are organic home-grown apples a myth?

[Nicole M]

...like unicorns perhaps? I have two trees, both varieties are supposed to be great in this area. The Spartan is happy and productive (there's a sentence I never thought I'd write) and the Liberty is very sad indeed. Mushy, buggy fruit, almost nothing edible on that tree. They get the same sun, same everything. For the past two years I've had my pruning guy come shape up the trees and I've set out traps and I pick up all the nasty fruit from the ground and even used little apple prophylactics this year.

 

How do organic farmers get such nice big happy apples? What are they doing? If I need to spray something, I'm willing to try. What, though? And why is this such a big secret? Do I have some kind of google search disorder? I can't find anything!

 

Anyone?

 

(And if you're curious about apple prophylactics, here you go: http://www.raintreenursery.com/catalog/productdetails.cfm?productid=T165)

[Medieval Mom]

I can't help, except by saying that my parents have apples all over their property. They don't spray, prune, or do anything to them besides gather them to eat and to press cider in the fall. Some years they are picture perfect. Other years they are spotted or scabby. Unfortunately, I don't know the varieties they've planted. But I do know that it MUST be possible! Hang in there! Someone with experience and wisdom will know what to do :) By the way, in scabby years, we just plan to make lots and lots of cider! Pie, applesauce, and cider taste excellent regardless of the cosmetics of the fruit!

[Nicole M]

Thanks for weighing in, Medieval Mom. I'm glad your parents are so successful with their apples.

 

This is year 12 -- we planted the trees when my youngest was a baby. I remember having him in the snugli, under my coat, while my husband and oldest, then just 5, dug the holes and planted them. After they started bearing fruit, the first few years they were always perfect. Then the trouble started, and yes, for the last few years we've had nothing but applesauce and crisps. But this year, that one tree -- none of the fruit is useful for even that. I've never seen the fruit swell up into mush before, right on the branch. We didn't do enough thinning, but it's hard for me to believe that's the sole cause of the problem.

 

I hope some apple people are here on the board today!

 

Those Liberty apples, by the way, are magic when they are perfect. The skin is bright red, and the flesh very white. They are marvelous. I miss them!

[MommyX8]

Apples are HUGE in this part. I spoke to a local farmer and he said that he highly doubts that organic is as organic as they would like people to believe. It is very difficult to get picture perfect results without some sort of spraying. Now it doesn't have to be the most toxic thing on the planet, but they just won't grow perfectly in today's condition.

[Nicole M]

Apples are HUGE in this part. I spoke to a local farmer and he said that he highly doubts that organic is as organic as they would like people to believe. It is very difficult to get picture perfect results without some sort of spraying. Now it doesn't have to be the most toxic thing on the planet, but they just won't grow perfectly in today's condition.

 

That's exactly what I thought must be true. But what are they spraying? I have some vague idea that "copper" was involved (and not a petrochemical so probably considered "organic") but wouldn't that be for black spot? I don't know. Maybe I need to nag my library system for better books on this matter, because I've come up empty there, too.

[Ria]

That's exactly what I thought must be true. But what are they spraying? I have some vague idea that "copper" was involved (and not a petrochemical so probably considered "organic") but wouldn't that be for black spot? I don't know. Maybe I need to nag my library system for better books on this matter, because I've come up empty there, too.

 

There are oils that you can spray on that, I believe, would still classify as organic. Also, some of the dusts might be considered organic because they are made from natural ingredients. In the end, though, the apples are almost always treated with something.

 

Ria

[Saille]

The Apple Grower was recommended to me as a guide for growing organic apples.

 

I suggest looking up IPM, or Integrated Pest Management. Some growers spray kaolin clay, which is organic but works as an insect control. I know copper and sulfur are used as fungicides. Agway usually has some organic fungicidal sprays. There are sticky red lures that can also help with bug problems. Cultivating habitats for insect eating birds is a helpful thing to do as well.

[Nicole M]

The Apple Grower was recommended to me as a guide for growing organic apples.

 

I suggest looking up IPM, or Integrated Pest Management. Some growers spray kaolin clay, which is organic but works as an insect control. I know copper and sulfur are used as fungicides. Agway usually has some organic fungicidal sprays. There are sticky red lures that can also help with bug problems. Cultivating habitats for insect eating birds is a helpful thing to do as well.

 

Thanks, Saille. I'll see if I can get my hands on that book.

 

I'm familiar with IPM, but could not find information about sprays for apples, so thanks. Long ago I'd heard about a local apple grower who uses kaolin clay spray, but I'd forgotten about that. We already did lures, tested the soil, have an incredible bird habitat, so, really, truly, I've tried everything.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

We have an organic apple grower not far from here.

They grow many types of apples, but not Liberty (I've never even heard of it, so it must not be local).

 

What they do spray is clay. When the apples start to show red, they cover the tiny apples with clay to literally camouflage them away from insects.

