorin-Ryu for most of high school.  Miss it terribly, lol.  

[Targhee]

Ok...so if we can say that Latin does help develop logic and critical thinking skills, are you then omitting explicit logic and critical thinking lessons? Or is your student obtaining all they need for logic and critical thinking solely from Latin?

 

Because for us, I explicitly teach logic and critical thinking. So I'm not sure that Latin *for that purpose* would be necessary.

We do logic and critical thinking puzzles (this is not the same as teaching these skills) and Latin. Then about 14 years old explicit logic.

[jgrabuskie]

This is a touchy subject based on all the comments. I feel brave tonight, so I will throw my 2 cents in. So, since this is my opinion, please be kind.

 

Based on my DS's learning style and a few other things we are foregoing Latin as a language. We will study Greek and Latin Vocabulary this year and begin with French next year. Since most of Latin comes to English via French, I think this will work. Most of the world studies French as a 2nd language so this will work for that too. Learning any foreign language in itself is a lesson in logic, organization, and attention to detail.

 

DS learns logic and such through mathematics, which also requires organization and attention to detail. His interests in the sciences, while Latin would be helpful (but vocabulary will help), will also require discipline, attention to detail and logic. At the same time, I as his teacher will not be driven insane teaching Latin because he is frustrated, crying or otherwise hating me for putting him through it. Yep, I tried it already and sent the Latin program to the consignment store mid-year.

 

Sorry, Mrs. Lowe but some kids and teachers are just not cut out for Latin and that is okay because there is more than one way to achieve results. I have nothing against Latin or the learning of it, I am choosing to pick my battles and reduce anxiety, frustration, and turmoil in my life.

 

Now as far as Latin to English, sure it would help, maybe, if you did well in Latin, what happens if you just don't get it? How many successful authors out there are fluent in Latin? That would be the question to ask. 

 

My advice if asked would be, do what is right for your family and don't try to measure against someone else because they do not have the same dynamics you do. For example, WTM is an excellent well thought out education plan, but I have a child with some major LDs, the education plan as written is a nightmare for him, but I use the recommendations and outline with significant modifications because I want a classical education for my son.