Charlotte Mason method of composition

[lorisuewho]

Has anyone successfully used the Charlotte Mason method of writing through high school?  I'm reading volume 6 of her works and I'm totally hung up on the concept of the teacher NOT teaching composition to her students except for some slight direction in 11th and 12th grades.  She seems to have required a lot of higher order thinking skills in her narrations as students progressed through the grades, but how does that translate into written narrations and various forms of formal writing if there is no instruction given?

 

I am so confused.

[KeriJ]

This is such a good question. One I have pondered often. I have thoughts, but no time at the moment.

 

I look forward to others' thoughts on this.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

This is just my opinion, having much younger students...

 

If your kids have been responding and growing well with CM methods all along, writing strong, interesting work is probably going to come "naturally".  

 

But, CM never had to deal with things like "the 5 paragraph essay" writing for easy evaluation, scientific reports, and a few other writing styles that may be somewhat unique to our time.  I plan to explicitly teach those formats because, whatever your opinion may be on if they qualify as "good writing," they are a part of the modern evaluation system.  Sigh.  

[KeriJ]

Are you on the SCM board?  If not, here is a thread from years ago that addressed many of the questions.  I refer to it often and even printed some of it out. :)

https://simplycharlottemason.com/scmforum/topic/writing-advice/

 

[KeriJ]

This is just my opinion, having much younger students...

 

If your kids have been responding and growing well with CM methods all along, writing strong, interesting work is probably going to come "naturally".  

 

But, CM never had to deal with things like "the 5 paragraph essay" writing for easy evaluation, scientific reports, and a few other writing styles that may be somewhat unique to our time.  I plan to explicitly teach those formats because, whatever your opinion may be on if they qualify as "good writing," they are a part of the modern evaluation system.  Sigh.  

 

One of the points made in the thread I linked was that once a student learned to fill up a page, having something to say, and saying it clearly, you could easily teach different formats in the later years.

[lorisuewho]

Are you on the SCM board?  If not, here is a thread from years ago that addressed many of the questions.  I refer to it often and even printed some of it out. :)

https://simplycharlottemason.com/scmforum/topic/writing-advice/

 

I will head over there now to read the thread.  I honestly have tried to read her works for myself and not hang out too much over at SCM or amblesideonline (although I admit to doing quite a bit of reading at charlottemasonhelp.com).  I wanted to decide for myself what a CM education should look like today based on her principles and methods, and not get hung up in the past or compromise too much because today is not then.  But now I'm at the point of needing to discuss some of this with people!  Thank you for the link.  I'm looking forward to reading it.

[KeriJ]

I will say that for me it translates into working on narrations first: oral, then written.  then using a writing program later. 

 

I don't think that Charlotte "didn't use a writing program".  I'm sure she trained her teachers to ask specific questions that would produce specific types of writing in the later years.  It just wasn't a published program.  If you read the questions she asked and the types of narrations she required, you will find that they are not much different than what is taught in traditional or classical writing curricula.  We just tend to push the published curriculum earlier.

[KeriJ]

I will head over there now to read the thread.  I honestly have tried to read her works for myself and not hang out too much over at SCM or amblesideonline (although I admit to doing quite a bit of reading at charlottemasonhelp.com).  I wanted to decide for myself what a CM education should look like today based on her principles and methods, and not get hung up in the past or compromise too much because today is not then.  But now I'm at the point of needing to discuss some of this with people!  Thank you for the link.  I'm looking forward to reading it.

 

It was helpful because there were moms on there speaking from personal experience having just focused on narrations until the later years.  Kids who went off to college and aced their English classes. :)

[lorisuewho]

It was helpful because there were moms on there speaking from personal experience having just focused on narrations until the later years.  Kids who went off to college and aced their English classes. :)

 

Wow!  Great thread on SCM!  Thank you!  I'm sitting with some of the ideas now in my head.

 

[Kfamily]

My older daughter just graduated this past May from high school and was dual-enrolled her last semester as a senior at our local state/community college. One of her classes was one of two required English classes, this particular one focused on composition exclusively. She'll be taking the 2nd class, which includes composition but has literature as well, in the fall. She made an "A" in her composition class and made an "A" or high "B" on all of her papers. She was homeschooled from the very beginning and took no online classes or outside classes, except for this particular final semester. We have followed the CM methods since she was in 2nd grade.

 

However, I wasn't always confident in my own abilities to teach writing and she did some work in classical writing curricula...mainly those which focus on the progymnasmata. So, she did Writing Tales 2 and parts of Classical Writing's Homer and Maxim. She also continued with grammar instruction throughout and read The Elements of Style, independently. 

