What is going on here?

[nature girl]

So we started DD6 on Focalin around 6 weeks ago. She's doing well in most respects, she's in a (mostly non-academic) ESY program and has been successful, no discipline problems at all. So I think she's on the right Focalin dose, but...

 

Certain things have become harder for her. My main concern is her writing, she just seems to freeze up, and she's lost her creativity. In the past couple of years she's written many short stories on her own, but that's stopped altogether. So I bought a couple of workbooks for her (Write About Me/Write About My World) which are definitely at her level, but she goes blank whenever she's supposed to write anything. Even something simple...like the book asked her to list things she could see in her house, and she got so overwhelmed she was in tears not knowing what to write. I asked her to look around the room and just list the first thing her eyes landed on and she sobbed, "I can't do that! What if my eyes land on something stupid like a pencil? Or the table?" This type of thing has happened many times recently, primarily with writing although I've seen her get extremely upset if she gives a wrong answer in math.

 

I've tried scribing for her (she still freezes up) showing her my own writing which is covered with scribbles/carets (I'm an author) to prove that's a necessary part of the writing process, trying to free her up with heavy work, jumping on a trampoline to help stir up ideas...None of it helps. I can move her writing practice to a time the meds are out of her system, but obviously that's not a feasible solution if she's at school. I'm considering backing down on the dose, to see if that makes a difference, even though in most respects this seems like the perfect dose for her.

 

So what about the meds could be causing this? Are they focusing her too much so that she's losing any shred of creativity? Although she's still fine with pretend play/creating art, etc., so could it be anxiety? She's not showing any other signs of anxiety, hasn't for many months, but maybe she has anxiety specifically related to school work?

 

 

[Mom28GreatKids]

It does sound like anxiety- maybe perfectionism induced. Like she is so afraid of being wrong she is shutting down. I have read that this can be a side effect of Focalin. Rats. Hoping you can back off a tiny and still see positive results. I know you are wary of the med shuffle that often comes with starting out meds. Double rats. Keep us posted.

[nature girl]

Ugh, thanks Marie. Do you know if it's specifically Focalin, or if Focalin causes this does that mean all stimulants (or at least all methylphenidates) will?

[Mom28GreatKids]

It seemed like it may have been a Focalin thing for some people. What I read, a couple of people ended up switching to Vyvanse with better results/ less side effects.

[Storygirl]

It sounds like anxiety to me, too. I don't know if it could be related to the meds, but you could talk it over with the doctor.

 

I would also consider whether her anxiety is not med-related but school related, since she started classes this summer, too. Perhaps she is adjusting to the idea that writing is expected to be done a certain way, as required by the teacher, instead of just being an expression of creativity??? She's operating under different expectations now. Maybe asking her to fill in a workbook is backfiring and making it worse?

 

I don't mean necessarily that her teachers are putting any kind of pressure on her, but just that adjusting to school can take some unexpected turns, and it can take time. The fact that she is doing both at once -- new meds and new school -- means it's harder to tease out what might be at the root of the anxiety. Also, her brain might be tired from the new expectations at school and might not be in a good place for writing at home right now. My kids were older when they switched from homeschooling to school, but we definitely had some adjustment issues, and some of them took us by surprise.

 

I might just eliminate any requirements for writing for the next couple of weeks at home but maybe give her a new notebook and pen that she can use whenever she wants without any expectations attached (or not, if she wants to take a break from writing). Just a reminder that she loves to write for fun, but if she wants to do other things instead, it's okay. You can also talk to her teacher to get an idea about whether this is also happening at school.

[nature girl]

It seemed like it may have been a Focalin thing for some people. What I read, a couple of people ended up switching to Vyvanse with better results/ less side effects.

 

I've been doing searches trying to find a link, but haven't found it. Any idea where you saw this?

 

I'm so hesitant to switch to Vyvanse, partly because she's had really no other side effects on focalin, no appetite or sleep issues, and partly because the doctor told me the amphetamines are a more "potent" (her word) med, she doesn't usually prescribe them for kids this young unless their issues are severe, becasue she's noticed more side effects in younger children on adderall or Vyvanse.

 

 

It sounds like anxiety to me, too. I don't know if it could be related to the meds, but you could talk it over with the doctor.

 

I would also consider whether her anxiety is not med-related but school related, since she started classes this summer, too. Perhaps she is adjusting to the idea that writing is expected to be done a certain way, as required by the teacher, instead of just being an expression of creativity??? She's operating under different expectations now. Maybe asking her to fill in a workbook is backfiring and making it worse?

 

I don't mean necessarily that her teachers are putting any kind of pressure on her, but just that adjusting to school can take some unexpected turns, and it can take time. The fact that she is doing both at once -- new meds and new school -- means it's harder to tease out what might be at the root of the anxiety. Also, her brain might be tired from the new expectations at school and might not be in a good place for writing at home right now. My kids were older when they switched from homeschooling to school, but we definitely had some adjustment issues, and some of them took us by surprise.

