It's just me, stressing over math...again...

[lexi]

Ok I need some wonderful ideas from all the amazing hive members!

 

Math! Oh math! I don't know what to do about my oldest child and math. 

 

Background:

We've used RS math from A all the way up through G. She has done very well with it and I've really enjoyed it. 

 

Now I'm looking into what to do next. However, I don't feel she's ready for pre-algebra. 

 

I think she needs more help and explicit instruction in multiplying and dividing fractions, percents, decimals, ratios, and there are probably other things that I can't think of at the moment. 

 

She's using Mastering Essential Math Skills right now alongside RS G and that's what has made me realize that she is not very comfortable with many of these concepts toward the end of the book. 

 

I looked at Saxon 8/7 and glanced through the table of contents. It looked like it covered much of what she needs help with. But it's so different from RS that I wasn't sure it would really resonate with her. 

 

I looked at the Keys To series and they look great but she needs more topics than just fractions and decimals. There are other concepts that she struggles with as well. 

 

So here's my question:
 

Use Saxon 8/7

 

OR

 

Use something else to get her solid with fractions and decimals before jumping into pre-algebra - if so, what do you recommend for a child who is not very mathy??

 

OR
 

Go into a pre-algebra program and hope that she'll survive. Are some of those topics taught in some of the pre-algebra programs? (I clearly need to read through the table of contents of those). 

 

She'll be in 6th grade and I don't know that she's ready for algebra and I don't want to rush her and make her frustrated. 

 

[ondreeuh]

You could look at a 6th/7th grade math or "course 1" which is all about solidifying those skills before Pre-Algebra. I used Holt middle school math (2007) with my kid who needed a lot of review and practice, and it was a great fit. We did courses 1-3 in 6th-8th and he did awesome in Holt Algebra afterwards. The series is flexible - you could do Course 1 and then Pre-Algebra (instead of 2/3) before going into algebra. The Teacher One-Stop Planner CD-ROM has all of the tests & worksheets you could ever need to customize it to your kid. It's a great system.

 

Or something like Lial's Basic College Math, which starts with more foundational work than pre-algebra, but I believe it can lead straight into algebra. It's not very interesting visually, but many kids like it.

Edited March 15, 2017 by ondreeuh

[BusyMom5]

We will be using Saxon 8/7 next year for 7th grade.  DD gets fractions and decimals, but needs more work using them fluently.  I think it could work for you, maybe get her more into the gear for 'upper level math' with the writing stuff out, keeping numbers organized, and following a textbook.  She may be ready to go straight into Algebra 1 after 8/7, ore she may want more Pre-Algebra.  I like having the option of 2 years to prepare for Algebra rather than picking a PreAl that mine won't be quite ready for.

[Ellie]

Ok I need some wonderful ideas from all the amazing hive members!

 

Math! Oh math! I don't know what to do about my oldest child and math. 

 

Background:

We've used RS math from A all the way up through G. She has done very well with it and I've really enjoyed it. 

 

Now I'm looking into what to do next. However, I don't feel she's ready for pre-algebra. 

 

I think she needs more help and explicit instruction in multiplying and dividing fractions, percents, decimals, ratios, and there are probably other things that I can't think of at the moment. 

 

She's using Mastering Essential Math Skills right now alongside RS G and that's what has made me realize that she is not very comfortable with many of these concepts toward the end of the book. 

 

I looked at Saxon 8/7 and glanced through the table of contents. It looked like it covered much of what she needs help with. But it's so different from RS that I wasn't sure it would really resonate with her. 

 

I looked at the Keys To series and they look great but she needs more topics than just fractions and decimals. There are other concepts that she struggles with as well. 

 

So here's my question:

 

Use Saxon 8/7

 

OR

 

Use something else to get her solid with fractions and decimals before jumping into pre-algebra - if so, what do you recommend for a child who is not very mathy??

 

OR

 

Go into a pre-algebra program and hope that she'll survive. Are some of those topics taught in some of the pre-algebra programs? (I clearly need to read through the table of contents of those). 

 

She'll be in 6th grade and I don't know that she's ready for algebra and I don't want to rush her and make her frustrated. 

 

If you're thinking about using Saxon, it's important to give your dc the placement test first, rather than deciding which text you think she should do.

