Help with Math...Theodore and Simon want to ditch

[Ewe Mama]

CLE? I have convinced Alvin that he is fine sticking with it as he has good retention. Once he gets over his mumbling and grumbling he usually does quite well.

 

Simon and Theodore are a different story. I was giving them placement tests for various well-known curriculum. They totally bombed the one for Saxon Math. I think the wording of some of the problems threw them off. They could do the calculations of the straightforward problems very easily, but anything of the word problem variety was missed.

 

They did much better on the Teaching Textbooks tests, but they still placed only in Level 5, which would basically be 4, wouldn't it? They would still basically be in 4th grade math after working their tails off all year. I would still use it though and hope that the novelty of the cd-rom format would carry them through the lessons at a quicker pace and then bump them up to Level 6. My hesitation is that I keep hearing it is not very rigorous. Neither one of them has any idea about what field they want to go in to. Plus I wonder if it would be like offering them the candy version of a math program, all the fun taste, but very little nutritional value. They each have the aptitude for math, but I want to find something to help their attitude in slogging through it.

 

I have never used Singapore. Is that something we could easily step in to, or has that boat long sailed? I would like to get them thinking more mathematically, so that word problems do not make them shrivel up in fear and self-doubt. I have always had to help them with the CLE word problems and have made up similar problems for extra practice, but apparently that wasn't enough to give them any confidence in word problems.

 

I have tried Key to books to supplement, but then they forget the other things they had learned and it is like starting from square one again. I have considered MUS, but the fact that it is mastery makes me nervous. We have and dislike MM across the board.

 

What other non-Internet options are available? What do you think would be a good fit for my math-capable, but math-hating boys that might make them tolerate or -gasp- perhaps even like math again?

 

 

I think Teaching Testbooks is at the top of the list right now.

 

 

ETA. I think it would be best for me to step back as their math teacher for now as my explanations just frustrate them further. This is why TT is at the top of the list. A highly scripted program that I couldn't screw up would be an acceptable option, however.

Edited July 8, 2016 by Ewe Mama

[maize]

What about Beast Academy paired with the Prodigy Math Game? 

 

I don't understand why you want to teach them to just slog through math, our brains aren't designed to learn and retain when something is just hard and painful and doesn't interest us. I personally would aim for making math interesting enough that they can enjoy doing it.

 

Beast Academy makes things interesting, engaging kids in problem solving and deep conceptual understanding. Prodigy gives them a chance to practice math skills, even the not fun operation and rote memorization bits, in a motivating environment--less painful and more fun, which helps kids get through the sloggy parts. 

[Ewe Mama]

Thanks, maize. I added info to my OP about needing to step back as their math teacher for fear I am just making it worse by frustrating them. Is BA scripted or very independent? I have often thought it looks like a very fun program, but didn't know if it would be a good fit for either of them. They are both do it and get it done boys, so they might not be receptive to anything that takes more than the cursory calculations.

 

I will show them samples.

[mamamoose]

Beast is very independent--or at least it's written that way. But to be honest, my dd does not do well with self teaching and the problems are completely different than any other math program out there, so she struggles and still needs help. She does enjoy it though. I'm debating between continuing with Right Start/MM or switching to Beast/MM. We love MM but we've been using it to practice RS more--RS is game heavy and I just can't teach that much and then play games as well, with 3 kids in it.

[Ewe Mama]

Beast is very independent--or at least it's written that way. But to be honest, my dd does not do well with self teaching and the problems are completely different than any other math program out there, so she struggles and still needs help. She does enjoy it though. I'm debating between continuing with Right Start/MM or switching to Beast/MM. We love MM but we've been using it to practice RS more--RS is game heavy and I just can't teach that much and then play games as well, with 3 kids in it.

I hear you about the game playing. I feel like my eldest go the benefit of all my one-on-one time and the others are getting the dregs from my attention bowl.

[Ewe Mama]

I forgot to mention that I am having a dickens of a time trying to get Prodigy math to work on my computer.

[Ewe Mama]

So, what about combining TT with BA? That way they could have the consistency of a spiral program combined with a fun but designed to get them thinking more mathematically game component? I would continue to work on getting Prodigy to work, but but in the meantime, would that be a good compromise? I would probably start BA at the earliest level and have them gradually work their way up.