Wash away the clay, and voilà, gorgeous apples!

 

And as Saille said, they also attract birds but I don't remember how. And they have a certain type of insect that feeds on the apple-eating ones.

[Doran]

The Apple Grower was on my list of rec's, too. And, this site (I haven't used it) looked promising.

 

I think what many people don't understand is that "organic" is not synonymous with not sprayed, and this is especially true for tree fruits. Combine that with the climate in your location -- humidity is a killer! -- and you'll have a better understanding of why some regions are better than others for growing apples, peaches, pears, plums in a low/no-spray fashion.

 

Clay would be the trail I'd follow. Be careful about dormant oils because many are petroleum based. Honestly, though, many "commercial organic" methods are not especially convenient for the home grower.

[mo2]

I can't help you any, but we had darn near perfect apples this year, and we did absolutely nothing to them. No spraying, no pruning, nothing. We just left them alone and they are awesome.

[Guest Virginia Dawn]

How do you spray clay on apples? Would it work on other fruit like peaches or cherries?

[Audrey]

...like unicorns perhaps? I have two trees, both varieties are supposed to be great in this area. The Spartan is happy and productive (there's a sentence I never thought I'd write) and the Liberty is very sad indeed. Mushy, buggy fruit, almost nothing edible on that tree. They get the same sun, same everything. For the past two years I've had my pruning guy come shape up the trees and I've set out traps and I pick up all the nasty fruit from the ground and even used little apple prophylactics this year.

 

How do organic farmers get such nice big happy apples? What are they doing? If I need to spray something, I'm willing to try. What, though? And why is this such a big secret? Do I have some kind of google search disorder? I can't find anything!

 

Anyone?

 

(And if you're curious about apple prophylactics, here you go: http://www.raintreenursery.com/catalog/productdetails.cfm?productid=T165)

 

 

I don't do anything to my apple trees, and they just keep popping out more apples than I can handle. My chickens poop on them a lot. Maybe that's my secret? :D

[Doran]

How do you spray clay on apples? Would it work on other fruit like peaches or cherries?

 

 

 

Read here. Note, also, that these pages mention use in the EASTERN U.S. Not that it would be useless elsewhere, but apples *are* supposed to be easier to grow in WA state. :confused:

Edited October 16, 2008 by Doran

[gardening momma]

We have an apple tree that we have done nothing with since we moved here 3 years ago. Actually I didn't know it was an apple tree until last year when dh said one of neighbors told him. And that could have been right after we moved in, since dh often forgets to tell me stuff like that. The neighbor said the previous owner of our house used to prune the tree himself. It's at a front corner of our house, by one of the bedrooms.

 

We never saw any apples on it until this year. I'm wondering if it's because last year I pruned the tree back as high as I could reach (and climbed up some to prune also). This was just because the tree was getting so big. I doubt I was able to reach more than a third of the tree. This year we have had lots of apples (only in the lower portion where I pruned last year), but they were small, and I thought they might be crab apples. We didn't bother trying to eat any, since they were small, lumpy, blemished and presumed to be sour. Today I was walking around the tree and looked up and there was a pretty good looking apple that didn't look blemished or lumpy so I picked it. I brought it in, cleaned it up and sliced it. It tastes similar to a red delicious, but it's definitely smaller than that, not dark red like a delicious, and rounder. I don't know apple varieties very well, except for red delicious and granny smith. It's definitely not a crab apple. Any idea what it might be?

 

(Oh, I posted here because it's organic by default, since I've done nothing with the tree all year!)

[Nicole M]

It tastes similar to a red delicious, but it's definitely smaller than that, not dark red like a delicious, and rounder. I don't know apple varieties very well, except for red delicious and granny smith. It's definitely not a crab apple. Any idea what it might be?

 

(Oh, I posted here because it's organic by default, since I've done nothing with the tree all year!)

 

That sounds like it could be a Liberty. But then, it could be any number of apples.... Do you have a local extension? Western Washington U has one, and I've brought branches over there when my elms were mysteriously dying. (They were befuddled, "But we don't have Dutch Elm disease here!" So they tested and voila! Dutch elm disease! So we're on record as being the first case in Western Washington. Nice.) Anyway, if you bring in some fruit, they may be able to tell you what it is.

[Nicole M]

Read here. Note, also, that these pages mention use in the EASTERN U.S. Not that it would be useless elsewhere, but apples *are* supposed to be easier to grow in WA state. :confused:

 

No kidding, about supposed to be easy. Very sad, confused face here, too.

 

Thanks for the links, Doran. I'll look into this stuff for next year.

 

Maybe we're just having a spell of bad luck. After all, we haven't done our annual 12th night ritual in the last two years, dancing around the trees with our home-made lanterns, singing the Apple Tree Wassail and hanging tufts of wool on the branches for the birdies to build their nests. To heck with spray and oil and clay! We probably just need to sing a little!