 

Dd wrote and gave orally narrations all throughout, kept a commonplace book, studied English grammar, has one credit in Latin and two credits in French and had dictation for many years. I'm sharing all of this to give as complete a picture as possible. :)

 

I think part of the problem with CM and composition is that much of what methods were used are so unclear. I know that it reads that she delayed explicit teaching of composition until the students were 15 or so, but I think that part of the unknown is what exactly was taught in the years before. Many of the written narration assignments tended to include a lot of precursor work to essay writing. In fact, many have compared a number of these assignments as similar to progymnasmata work. This is one area that I've tried to develop in the guides that I've been writing. I've expanded on what I think was included in a the CM education, but really, I would think that if she were alive today she would have too. We must expand on it. She developed her methods and curricula to develop the minds of students of her time period. We must expand to develop the minds of our time period. I think you can follow the "heart" of Charlotte Mason's ideas and overall approach and yet still make adjustments as best fits our own time period and our own family/personal lives.

 

I don't think that no instruction was given, I just think that it looked differently from what we see and expect today. CM students were writing essays by Year 10, but the years before that were spent writing narrations in response to literature, current events, drama, poetry and more. Many of the assignments of today in both high school and college are reader response type assignments. Narrations are very similar to this. But, again, I did add to these written assignments by asking my dd to write narrations based on speeches and primary sources, to write historical background papers, to write character sketches and to write papers based on science journal articles. I think that all of this led us quite easily to a place where putting together an essay was not an issue. I did explicitly teach her in text documentation and how to write bibliographies and works cited pages. I also used the 5-paragraph essay section from Classical Writing's Maxim. I was very familiar with the 5 paragraph essay and set up the guidelines for writing this format when she wrote her more edited and finished papers for me.

 

Also, her English composition class was never set up in the typical 5 paragraph essay style. She was expected to meet expectations and to meet a specific word count, but was never limited to 5 paragraphs. Her professor's focus was more concentrated on whether her paragraphs supported her thesis and whether the sentences within the paragraphs supported the topic of that paragraph. Truly, much of this evolves over time. It is so hard to see how well this all comes together if your first child has not yet been through this. I feel so much more confident now about what I'm teaching and when and in what way now that I have one who has moved on to college. One of the reasons she did so well in her class was because she had a good writing "voice". She knew how to use words to communicate effectively and this came from a lifetime of narrations. She's been telling what she thinks and what she knows about something she's just read or learned for years now. I think that the structural elements are easy to teach. It's the comfort with writing and words that is so much harder to teach. Many of her classmates struggled not because they didn't know how to cite a source properly or how to arrange a paper into paragraphs, but more because they didn't know what to "say" and they didn't know how to "say" it in a style that was interesting and effective. They struggled with how to convey their thoughts and ideas and often had trouble with even what their thoughts were about a topic. I believe some also struggled with how to support a thesis, so this would be one area that would need time to be spent.

 

Edited July 7, 2016 by Kfamily

[KeriJ]

My older daughter just graduated this past May from high school and was dual-enrolled her last semester as a senior at our local state/community college. One of her classes was one of two required English classes, this particular one focused on composition exclusively. She'll be taking the 2nd class, which includes composition but has literature as well, in the fall. She made an "A" in her composition class and made an "A" or high "B" on all of her papers. She was homeschooled from the very beginning and took no online classes or outside classes, except for this particular final semester. We have followed the CM methods since she was in 2nd grade.

 

However, I wasn't always confident in my own abilities to teach writing and she did some work in classical writing curricula...mainly those which focus on the progymnasmata. So, she did Writing Tales 2 and parts of Classical Writing's Homer and Maxim. She also continued with grammar instruction throughout and read The Elements of Style, independently.

 

Dd wrote and gave orally narrations all throughout, kept a commonplace book, studied English grammar, has one credit in Latin and two credits in French and had dictation for many years. I'm sharing all of this to give as complete a picture as possible. :)

 

I think part of the problem with CM and composition is that much of what methods were used are so unclear. I know that it reads that she delayed explicit teaching of composition until the students were 15 or so, but I think that part of the unknown is what exactly was taught in the years before. Many of the written narration assignments tended to include a lot of precursor work to essay writing. In fact, many have compared a number of these assignments as similar to progymnasmata work. This is one area that I've tried to develop in the guides that I've been writing. I've expanded on what I think was included in a the CM education, but really, I would think that if she were alive today she would have too. We must expand on it. She developed her methods and curricula to develop the minds of students of her time period. We must expand to develop the minds of our time period. I think you can follow the "heart" of Charlotte Mason's ideas and overall approach and yet still make adjustments as best fits our own time period and our own family/personal lives.