[maize]

I forgot to mention that I am having a dickens of a time trying to get Prodigy math to work on my computer.

Hm, what seems to be the trouble?

[maize]

So, what about combining TT with BA? That way they could have the consistency of a spiral program combined with a fun but designed to get them thinking more mathematically game component? I would continue to work on getting Prodigy to work, but but in the meantime, would that be a good compromise? I would probably start BA at the earliest level and have them gradually work their way up.

I think that could work well.

[OneStepAtATime]

So, what about combining TT with BA? That way they could have the consistency of a spiral program combined with a fun but designed to get them thinking more mathematically game component? I would continue to work on getting Prodigy to work, but but in the meantime, would that be a good compromise? I would probably start BA at the earliest level and have them gradually work their way up.

That might work well.

 

I want to clarify something, though.  Are you saying that your sons seem to do well with straight computation but are struggling from the conceptual side?  Or just the word problems?  How do they do when reading literature?  Do they understand well when reading, not in a general sense but if they have to analyze something?

 

Honestly, instead of just hopping curriculum, I would first be trying to delve into where their struggles and strengths are in math then determine how to shore up the struggle areas.  It seems they have consistently had some issue with math but you feel they are strong in some areas as well.  That can be really tricky.  And you are saying that your oldest kind of gets the bulk of your time in this area?  Could you look into a tutor, at least short term, to maybe help you tweak out what is tripping the younger ones up?

 

Maybe they need something spiral like CLE coupled with something conceptual at a lower level like perhaps the word problem practice books from Singapore or Math in Focus.  Or maybe they need Beast Academy with Prodigy or TT.  Or something else entirely.  Until you understand where their real issues are, it may be hard to know.

[Ewe Mama]

They are totally fine with reading and analyzing other material.

 

I remember having the same frustration with math when I was their age. Just give me problems to compute. Don't give me convoluted word problems that I have to sift through to find the pertinent information and then figure out which computation is necessary to find the information that is required to find the answer.

 

Although I did not have the privilege of bearing them, they are totally my boys when it comes to rationalizing reasons to NOT do word problems. 🙄

 

My reference to my eldest getting the benefit of one-on-one time was to when she was the only one being taught, while the youngers were all napping during her school time with me.

Edited July 8, 2016 by Ewe Mama

[OneStepAtATime]

They are totally fine with reading and analyzing other material.

 

I remember having the same frustration with math when I was their age. Just give me problems to compute. Don't give me convoluted word problems that I have to sift through to find the pertinent information and then figure out which computation is necessary to find the information that is required to find the answer.

 

Although I did not have the privilege of bearing them, they are totally my boys when it comes to rationalizing reasons to NOT do word problems. 🙄

 

My reference to my eldest getting the benefit of one-on-one time was to when she was the only one being taught, while the youngers were all napping during her school time with me.

Totally understand that.

 

The thing is, the word problems are what they will deal with in real life.  Life is word problems.  If they are struggling with the word problems (and I definitely did, too, when I was in school), maybe what they need is something very targeted to word problems that is separate from the main lesson.  Something that will very specifically help them break down the wording/vocabulary to help with comprehension of what is being asked.  Have you tried using manipulatives to help with understanding what is being asked? I am linking an example...

 

http://www.hmhco.com/~/media/sites/home/education/global/pdf/white-papers/mathematics/elementary/math-in-focus/mif_model_drawing_lr.pdf?la=en

 

I found when I had to go back and teach my own kids that even though I had been able to get through the algorithms of math, I actually was very weak in conceptual understanding and place value.  Perhaps they need more targeted help in understanding the concepts behind the computation?  Beast might be great for that.

[Ewe Mama]

Hm, what seems to be the trouble?

we can't seem to enter the answers into the fields. There is no cursor and nothing happens when we try to highlight it and enter it. The kids are desperate for it to work, and they take turns yelling at it when each time we try it again.

[Ewe Mama]

Totally understand that.

 

The thing is, the word problems are what they will deal with in real life. Life is word problems. If they are struggling with the word problems (and I definitely did, too, when I was in school), maybe what they need is something very targeted to word problems that is separate from the main lesson. Something that will very specifically help them break down the wording/vocabulary to help with comprehension of what is being asked. Have you tried using manipulatives to help with understanding what is being asked? I am linking an example...

