Open/Closed Syllables

[domestic_engineer]

In AAS, we learned that vowels in closed syllables say their short sound and vowels in open syllables say their long sound.   I thought that was pretty straightforward, but now we are going through some multisyllabic words with Reading Pathways, and there are lots of time where the vowels don't follow the rule we learned in AAS.  One example from today is delicatessen.  del - i - ca - tes- sen.  The 2nd syllable is pronounced with a short i, but it's an open syllable.  Yesterday we ran into this with comPLIcated and intelLIgent.  (The captialized syllable is the alleged rule-breaker.)

 

What's the reason the vowels aren't following the rules?  (I assume it's from adding suffixes and whatnots).

How do I teach these?  DC is getting really frustrated trying to follow the rule, and then the rule not applying.

[forty-two]

I think it's that the rules are different in longer, Latin-derived words.  (Also, that the rules are more like guidelines ;) - "rules of thumb" than "laws of language".  Some people might get this intuitively, but it took me a long time to realize that phonics rules are *models* of language, not the *rules* of language.  AKA the language came first and the rules - the model - came second, as a way to try to understand and explain and make explicit what reality was doing.  And with English borrowing from so many other languages, it's can be easier and more accurate to think of a model for the Germanic layer and another model for the Latin layer and another for the Greek layer and such.) 

 

I've found that a good rule of thumb for multi-syllable Latin-derived words is that all the vowels in non-accented syllables are usually short (and many get schwa'd anyway), so try first with a short sound, and switch to a long sound on the second try if short doesn't make a word.

 

(One thing I appreciate about Rewards is how it emphasizes trying the usual sound first (what the rules suggest) and if that doesn't make a word, to try the next most common alternate sound.  Success isn't predicting the sound correctly from the rules on the first try, but is being flexible and aware, so if the most common sound doesn't work, you notice right away and go straight to trying the next most common sound.  The rules are about making your first try an informed guess instead of a random stab in the dark, not about eliminating the need for guessing between multiple correct possibilities altogether.)

[domestic_engineer]

I think it's that the rules are different in longer, Latin-derived words.  (Also, that the rules are more like guidelines ;) - "rules of thumb" than "laws of language".  Some people might get this intuitively, but it took me a long time to realize that phonics rules are *models* of language, not the *rules* of language.  AKA the language came first and the rules - the model - came second, as a way to try to understand and explain and make explicit what reality was doing.  And with English borrowing from so many other languages, it's can be easier and more accurate to think of a model for the Germanic layer and another model for the Latin layer and another for the Greek layer and such.) 

 

I've found that a good rule of thumb for multi-syllable Latin-derived words is that all the vowels in non-accented syllables are usually short (and many get schwa'd anyway), so try first with a short sound, and switch to a long sound on the second try if short doesn't make a word.

 

(One thing I appreciate about Rewards is how it emphasizes trying the usual sound first (what the rules suggest) and if that doesn't make a word, to try the next most common alternate sound.  Success isn't predicting the sound correctly from the rules on the first try, but is being flexible and aware, so if the most common sound doesn't work, you notice right away and go straight to trying the next most common sound.  The rules are about making your first try an informed guess instead of a random stab in the dark, not about eliminating the need for guessing between multiple correct possibilities altogether.)

I appreciate your rule of thumb of trying a short vowel first.  I had never noticed that!  I agree that the "rules" are more guidelines to the language ... but that's difficult to convey to a young reader who sees the world in black and white.

 

I agree with your parenthetical comment about knowing what to try first.  But with these longer words, DC doesn't even know what the word is or its meaning. So DC doesn't know if the guess makes a word or not.  I don't know how to address this other than to emphasize that my correction is just part of the learning process ... which doesn't always get taken well. Do you have any ideas?

 

(BTW - I loved your use of "Schwa'd".  I knew exactly what you meant, but it just sounds so funny!  ... and what I needed after a rough reading lesson!  :D)

[forty-two]

I appreciate your rule of thumb of trying a short vowel first.  I had never noticed that!  I agree that the "rules" are more guidelines to the language ... but that's difficult to convey to a young reader who sees the world in black and white.

It took hearing years of repetition of some things from my parents before my young black-and-white-thinking-self finally got it - but I did get it in the end ;).  So my advice is just to keep repeating it whenever it comes up until it sinks in.

 

I agree with your parenthetical comment about knowing what to try first.  But with these longer words, DC doesn't even know what the word is or its meaning. So DC doesn't know if the guess makes a word or not.  I don't know how to address this other than to emphasize that my correction is just part of the learning process ... which doesn't always get taken well. Do you have any ideas?