 

I might just eliminate any requirements for writing for the next couple of weeks at home but maybe give her a new notebook and pen that she can use whenever she wants without any expectations attached (or not, if she wants to take a break from writing). Just a reminder that she loves to write for fun, but if she wants to do other things instead, it's okay. You can also talk to her teacher to get an idea about whether this is also happening at school.

 

They don't really do real writing at school, the ESY is for kids with various LD's, and the only writing is very remedial, coming up with words that rhyme with "Hen" for example. I don't know if she associates writing with starting ps but...maybe? Anxiety about starting school is mingling with the schooling we do at home...I guess that could make sense. It's definitely also exacerbated by the meds, though. I don't see this in the evenings, or on weekends when we take med breaks.

 

I should say that she's always had frustration issues when she has a hard time with something, a creation doesn't come out the way she wanted, she can't put together a Lego structure, etc. I thought of it as frustration tolerance, but it may also have been a tendency toward perfectionism...But it's definitely more intense while the meds are in her system, and...different. Where before she might have screamed and banged on a table and then gotten over it within a minute, now she starts to sob. It's just awful.

[nature girl]

Oh, and to add, she doesn't have ESY on Fridays, but I've been giving her meds to monitor how they're affecting her, and she still acts this way. So it's not a sign of being overwhelmed by being at school in the morning.

 

I've wondered if the workbooks were making things worse, but it's not just the workbook...The other day after she'd put together a paper structure turtle I suggested we work together to write a story about the turtle. She liked the idea at first but she just couldn't, couldn't even come up with the turtle's name...I made various suggestions: What if the turtle gets hit by something? What could he have gotten hit with? (Sobs, she can't think of anything.) Okay, what could come from the sky? Did something fall off a tree? (Sobs.) Let's say it was an acorn! What happens to him? (Sobs.) So we took a break, tried to go back to it later while she was playing calmly, she agreed she wanted to work on the story again, but when I asked her what part of the turtle might have gotten hit she stared at the turtle blankly, couldn't figure out what part was hit so she started sobbing again...

[Mom28GreatKids]

Everything I have read has been anecdotal on parent message boards, but actually I trust those sometimes more than clinical studies. Parents generally know more about what is going on with their kids than clinicians.

 

Here is one:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/opinions/24231

 

And another by what seems an adult on it:

http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25236

Edited July 27, 2016 by Mom28GreatKids

[nature girl]

Ah okay, thanks! So it looks like these are talking about a general increase in anxiety, not just perfectionism. What gets me is that I'm not seeing anxiety in any other form, socially she's exactly the same, no new fears, she's excited about going to ESY every day and never worried about it...it's only associated with school work. If it was garden-variety anxiety (for lack of a better term), wouldn't I be seeing it in other areas as well?

[Mom28GreatKids]

I don't know. She has always seemed to me a bit on the perfectionistic side, so maybe in her brain, this is where it comes out in a sort of fear of failure sort of thing. Like doesn't she sometimes crumple if she messes up an art project? That seems like her area of struggle. Mine has increased areas of anxiety when he thinks no one is there to help interpret for him so he won't be understood and if he perceives people believe he is bad/ or dumb because he cannot speak. So thos are the areas where he has anxiety. I could be wrong, but anxiety builds in areas of uncertainty. She is a social butterfly, so it would make sense that there would be no anxiety there.

[Kanin]

What if you start writing the story by yourself, and don't even say anything about it to her? For example, I'm picturing you sitting at your kitchen table, maybe eating a delicious snack :) and writing a little story about the turtle. Maybe even comic-book style, where you draw little illustrations along with the text. You could even "get frustrated" a little, like, "bah, this turtle looks like a hippopotamus! Dang it, I REALLY wanted it to look good. SIGH!" and then... "Haha, oh well! It's good enough for now, it actually looks kinda cute!" and then move on. Do you think she would be intrigued and watch you? You could just continue on and not even suggest that she join you unless she asks. You could model a way to deal with frustrated behavior.

 

My DH actually sounds a lot like your daughter :) He is a perfectionist, and he is concerned about what people *might* think about him - bosses, other colleagues, etc. He doesn't even like to send an email asking a question because the recipient might think he's "dumb." I used to get pretty frustrated with him and try to reason with him - like "Why are you getting so upset? This is such a small, insignificant problem!  Of COURSE so-and-so won't care if you ask for a new copy of the schedule because you misplaced yours!" etc.