 

http://www.hmhco.com/~/media/sites/home/education/global/pdf/white-papers/mathematics/elementary/math-in-focus/mif_model_drawing_lr.pdf?la=en

 

I found when I had to go back and teach my own kids that even though I had been able to get through the algorithms of math, I actually was very weak in conceptual understanding and place value. Perhaps they need more targeted help in understanding the concepts behind the computation? Beast might be great for that.

I actually purchased a couple of the Challenging Word problems books to try to help increase their understanding of it and they groused and grumbled their way through all of it. Did I stick with it? No. I wanted math to be fun and they hated it, so we shelved it. I lack the ability to provide clear, simple examples and help when needed. Alvin gets me because he is just as convoluted and distracted in his processing as I am. It's messy in that brain, but somehow he untangles it all and makes sense of it. Theo and Simon need clear and concise, which I am not!

 

Do you think the MIF books might be a better fit for them? I keep looking at all the Singapore book options and throw up my hands because I can't figure out what would work best for whom in which situation. I react the way they react when faced with word problems. I'm going to pick the wrong book (operation) and screw up the child (solution) so what's the point of even trying anymore.

 

I need someone to tell me, "Get this book because it has the clearest explanations and all you need to do is sit beside them and make sure they understand what to do. You don't need to explain the process because it's all in there for them to follow along and it is clear enough that a Guinea pig could do it. " (not that I'd ever compare my darling children to Guinea pigs.)

Edited July 8, 2016 by Ewe Mama

[Guest]

Sounds like adding in something that directly targets word problems would fix your problem. CLE is meant to be self-teaching from 200 on. I think lots of kids hit a wall around 4th grade math. I know all my boys did and are now. But if you push through, then you are golden. I would not switch to something new and shiny. Just supplement the weak area. Singapore and Math in Focus, among others, have books just for word problems. It would certainly be less $$ than TT!

 

The other one I thought of was BJU Math with the DVD/Online bit. 

[OneStepAtATime]

You might consider continuing on with CLE as the spine but hire a math tutor to help you weed through and get started on something to shore up the word problem difficulties.  Maybe do it just for a semester until things get more solid and you get used to that kind of instruction?  Perhaps there is a veteran homeschooler that could help you out, if you couldn't find a professional tutor?  Since this is an area of struggle for you, also, just jumping straight into materials from Singapore or MiF might be hard for you to implement without help or starting from the early levels.  And since this is an area of struggle for your children they would almost certainly not be able to self-teach it.

[Jackie]

Beast Academy is a fantastic program, so if that fits, I recommend it.

 

If that doesn't fit, how about Math Mammoth? The teaching is directly in the workbook, and the vast majority of the problems are the more straightforward type. We've used some of their topical series as a supplement and my daughter could usually just read the explanation and do it. But the math is far more conceptual than CLE, from my understanding. It's more the conceptual approach of Singapore, but taught directly to the student and all in one book.

[SoCal_Bear]

If you want to try Singapore Math style word problems which is essentially applying math for problem solving, then I would suggest trying the Fan Math series. I would even consider started a level or two lower than where you are at. 

When a student is good at computational skills and not word problems, that is usually an indicator that a student has memorized an algorithm and may not really understand the why behind the math. If they struggle with word problems, then there is a gap between their ability to calculate and their ability to recognize 1) what the problem is asking and 2) applying the math they know to solve the problem. Or to put it another way, they don't have a solid conceptual grasp of math in order to recognize and apply math.

CWP is not necessary and probably overkill. Fan Math actually will teach you step by step how to solve Singapore style word problems. The quality of word problems that my son is exposed to doing SM is far and away above anything that I ever saw growing up.  

 

Here's the link for you at Rainbow Resource:

https://www.rainbowresource.com/prodlist.php?subject=Mathematics/10&category=Process+Skills+in+Problem+Solving/492

 

Edited July 8, 2016 by calbear

[kiwik]

Yes try the Fan Math Process skills books. Start at level one if you can and emphasise that they are learning the method not the maths. If you are in the US they are fairly cheap and they could probably share for the first few levels. Try and teach them to enjoy the problem solving aspect. Actually look at logic safari or countdown to logic or even lollipop logic from Prufrock Press for a family activity over summer. Problem solving is harder but it is more useful and can be more rewarding than number crunching. And you can make it rewarding if you have to.

