Anyone sick of Barton?

[MyLittleBears]

Ds is halfway through level 5. He loathes it, I think, because it is difficult for him. I'm starting to loathe it because he does. I'm starting to dread it, honestly. His reading has finally taken off, but his spelling is atrocious! I'm looking down the road and realize there are 10 levels. We are not even halfway through yet!  Ds will be in 7th grade and I'm starting to wondering if we'll ever be done with this. Ugh.... It makes we want to switch to something more concise.

 

ok, rant over!

[OneStepAtATime]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

Does he have comorbid issues making the lessons more challenging?  Have you been reviewing periodically?  How long are the lessons?  

 

I found that DD HAS to have shorter lessons.  For a while we were only doing 20 minutes a day.  I had a chart out of the letter designations of each section and we would break at very specific areas.  It helped.  She got into a rhythm.  It also meant we were reviewing more, which also helped, since we would review what we did the day before.  Lessons sometimes take 2-3 days now but for a while they were stretching out to 2-3 weeks but otherwise she didn't really retain it and she HATED it.  She would just shut down.

 

Are you incorporating any games?  Some days neither of us is up to a full lesson but doing the Spelling Success games has helped reinforce while also giving us both a bit of a breather.  

 

I also think that boys in 6th/7th grade just often have a harder time dealing with the nitty gritty boring hard stuff.  DS is certainly struggling with that.  

 

Anyway, good luck and best wishes. 

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[displace]

No advice but (hugs). We gave up on Barton during the second level :(. Not because it's not a good program, but I couldn't make it work for me/us. I bet it would be good for us now that I had OG training! Haha :)

[MyLittleBears]

Thanks for your replies. Yes, I highly suspect his had CAPD.(testing for that will be next after hearing eval next week) He is also being treated with OT for SPD/dysgraphia.  He has a slighty low working memory and processing speed, which I understand can happen with dyslexia. We have been doing 30min lessons with some review but maybe he needs more. It just overwhelming to think there are 5 more levels when we are already going at a snail's pace. Ugh.

[OneStepAtATime]

What do you think the main issue is:

 

1.  Additional learning challenges?

2.  Critical pieces are not being retained, making it harder to move forward?

3.  Age/attitude?

4.  Bad fit for you as the teacher or him as the student, just in general?

5.  Something else?

 

Has level 5 worked better than Level 4 at all?  Has Barton improved his reading significantly?  When you say his spelling is atrocious, is that during Barton lessons, too, or regarding spelling outside of the program?

[imagine.more]

Me! 

 

:) I mean, I love Barton but then I hate it too. It's extremely boring and very difficult to do with my DD who has additional disabilities. It works for her, even if she doesn't make the fast progress you see in neurotypical kids who just have dyslexia. But seriously, she was totally illiterate 2 years ago and now she reads, like really reads. We're also halfway through Level 5 so I think there must be something about this level, and maybe just about being halfway through the program. It feels like we've been doing this forever but still have forever to go. Also, we're still needing to use simple readers, I can't really just let her loose with chapter books indiscriminately because then she slips back into bad habits of guessing because too few of the words are decodable for her. 

 

Anyway, I can relate. I really can. I say maybe try a 6 weeks on-1 week off approach, kind of like the Sabbath schooling a bunch of homeschoolers have been trying. That way you can build in regular breaks while not having the backsliding that happens with longer OG breaks. 

 

I've also found it helpful to add in an Interactive Notebooking element to our Barton tutoring. This gives me, and my students, a way to really visualize how far they've come, to reference old rules, and a convenient way to keep track of their words, phrases, and sentences that they write within the lesson. We also like to do the Spelling Success games, they're really excellent and pretty affordable. My non-dyslexic kids enjoy playing them too and they're random enough that an older or non-dyslexic person can play with your dyslexic student and he's not at a huge disadvantage. 

 

Also, sometimes it helps when I get discouraged to map out our long-term plan again. It helps me to see that, while DD going into 8th grade "feels" very late and like we're running out of time we truly have 5 years and she can finish Barton in 2 years even with her slow pace, then we can move on to the next stuff and she's on point to meet my goals for her. 