 

FTR, Math 87 *is* "pre-algebra." Students who finish it with at least an 80% average go right into Algebra 1.

[lexi]

If you're thinking about using Saxon, it's important to give your dc the placement test first, rather than deciding which text you think she should do.

 

FTR, Math 87 *is* "pre-algebra." Students who finish it with at least an 80% average go right into Algebra 1.

 

I just printed off the placement test! Thanks!

Schedule

[Guest]

You might try the placement test for CLE. The 6 or 700 series (or even 800) might be a good fit for her. 

[MerryAtHope]

I was in a similar position when my oldest was ready to move on. I found that both Math-U-See and Teaching Textbooks included a lot of review of things like fractions and decimals in their Pre-algebra programs. You could look at their TOC and scope/sequences to see if either might meet your student's needs. 

[Hunter]

Saxon 87 was written by Hake to finish his middle school curriculum. Saxon had already written Algebra 1/2 and 87 was an unneeded book.

 

The confusion over 87 and Algebra 1/2 is because people don't want to say certain things to the public.

 

Saxon and Hake had some very different ideas about teaching math. 87 is Hake's ideas. Algebra 1/2 was Saxon's. Saxon was a remedial community college teacher. With each new edition, Hake increasingly caters to schools with cherry-picked kids that have been red-shirted.

 

I recommmend Algebra 1/2 over 87 if only one book is going to be completed. Yes, I know Hake recommends 87. Of course he does. But, I think Saxon was a better and more realistic teacher than Hake. Just my opinion.

[Ellie]

Saxon 87 was written by Hake to finish his middle school curriculum. Saxon had already written Algebra 1/2 and 87 was an unneeded book.

 

The confusion over 87 and Algebra 1/2 is because people don't want to say certain things to the public.

 

Saxon and Hake had some very different ideas about teaching math. 87 is Hake's ideas. Algebra 1/2 was Saxon's. Saxon was a remedial community college teacher. With each new edition, Hake increasingly caters to schools with cherry-picked kids that have been red-shirted.

 

I recommmend Algebra 1/2 over 87 if only one book is going to be completed. Yes, I know Hake recommends 87. Of course he does. But, I think Saxon was a better and more realistic teacher than Hake. Just my opinion.

 

As much as I hate to disagree with you, and taking the risk that you actually know more than I do, it is not that Saxon or Hake prefers one over the other. It has everything to do with the placement test. We always should place children according to the placement test, anyway, yes? Well...

 

*I* did not feel that Math 87 was unneeded. I prefer it over Alg. 1/2. But I would still always use the placement test (for students new to Saxon; for students doing Math 76, the choice between Math 87 and Alg. 1/2 depends on how well they did in Math 76).

[BusyMom5]

I have both, and have taught both- my opinion is that Algebra 1/2 was much clearer, more algebra-based, while 8/7 still has a lot of arithmetic in it.  This DD needs the arithmetic review still, so we are doing 8/7 (2nd edition b/c it has fewer topics per lesson and that works for us, the HS edition that I used before was too wordy and cluttered IMO).  After we finish, I will decide if she needs another year of Algebra 1/2, or if we go straight to ALgebra 1.  I will not make that call until the end of 8/7, but I like having the option as I mentioned before.  As for the placement, right now we are finishing 7/6, and she's done very well on the first 3/4 of the book- we are on the last 30 lessons, which I know are repeated in the 8/7 book, and she's getting more lost by the day- thus the need for 8/7 over PreAl. 

[ScoutTN]

All the things you mentioned are thoroughly covered in Math Mammoth 6. (MM7 is pre-algebra.)

It is inexpensive, conceptual and flexible. Mastery, not spiral. Placement test and TOC online. Maria Miller, the author, is happy to answer emails too. 

 

My Dd went through RS A-E and found the transition to MM to be smooth. Plenty of practice and easy to add more from the MM website if needed. Where she is strong on both concepts and procedure, I reduce the number of problems to do. Usually, my Dd gets the concepts and needs more practice to be fast and accurate with the computation. 

 

A strongly procedural text would be boring for her I think. RS conditioned her to enjoy thinking about math.  :D  And this is a humanities kid! 