 I have felt the exact same frustration in trying to learn a foreign language on my own - all the pronunciation rules assume you know what the spoken word sounds like - but I *don't* - and I have no teacher to tell me.  So my suggestion is to treat it as a learning opportunity - he makes his best guess, it's wrong, so you could tell him what the word *does* sound like, and help him figure out which letters he needs to change his pronunciation on to match the spoken word.

 

(BTW - I loved your use of "Schwa'd".  I knew exactly what you meant, but it just sounds so funny!  ... and what I needed after a rough reading lesson!   :D)

:lol:  It's a made-up word, but it's the shortest way to convey the idea :tongue_smilie:.

 

[ScoutTN]

The AAS cards on open/closed syllables say "usually". It's not a hard and fast rule without exceptions. 

[MerryAtHope]

In AAS, we learned that vowels in closed syllables say their short sound and vowels in open syllables say their long sound.   I thought that was pretty straightforward, but now we are going through some multisyllabic words with Reading Pathways, and there are lots of time where the vowels don't follow the rule we learned in AAS.  One example from today is delicatessen.  del - i - ca - tes- sen.  The 2nd syllable is pronounced with a short i, but it's an open syllable.  Yesterday we ran into this with comPLIcated and intelLIgent.  (The captialized syllable is the alleged rule-breaker.)

 

What's the reason the vowels aren't following the rules?  (I assume it's from adding suffixes and whatnots).

How do I teach these?  DC is getting really frustrated trying to follow the rule, and then the rule not applying.

 

In the AAR program, they teach students to try the additional vowel sounds if the first sound doesn't help them recognize the word. Vowels in unaccented syllables often get muffled. Sometimes to a short U sound, but sometimes to another short vowel sound. Here's an article on schwa sounds.

[ElizabethB]

I have rules arranged on my cards with normal, then latin exceptions below. Latin also has an exception for division between vowels. Longer words are more likely to be from Latin than shorter words, and also more likely to have schwaing in unaccented syllables.

x

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/Resources/40LChartsCombined.pdf

Edited September 22, 2016 by ElizabethB

[ElizabethB]

I appreciate your rule of thumb of trying a short vowel first. I had never noticed that! I agree that the "rules" are more guidelines to the language ... but that's difficult to convey to a young reader who sees the world in black and white.

 

I agree with your parenthetical comment about knowing what to try first. But with these longer words, DC doesn't even know what the word is or its meaning. So DC doesn't know if the guess makes a word or not. I don't know how to address this other than to emphasize that my correction is just part of the learning process ... which doesn't always get taken well. Do you have any ideas?

 

(BTW - I loved your use of "Schwa'd". I knew exactly what you meant, but it just sounds so funny! ... and what I needed after a rough reading lesson! :D)

If you work through the entire Webster, the patterns become clear! Here is how to add in a bit of Webster:

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/WellTaughtPhonicsStudent.html

 

ETA: Also, in Webster, the words are arranged by schwa accent pattern, and divided so you can tell if the vowel is long or short, so most of the words are able to be figured out without help or correction.

Edited September 22, 2016 by ElizabethB

[RootAnn]

I noticed that all your examples are of an 'i' at the end of a syllable. Our Spalding-spin-off spelling program teaches "I (and y) usually say /i/ (short sound) at the end of a syllable, but may say /I/ (long sound).

 

Neither my dd nor I could figure out where to break up an unknown word into syllables when there wasn't a really clear spot (say, double letters). If we already know the word, great. But we are infamous for mispronouncing words. (ElizabethB's 40L quick reading level chart is a clear example as there is one word on there that I still don't know how it should be pronounced.  :blush: )

[aaplank]

I believe it's because I unaccented vowels make the schwa sound. In del i ca tes sen that open "a" is unaccented.

[domestic_engineer]

I noticed that all your examples are of an 'i' at the end of a syllable. Our Spalding-spin-off spelling program teaches "I (and y) usually say /i/ (short sound) at the end of a syllable, but may say /I/ (long sound).

 

Neither my dd nor I could figure out where to break up an unknown word into syllables when there wasn't a really clear spot (say, double letters). If we already know the word, great. But we are infamous for mispronouncing words. (ElizabethB's 40L quick reading level chart is a clear example as there is one word on there that I still don't know how it should be pronounced.  :blush: )

That's it!!!  I went back through our book to see what words we've been troubled with, and each one has an 'i' at the end of a syllable.  I think this will bring great relief to DC.  Thank you!!!

[domestic_engineer]

I have rules arranged on my cards with normal, then latin exceptions below. Latin also has an exception for division between vowels. Longer words are more likely to be from Latin than shorter words, and also more likely to have schwaing in unaccented syllables.

x

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/Resources/40LChartsCombined.pdf

 Thanks!!!  This is helpful too.  I always wondered about the division between vowels that you identified as the Latin exception!