[frogger]

Me! Me! Me! I want to do fun stuff. You know that cool stuff that you see children in homeschooling magazines doing; nature journaling, reading fabulous stories, and history biographies and cool science experiments. Not speech, not Barton, not how to look people in the eye and smile and say hello and that you don't need a very specific and factual list to answer your friend's, "What have you been up to?".

 

That being said I don't want to go back to other programs. This one gets old but it does seem to be working. I like the idea of the week off. I have two in Barton so I get to hit it twice a day, (can you hear the squeals of excitement, I mean groans) and I thought we would take time off when we finished a level but they will never finish at the same time which is good and bad. I could be more focused on one or the other but still won't have any energy for fun stuff. Perhaps I should just say 6 weeks and where ever we are is where we will be after a week break and do science or something. 

 

I don't know if this is the case for you but everything has what I call the intermediate hump. Learning a foreign language, and instrument, or writing. There are these humps where it feels you aren't progressing and it is just going to go on forever. Sometimes though they are right before a big takeoff. Sometimes you just keep slogging to the end. I make no promises. But when the newness wears off and it is all just hard work, well a lot of things are like that. 

[MyLittleBears]

What do you think the main issue is:

 

1.  Additional learning challenges?

2.  Critical pieces are not being retained, making it harder to move forward?

3.  Age/attitude?

4.  Bad fit for you as the teacher or him as the student, just in general?

5.  Something else?

 

Has level 5 worked better than Level 4 at all?  Has Barton improved his reading significantly?  When you say his spelling is atrocious, is that during Barton lessons, too, or regarding spelling outside of the program?

 

 

Mostly it's his age. He is going into 7th grade and I realize his skill level is way lower than his little brother. His attitude is not bad, per se, but he does give me a silent groan. I feel like I'm torturing both him and myself. Looking at it from an almost halfway point, it seems like it will take forever, as if we're in a Barton purgatory.  :tongue_smilie:

[imagine.more]

Me! Me! Me! I want to do fun stuff. You know that cool stuff that you see children in homeschooling magazines doing; nature journaling, reading fabulous stories, and history biographies and cool science experiments. Not speech, not Barton, not how to look people in the eye and smile and say hello and that you don't need a very specific and factual list to answer your friend's, "What have you been up to?".

 

That being said I don't want to go back to other programs. This one gets old but it does seem to be working. I like the idea of the week off. I have two in Barton so I get to hit it twice a day, (can you hear the squeals of excitement, I mean groans) and I thought we would take time off when we finished a level but they will never finish at the same time which is good and bad. I could be more focused on one or the other but still won't have any energy for fun stuff. Perhaps I should just say 6 weeks and where ever we are is where we will be after a week break and do science or something. 

 

I don't know if this is the case for you but everything has what I call the intermediate hump. Learning a foreign language, and instrument, or writing. There are these humps where it feels you aren't progressing and it is just going to go on forever. Sometimes though they are right before a big takeoff. Sometimes you just keep slogging to the end. I make no promises. But when the newness wears off and it is all just hard work, well a lot of things are like that. 

 

Amen! I think that's part of why I felt the need to start the interactive notebooks. I was just so bored and lamenting the fact that our homeschool looks *nothing* like what I want because my DD's needs obviously take precedence and make certain things not a possibility. 

 

BTW if any other Level 5 Barton people are bored and wanting to incorporate some science/history stuff but using mostly Barton-approved words feel free to pm me and I can email you a few little packets I've been working on.

 

I just finished one on the planets. No earth-shattering academic info, but I needed to start really implementing vocabulary words for my daughter and improve her background knowledge without needing to read everything aloud to her. (she's deaf so audiobooks are out, she can only understand 85% of what I read aloud and maybe 60% of what she hears on her iPod) 

[OneStepAtATime]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

I totally get it.  Hugs everyone.  DD is technically a 10th grader now.  We are just starting Level 6.  When I look at how far we have to go I do get frustrated.  However, when I look at where she was when we started, it helps us both.  It also helps that she is a lot more enthusiastic at 15 than she was at 11-12... :)

 

Maybe think of it this way, OP.  Your son is going into 7th grade and already half-way through level 5.  Level 9 and 10 are really more High School level material.  Some people don't even do those levels.  Some people even on this board consider them more of a bonus than necessary to the core program.  If you don't think about those levels then you don't have that much further to go.  He should be finished with Level 6 by the start of summer, maybe?  Then he could probably complete Levels 7 and 8 during the summer and then the fall of his 8th grade year.  They are not as long as Level 4 or Level 6.  Level 9 and 10 are shorter (9 and 10 lessons respectively IIRC) so he could probably be finished by the beginning of 9th or middle of 9th but you could decide at the end of Level 8 if you wanted to push through or just stop altogether.