[ondreeuh]

Do you think the MIF books might be a better fit for them? I keep looking at all the Singapore book options and throw up my hands because I can't figure out what would work best for whom in which situation. I react the way they react when faced with word problems. I'm going to pick the wrong book (operation) and screw up the child (solution) so what's the point of even trying anymore.

 

I need someone to tell me, "Get this book because it has the clearest explanations and all you need to do is sit beside them and make sure they understand what to do. You don't need to explain the process because it's all in there for them to follow along and it is clear enough that a Guinea pig could do it. " (not that I'd ever compare my darling children to Guinea pigs.)

Yes, Math in Focus could be this. The explanations are extremely clear, with lots of photos of manipulative a and lost of diagrams showing how the math works. It teaches how to use models to solve word problems, so that you can quickly sketch out how the pieces of information are related and see what is missing. I used/tried Singapore, Horizons, CLE, MM, MIF and Saxon with my older son, and I have stuck with MIF with my younger one. It is a program that can be hard to jump in to at upper levels because it uses the word problem strategies each year with more complex problems.

 

If you are interested in a word problem supplement, the 70 Must Know Word Problems books solely focus on bar modeling. The Process Skills in Process Solving books teach bar modeling and some other strategies. I would not avoid word problems because hey are hard; I would FOCUS on them because they are hard and you have uncovered a weakness. Math isn't just learning how to use individual tools, it is facing a complex problem, choosing the tools to use, and then using them correctly.

[vaquitita]

I have a boy who is good at math, but doesn't enjoy it. He's definitely a do it and get it done kid. While he understands concepts quickly, he isn't interested enough to pay attention long enough to multi step algorithms. Singapore math worked well for him, but I ended up ditching it after two years because of the too many options, too many books drove me crazy. I liked it and would have stuck with it if it was more user friendly. He likes beast academy, but it is too frustrating for him to use every day. Right now we use a combo of MUS and beast which I'm pretty happy with. One day a week he does beast academy, sometimes on his own, sometimes with help. He enjoys it and likes all the alternative ways to think about math. Four days a week he does MUS which is straight forward, easy to teach, plenty of review so that he has finally mastered the multi digit multiplication algorithm (there were some tears there, till he finally figured out that if he just did it the same way every time that when he got distracted in the middle he could still come back to it and finish it correctly. He was doing it a different way every time, to make it more 'interesting' Lol. Amazingly, the simple get r done approach of MUS has allowed him to go back to enjoying math *outside his lesson*. He was a kid who was always seeing math in the world around him, but stopped because he now hated math, even though he didn't hate Singapore math. I guess it just used up all his math enthusiasm. Idk. All I know is a few weeks into our switch to MUS, math made a reappearance as dinner time conversation (prime numbers). I'm not 100% happy with the MUS progression, but if we stick with it it does cover everything eventually. MUS may not have the most challenging word problems, but beast academy is all word problems.

[Ewe Mama]

Once the boys looked at the TT samples, they fell in love. They were sitting here all morning, doing the sample lessons, over and over again. I debated on ordering two copies of the workbook, but only ended up with one, as I figured I could probably have each of them work some of the problems on the computer and some of them in the book, or they could even alternate day on the computer. Alvin was quite interested, too, so it may be a fun addition to CLE for him.

 

I also showed them the BA samples. They were cautiously enthusiastic. They liked the comic book format and the characters, but they weren't sure if they would be able to do the problems correctly. I told them I would join in whenever things got tough and we could try to work the puzzles out together. We are going to treat it as a fun puzzle book to spend time with, but nothing to stress out over. I ordered the level 3 book set for all of us to share.

 

I am considering the other recommendations, as well, but will hold off until I see how things roll with BA.

 

I do so appreciate the suggestions! If these guys can become enthusiastic about numbers again, it will be well worth the financial investment.

[Ewe Mama]

I forgot to add that I own some of the lower level Fan Math books. I forgot I had them and didn't recognize the title when they were mentioned. Thanks for the link! That triggered my memory. I will pull them out and we can play with those until the other books arrive!

 

It feels so good to have a plan! Optimism is good!