 

[Hunter]

Originally, 76 was for average 7th grade and honors 6th grade. Algebra 1/2 was average 8th grade and honors 7th. Algebra was average 9th grade and honors 8th. Right?

 

Algebra 1/2 was written before 76? It was clearly the pre-algebra book? Then 76, then 65, then 54? And then 87?

 

There is no place for an additional book between 76 and 1/2 unless we ADD a book NOT in the typical scope and sequence.

 

I know that HAKE, says to do 87 and then only do 1/2 if you need it, but I don't think Saxon could have possibly wanted that. He wrote 1/2 to be taken before Algebra 1, and I truly think he meant it. I think the placement test is a smoke screen. Sure some kids plateau and can use an extra year of review. But the public school scope and sequence was 76 and 1/2 for 7th and 8th grade, and a year accelerated for honors, until Hake wrote 87.

 

And then Hake encouraged bumping everything up a year or two And that resulted in a lot of rushed kids not being developmentally ready for Algebra in 7th grade and 8th grade. So kids test into needing two overlapping pre-algebra books.

 

But if we knock off all the foolishness, most average kids will smoothly cover older editions of 54-76 for grades 5-7 and be perfectly ready for pre-algebra in 8th. Bumping them up is the problem, not Algebra 1/2. Yeh, I'm not a Hake fan. Sorry. He is a good salesman, though. I'll give him that. And his math teaching philosophy is more popular with some modern parents and schools, than Saxon's oldschool back to basics philosophy that catered to the hump of the bell curve.

[Ellie]

Originally, 76 was for average 7th grade and honors 6th grade. Algebra 1/2 was average 8th grade and honors 7th. Algebra was average 9th grade and honors 8th. Right?

 

Algebra 1/2 was written before 76? It was clearly the pre-algebra book? Then 76, then 65, then 54? And then 87?

 

There is no place for an additional book between 76 and 1/2 unless we ADD a book NOT in the typical scope and sequence.

 

I know that HAKE, says to do 87 and then only do 1/2 if you need it, but I don't think Saxon could have possibly wanted that. He wrote 1/2 to be taken before Algebra 1, and I truly think he meant it. I think the placement test is a smoke screen. Sure some kids plateau and can use an extra year of review. But the public school scope and sequence was 76 and 1/2 for 7th and 8th grade, and a year accelerated for honors, until Hake wrote 87.

 

And then Hake encouraged bumping everything up a year or two And that resulted in a lot of rushed kids not being developmentally ready for Algebra in 7th grade and 8th grade. So kids test into needing two overlapping pre-algebra books.

 

But if we knock off all the foolishness, most average kids will smoothly cover older editions of 54-76 for grades 5-7 and be perfectly ready for pre-algebra in 8th. Bumping them up is the problem, not Algebra 1/2. Yeh, I'm not a Hake fan. Sorry. He is a good salesman, though. I'll give him that. And his math teaching philosophy is more popular with some modern parents and schools, than Saxon's oldschool back to basics philosophy that catered to the hump of the bell curve.

 

John Saxon didn't want to put grade levels on the texts at all. He only made those recommendations at the insistence of the publisher.

 

I've never heard of there being an "honors 6th grade" or "honors 7th grade." o_0

 

I haven't researched this stuff nearly as much as you have :-) But for as long as I can remember, the rule of thumb on Math 87 and Alg. 1/2 was dependent on how well a student did on Math 76. Originally, if a student completed 76 with at least an 80% average, he did Alg. 1/2, then Alg. 1. If he had less than 80%, he did Math 87, then Alg. 1. At some point those two were swapped, so if a student completed 76 with 80%, he did Math 87, then Alg. 1; less than 80%, Alg. 1/2, then Algebra 1. AFAIK, there was never any intention for a student to do both 87 and 1/2.

 

Students who were already in Saxon do not take the placement test; the Math 87/Alg. 1/2 decision is based on Math 76, as I said. We only do the placement test for children who are not doing Saxon, so we know where to start them.

 

I spoke with Steve Hake once upon a time, long ago. The first copy I had of 76 was photocopies of hand-written pages; I think I still have a copy of the hardcover text, when it was Hake-Saxon, not just Saxon. I haven't followed the saga of Saxon vs Hake.