[MyLittleBears]

Me! 

 

:) I mean, I love Barton but then I hate it too. It's extremely boring and very difficult to do with my DD who has additional disabilities. It works for her, even if she doesn't make the fast progress you see in neurotypical kids who just have dyslexia. But seriously, she was totally illiterate 2 years ago and now she reads, like really reads. We're also halfway through Level 5 so I think there must be something about this level, and maybe just about being halfway through the program. It feels like we've been doing this forever but still have forever to go. Also, we're still needing to use simple readers, I can't really just let her loose with chapter books indiscriminately because then she slips back into bad habits of guessing because too few of the words are decodable for her. 

 

Anyway, I can relate. I really can. I say maybe try a 6 weeks on-1 week off approach, kind of like the Sabbath schooling a bunch of homeschoolers have been trying. That way you can build in regular breaks while not having the backsliding that happens with longer OG breaks. 

 

I've also found it helpful to add in an Interactive Notebooking element to our Barton tutoring. This gives me, and my students, a way to really visualize how far they've come, to reference old rules, and a convenient way to keep track of their words, phrases, and sentences that they write within the lesson. We also like to do the Spelling Success games, they're really excellent and pretty affordable. My non-dyslexic kids enjoy playing them too and they're random enough that an older or non-dyslexic person can play with your dyslexic student and he's not at a huge disadvantage. 

 

Also, sometimes it helps when I get discouraged to map out our long-term plan again. It helps me to see that, while DD going into 8th grade "feels" very late and like we're running out of time we truly have 5 years and she can finish Barton in 2 years even with her slow pace, then we can move on to the next stuff and she's on point to meet my goals for her. 

 

 

Just wondering what an interactive notebook is? Sound wonderful!

[MyLittleBears]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

I totally get it.  Hugs everyone.  DD is technically a 10th grader now.  We are just starting Level 6.  When I look at how far we have to go I do get frustrated.  However, when I look at where she was when we started, it helps us both.  It also helps that she is a lot more enthusiastic at 15 than she was at 11-12... :)

 

Maybe think of it this way, OP.  Your son is going into 7th grade and already half-way through level 5.  Level 9 and 10 are really more High School level material.  Some people don't even do those levels.  Some people even on this board consider them more of a bonus than necessary to the core program.  If you don't think about those levels then you don't have that much further to go.  He should be finished with Level 6 by the start of summer, maybe?  Then he could probably complete Levels 7 and 8 during the summer and then the fall of his 8th grade year.  They are not as long as Level 4 or Level 6.  Level 9 and 10 are shorter (9 and 10 lessons respectively IIRC) so he could probably be finished by the beginning of 9th or middle of 9th but you could decide at the end of Level 8 if you wanted to push through or just stop altogether.

 

 

OneStep this really helps! I like having the option of not doing the last 2 levels although we probably will. Knowing level 6 is the last really hard level helps too. Now it does not seem too overwhelming.

Edited August 3, 2016 by MyLittleBears

[OneStepAtATime]

OneStep this really helps! I like having the option of not doing the last 2 levels although we probably will. Knowing level 6 is the last really hard level helps too. Now it does not seem too overwhelming.

Yeah, I had to go back to the website and break it all down and think it through.  I was getting really stressed out during our third push through Level 4.  I realized that Level 6 is the only other level that is 14 lessons long.  All the others are shorter (sometimes only a little shorter but sometimes a lot shorter).  I plotted it all out in Homeschool Planet so I could see, based on our current pacing, where we might finish.  It helped.  Of course, it also helped that even though Level 4 took 2 years, essentially (I think...its a bit of a blur now), Level 5 only took a few months.  Yeah!  LOL

 

FWIW, what also helped me with motivation, besides the fact that it is actually working, is that a neighbor borrowed the system to try out with their son in 4th grade (not diagnosed with dyslexia but reluctant reader).  He blew through Level one and two in 3 days.  It was EASY for him.  It hit me just how much work it has been for DD to learn to read.  She is not neurotypical and never will be.  She has to have something to break it all down for her and help her build it all back up again.  Barton has done that for her where nothing else we ever tried has helped.  