 

It REALLY did not work. In fact, it was awful. Every single time, my reasoning/comforting/etc. backfired and he got even more upset. Over the years, as I've kind of ignored/left the room/sat there and said nothing, I've noticed his perfectionism get a little bit better. It's a lot better when he doesn't have too much stress, when he's feeling healthy (eating well, sleeping well) and seeing friends. He is extremely intelligent (PhD, professor) and does amazing work, probably as a result of his perfectionism, but it's a double-edged sword for sure. Successful people seem very put-together on the outside, but I think many creative/smart/amazing people probably have anxiety around being perfect. 

 

All this to say, it sounds like your daughter is very smart and will probably be very good at many things... and it's good that you're discovering possible perfectionism/anxiety now, when she's little, so she can grow up and have tools to help manage it!   :)

 

Oh, one more thing - I was just listening to an NPR thing about praising kids. The expert on the show (maybe a professor, a researcher?) was talking about how if you praise a kid for doing something well - like "you're so smart, wow, you're really good at drawing" - that kind of praise actually has a negative effect and makes the kid think they are naturally good at some things, and bad at others. In other words, they think that ability is fixed. You either have it... or you don't. If you praise more abstract things like effort, patience, perseverance, kids develop a more flexible mindset. They think that they may not be good at everything YET, but that it's possible. You can even specifically say, "Wow, you didn't handle your frustration perfectly YET, but I can tell you were really trying!" Kids will get the message that while they didn't succeed at the moment, success is possible with hard work.

 

Edited July 27, 2016 by Mainer

[nature girl]

I don't know. She has always seemed to me a bit on the perfectionistic side, so maybe in her brain, this is where it comes out in a sort of fear of failure sort of thing. Like doesn't she sometimes crumple if she messes up an art project? That seems like her area of struggle. Mine has increased areas of anxiety when he thinks no one is there to help interpret for him so he won't be understood and if he perceives people believe he is bad/ or dumb because he cannot speak. So thos are the areas where he has anxiety. I could be wrong, but anxiety builds in areas of uncertainty. She is a social butterfly, so it would make sense that there would be no anxiety there.

 

That makes a lot of sense. Yes, she has always had perfectionist tendencies, and like I said earlier I think a lot of what I might have seen as low frustration tolerance might have been anxiety associated with not doing something perfectly. Which kills me. :(

 

Mainer, I love your ideas, I'm going to try that this afternoon! Will report back once I do...

 

Re: praising effort rather than results, I'd read similar studies and it's something I've tried to do from when she was a toddler. (Not perfectly, though...it's so hard to stop myself from praising a picture and instead say, "I love how you kept going till you were done!" That feels so forced!) But I've been trying to be much more conscious about that. I do wonder if some of my exclamations trying to encourage her ("Wow, I can't believe you could read that hard word!") have really fed into her natural tendencies. Plus people are always telling her she's smart, and I think that makes her put so much pressure on herself.

[kbutton]

Meds can bring a great awareness of yourself, the scrutiny of others (real or perceived), etc. I would guess that this day was coming at some point, but the meds made it come a little more forcefully.

 

That would be my guess.

 

My kiddo started thinking he couldn't sing when on meds--his singing didn't change at all, and is very nice. It's that he was aware people were watching him, and he was kind of freezing up. We talked about it, and he's fine. I imagine some people need more tools than that, but he doesn't have a lot of perfectionistic tendencies.

[kbutton]

BTW, maybe she's hearing stories from books in a new light (comparing hers to them), or maybe kids at school tell stories, and she feels like theirs are better. That could be feeding into this--more awareness might mean more comparison of herself with others.

[Storygirl]

DS11 seems to be a perfectionist with anxiety (still trying to figure out his deal, but to me this seems part of it). And he often refuses to try something if he thinks he may not be able to do it. It became a great hindrance when we were homeschooling, and it has cropped up in the classroom as well, though not as frequently as at home.

 

That combo is a hard one. We haven't figured out the best way to address it yet.

[Storygirl]

Also, I agree with kbutton!

[Mom28GreatKids]

DS11 seems to be a perfectionist with anxiety (still trying to figure out his deal, but to me this seems part of it). And he often refuses to try something if he thinks he may not be able to do it. It became a great hindrance when we were homeschooling, and it has cropped up in the classroom as well, though not as frequently as at home.

 

That combo is a hard one. We haven't figured out the best way to address it yet.

My oldest is like this. He won't try something unless he is sure he will be good at it. Definitely limiting. He has a perceived notion of what he is good at and won't venture beyond.

 

I agree with the forced feeling of "I love how hard your worked on that!". Not my natural inclination. We tend to just emphasize that hard work usually produces quality. But certainly worth it to try that approach. And if her awareness of other's perception has awakened, I believe as she grows and perceives people really do like what she produces, the anxiousness responses will lesson.

Edited July 27, 2016 by Mom28GreatKids

[PeterPan]

I think she had this before and it's just more apparent now.  You're going to want some behavioral strategies in addition to the meds.  Mention it to the school and see what they'll do.  If it's happening with you, it's happening there too or will happen when they try those tasks.