[Hunter]

I don't remember the term used, but I used honors as the public school term used at some of my schools, and in many homeschool curriculum and correspondence schools, for doing Algebra 1 in 8th grade.

 

76 was a 7th grade book, unless the student was on track to take Algebra in 8th grade instead of 9th. Then it was scheduled for 6th.

 

At some point, Hake changed things, and I don't think for the better for the hump of kids. And we have such a smokescreen covering what is best for the hump.

[Peaceseeker]

Derek Owens pre Algebra does a good bit of review. Chalk dust has a basic math that gets you ready for Pre Algebra. I agree with the above poster that MM 6 would work as well. You can also use MM topically and work on whatever topics you need instead of working by grade.

 

The keys to series is very solid review for fractions, decimals, and percents. Often these are the topics that need the most review before heading into Pre-Algebra.

[lexi]

Thanks for all the thoughts! That's a lot to read through. She finishing the placement test for Saxon today so I'll see what that tells me. I had no idea there was a different author for 7/6 and 8/7.

I'm going to have to really think about this.

I was planning to eventually use Jacobs for algebra and geometry but I really feel my dd needs another year of arithmetic before we dive in. I want her to have a great foundation.

This is a tough decision!!

[Ellie]

Thanks for all the thoughts! That's a lot to read through. She finishing the placement test for Saxon today so I'll see what that tells me. I had no idea there was a different author for 7/6 and 8/7.

I'm going to have to really think about this.

I was planning to eventually use Jacobs for algebra and geometry but I really feel my dd needs another year of arithmetic before we dive in. I want her to have a great foundation.

This is a tough decision!!

 

When the books were published originally, they were Hake-Saxon, not just Saxon.

 

I wouldn't let any discussion about authors keep you from using whichever text your daughter tests into. Your dd might test into Alg. 1/2, she might test into 87. And she might test into 76. Do the one she tests into and call it a day. :-)

[lexi]

Ok. She tested into 7/6 because she mad quite a few silly mistakes. I'm thinking I'd rather have her do that level to build her confidence and help her focus.

So, they now have these new homeschool editions....what's the difference between those and the old textbooks?

[Ellie]

Ok. She tested into 7/6 because she mad quite a few silly mistakes. I'm thinking I'd rather have her do that level to build her confidence and help her focus.

So, they now have these new homeschool editions....what's the difference between those and the old textbooks?

 

Well, there you go. :-)

 

Remember the cardinal rule of Saxon (Math 54 and above): students must do *all* of the problems in every problem set. Unlike other texts, every problem in every problem set is important and has a purpose; they are not busywork.

 

Also, if she completes Math 76 with at least an 80% average, she will go on to Math 87, then Alg. 1. If she struggles through Math 76, she'll do Alg. 1/2, then Algebra 1.

Edited March 19, 2017 by Ellie

[Hunter]

Lexi, it is sometimes hard to know how to handle silly mistakes. My younger was sloppy and distracted and maybe a bit lazy. To hold him back for silly mistakes would have been a mistake. He got the same percentage wrong on easy and hard stuff.

 

Saxon does need to be done quickly, though. The student is meant to be working on stuff easy enough to be quickly drilling. I'd be paying attention to speed and frustration level even more than accuracy for some kids.

 

I just dont like the direction Hake is headed. It isn't a good fit for ME. So I prefer the oldest 54-76 I can find, and then switch to the books Saxon wrote. Or skip the Hake books all together.

 

If *I* am going to attempt to drag a kid through the entire high school math scope and sequence, I have to use Saxon. It is the only series I was successful with. If I read the book with my kid and did every problem with him, then we made it through. The DVDs were a distraction and learned to just READ the book.

 

I am not planning to ever teach past Saxon Algebra 2 again. The brain damage from the seizures is SOOOOO much better, but I still have this...thing...that is hard to explain. And I'm getting older and tired. Saxon 1 and 2 were designed for community college remediation to prepare for College Algenra 101. That is a high enough goal for me at this point in my life.

 

Every curriculum has its pros and cons, but I do like Saxon Algebra and the bits and bobs of integrated other strands that are enough to prepare for community college math.

 

Good luck!