 

Is it hard work?  Yes.  Because it is hard for her brain.  At least with Barton she finally made progress.  No matter what we use, it will be hard.  Does that mean that I think Barton is for everyone?  Nope.  Others have successfully used other programs.  If it is a really bad fit, I see nothing wrong with trying out something else.  I realized, though, that hopping around looking for something that would be easy is fruitless, at least for DD.  

 

I thought I would share a success we had today.  Today she was reading out loud in her Art History book for her on-line class.  This book is not a textbook and does not have any controlled text.  It is written to adults.  Without Barton it would have been impossible.  She was decoding sentences like "This is exemplified in the architecture of the period." and other words like "fashionable" and "colourful pageantry".  The British spelling wouldn't have mattered before Barton because she wouldn't have been able to even come close to decoding these words no matter which way they were spelled. Now she recognizes the word, even with the different spelling, and was able to read an entire chapter of small print, single spaced complex words.  

 

Did she have to slow down at times?  Yes.  Words like "tracery" and "tacit" tripped her up a bit because she was not familiar with them.  She had to fall back on her Barton lessons to decode.  Some words she had no meaning for and we had to look them up.  She is behind in content knowledge at this point.  And it wore her out completely to get through that chapter.  I offered to take over several times or let her read silently but she insisted on reading it out loud by herself instead of popcorn reading or me reading to her.  She did really, really well.  There may not have been the same fluency and inflection as when I read but she has come so far... :)

[MyLittleBears]

Aww... what an awesome success story! It is very rewarding when we see them blossom after so much struggle. It makes us realize how rewarding it is not only for us but for them as well. 

[OneStepAtATime]

Aww... what an awesome success story! It is very rewarding when we see them blossom after so much struggle. It makes us realize how rewarding it is not only for us but for them as well. 

I just wish it didn't have feel like we are running the Boston Marathon with both feet tied behind our backs...LOL

[BlsdMama]

SIgh.

 

I don't love it.

 

But I can't get past that it works.  So onward I plug.  DS11 is doing Level 3.  Again.

We have three doing Barton and one more beginning after LIPS.  I guess I"ll get to be an expert by the end of this. ;) 

[OneStepAtATime]

SIgh.

 

I don't love it.

 

But I can't get past that it works.  So onward I plug.  DS11 is doing Level 3.  Again.

We have three doing Barton and one more beginning after LIPS.  I guess I"ll get to be an expert by the end of this. ;)

Yep!  Hey, you could tutor someday and help other poor souls make it through... :)  And of course new LC boarders will welcome your advice.  

[Ottakee]

I have never even seen Barton so honestly it might be the way to go but have you ever checked out Apples and Pears spelling? Super easy to use and while not a barrel of monkeys some of their sentences, etc will appeal to a 7th grade boy humor. We also used their Dancing Bears reading program.

[MyLittleBears]

I have never even seen Barton so honestly it might be the way to go but have you ever checked out Apples and Pears spelling? Super easy to use and while not a barrel of monkeys some of their sentences, etc will appeal to a 7th grade boy humor. We also used their Dancing Bears reading program.

 

 

Yes, I was going to add A&P to Barton, sigh... 

 

Barton is working for reading, and beautifully, but spelling is a different story. Rule based learning for spelling is simply not working for him.They just don't seem to stick.

[OneStepAtATime]

Yes, I was going to add A&P to Barton, sigh... 

 

Barton is working for reading, and beautifully, but spelling is a different story. Rule based learning for spelling is simply not working for him.They just don't seem to stick.

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:   Maybe something else for spelling might work better?  

 

How often do you review?  

 

DD can't verbalize the rules well but if I review a lot after each lesson, section of lessons, and level and we do a lot of practice with Barton friendly words outside of normal lessons, as well as play Barton type games, the rules internalize for her.  She isn't memorizing rules, she is learning the rules then applying those rules over and over and over until they internalize and she doesn't have to remember the rule anymore.  Sort of like driving a car and learning where the gear shift is and the pedals and the steering wheel and how to apply all of those things.  At first you are having to remember every single piece and all of those pieces have to fit together correctly and you are awkward and forget stuff and driving isn't smooth at all.  Then the muscle memory develops, etc. and driving becomes a smoother process.  

 

That approach worked well for DD, although it took me a bit to realize that was what we needed to do.  I was just plowing on to the next lesson, assuming it would all just click eventually.  That approach has not worked as well for DS, unfortunately.    

 

I hope you find something that works but keep in mind there is always spell check.  My dad was terrible at spelling his entire life but he still had a very successful career and even wrote a technical manual.  He just needed outside support for the spelling... :)

[MyLittleBears]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:   Maybe something else for spelling might work better?  

 

How often do you review?  

 

DD can't verbalize the rules well but if I review a lot after each lesson, section of lessons, and level and we do a lot of practice with Barton friendly words outside of normal lessons, as well as play Barton type games, the rules internalize for her.  She isn't memorizing rules, she is learning the rules then applying those rules over and over and over until they internalize and she doesn't have to remember the rule anymore.  Sort of like driving a car and learning where the gear shift is and the pedals and the steering wheel and how to apply all of those things.  At first you are having to remember every single piece and all of those pieces have to fit together correctly and you are awkward and forget stuff and driving isn't smooth at all.  Then the muscle memory develops, etc. and driving becomes a smoother process.  

 

That approach worked well for DD, although it took me a bit to realize that was what we needed to do.  I was just plowing on to the next lesson, assuming it would all just click eventually.  That approach has not worked as well for DS, unfortunately.    

 

I hope you find something that works but keep in mind there is always spell check.  My dad was terrible at spelling his entire life but he still had a very successful career and even wrote a technical manual.  He just needed outside support for the spelling... :)

 

 

Yes this makes sense. We review maybe once a week and have played some of the spelling success games. He knows the rules but forgets to apply them. I suppose this mean he has not internalized them. I kind of feels like if we stop and work on spelling, we stall the reading. Meaning he does not lose his reading, only that he does not move forward while we wait for the spelling to catch up. The two skills have not merged unfortunately.

[OneStepAtATime]

Yes this makes sense. We review maybe once a week and have played some of the spelling success games. He knows the rules but forgets to apply them. I suppose this mean he has not internalized them. I kind of feels like if we stop and work on spelling, we stall the reading. Meaning he does not lose his reading, only that he does not move forward while we wait for the spelling to catch up. The two skills have not merged unfortunately.

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

How long does a lesson typically take?  A day?  Two days?  2 weeks?  A month?  I know pacing can vary by lesson and level and definitely by child.  I was curious what your current pace is, roughly.

 

What if you broke the lessons up so at the end of each day there is maybe 10 minutes of writing something that applies those rules.  You could dictate some short sentences or a short passage.  Afterwards you could help him review what he wrote and have him fix any errors with the rules in front of him.  Or instead of writing it, does he type?  Could he type the dictation then correct any words highlighted in red?  Instead of spell check making the correction?

[MyLittleBears]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

How long does a lesson typically take?  A day?  Two days?  2 weeks?  A month?  I know pacing can vary by lesson and level and definitely by child.  I was curious what your current pace is, roughly.

 

What if you broke the lessons up so at the end of each day there is maybe 10 minutes of writing something that applies those rules.  You could dictate some short sentences or a short passage.  Afterwards you could help him review what he wrote and have him fix any errors with the rules in front of him.  Or instead of writing it, does he type?  Could he type the dictation then correct any words highlighted in red?  Instead of spell check making the correction?

 

 

 

That is a great idea! I plan on having him start Type to Spell in a couple of weeks. A typical Barton  lesson probably takes us about 1-1.5 weeks for about 30 minutes 3 or 4 times a week. Perhaps we are moving to fast? 

When I spoke to Susan Barton a couple of months ago she said to give him tally marks everytime he remembers to look at his spelling rule pages or uses his spell checker. I offered him a nickel each tally mark. It's not really making much of a difference. I think we may just start reviewing prior to every session and just shorten the session a bit. 

 

ETA: I like the idea of diction. Sometimes I am tempted to have him join his younger brother for English lesson through lit, but his skill level is not there yet...sigh...

Edited August 4, 2016 by MyLittleBears