 

I don't think that no instruction was given, I just think that it looked differently from what we see and expect today. CM students were writing essays by Year 10, but the years before that were spent writing narrations in response to literature, current events, drama, poetry and more. Many of the assignments of today in both high school and college are reader response type assignments. Narrations are very similar to this. But, again, I did add to these written assignments by asking my dd to write narrations based on speeches and primary sources, to write historical background papers, to write character sketches and to write papers based on science journal articles. I think that all of this led us quite easily to a place where putting together an essay was not an issue. I did explicitly teach her in text documentation and how to write bibliographies and works cited pages. I also used the 5-paragraph essay section from Classical Writing's Maxim. I was very familiar with the 5 paragraph essay and set up the guidelines for writing this format when she wrote her more edited and finished papers for me.

 

Also, her English composition class was never set up in the typical 5 paragraph essay style. She was expected to meet expectations and to meet a specific word count, but was never limited to 5 paragraphs. Her professor's focus was more concentrated on whether her paragraphs supported her thesis and whether the sentences within the paragraphs supported the topic of that paragraph. Truly, much of this evolves over time. It is so hard to see how well this all comes together if your first child has not yet been through this. I feel so much more confident now about what I'm teaching and when and in what way now that I have one who has moved on to college. One of the reasons she did so well in her class was because she had a good writing "voice". She knew how to use words to communicate effectively and this came from a lifetime of narrations. She's been telling what she thinks and what she knows about something she's just read or learned for years now. I think that the structural elements are easy to teach. It's the comfort with writing and words that is so much harder to teach. Many of her classmates struggled not because they didn't know how to cite a source properly or how to arrange a paper into paragraphs, but more because they didn't know what to "say" and they didn't know how to "say" it in a style that was interesting and effective. They struggled with how to convey their thoughts and ideas and often had trouble with even what their thoughts were about a topic. I believe some also struggled with how to support a thesis, so this would be one area that would need time to be spent.

â¤

[lorisuewho]

Thank you so much for taking the time to write out your experience.  This is exactly what interests me.  People who have journeyed with CM from the beginning to the end, and how writing looked through the years.

 

 

 

I think part of the problem with CM and composition is that much of what methods were used are so unclear. I know that it reads that she delayed explicit teaching of composition until the students were 15 or so, but I think that part of the unknown is what exactly was taught in the years before. Many of the written narration assignments tended to include a lot of precursor work to essay writing. In fact, many have compared a number of these assignments as similar to progymnasmata work. This is one area that I've tried to develop in the guides that I've been writing. I've expanded on what I think was included in a the CM education, but really, I would think that if she were alive today she would have too. We must expand on it. She developed her methods and curricula to develop the minds of students of her time period. We must expand to develop the minds of our time period. I think you can follow the "heart" of Charlotte Mason's ideas and overall approach and yet still make adjustments as best fits our own time period and our own family/personal lives.

 

I don't think that no instruction was given, I just think that it looked differently from what we see and expect today.

 

I agree with the quoted part above that we do not know exactly what her methods were.  And yet in volume 6 she writes "But let me say again there must be no attempt to teach composition."  What in the world does she mean by that?  She IS clearly at minimum guiding their written narrations into deeper thought and analysis.  And she teaches grammar explicitly.  If we are not using a curriculum but still guiding students into different types of writing and giving pointers and corrections here and there, are we not still tutoring or teaching a child composition?  So what does she mean by she is not teaching composition?  She's so adamant about it.
 

[quietchapel]

Thank you so much for taking the time to write out your experience. This is exactly what interests me. People who have journeyed with CM from the beginning to the end, and how writing looked through the years.

 

 

 

I agree with the quoted part above that we do not know exactly what her methods were. And yet in volume 6 she writes "But let me say again there must be no attempt to teach composition." What in the world does she mean by that? She IS clearly at minimum guiding their written narrations into deeper thought and analysis. And she teaches grammar explicitly. If we are not using a curriculum but still guiding students into different types of writing and giving pointers and corrections here and there, are we not still tutoring or teaching a child composition? So what does she mean by she is not teaching composition? She's so adamant about it.

 

My guess is that she was advocating letting the students' writing develop according to their voice and ideas through narration rather than via a form. So, rather teaching a child that a paragraph is constructed a certain way and then having the child produce paragraphs according to the prescribed model, we start with their thoughts/ narrations and then teach appropriate paragraphing.

 

This school year I caught myself wanting a writing 'program'. After reflecting on this, I realized it was because I feel incompetent at teaching writing. Writing well requires proficiency with so many individual skills, and I was feeling overwhelmed. I wonder if other parents have had similar experiences and if this is at the root of the struggle with CM and composition.

 

To address this for myself, I am working through a variety of grammar and writing resources over the summer. I've found R&S English to be the most helpful so far, but I have a whole stack to work through!

[....]

Has anyone successfully used the Charlotte Mason method of writing through high school?  I

 

I'm definitely not an expert.  We're using the CM method for high school, but not only have we just started, but it's virtually impossible to find anyone else who does high school using that method (so it's hard to find anyone to talk to about it). 

 

Somewhere on the Ambleside Online forums, a lady posted a rubric for narrations for high schoolers.  The idea of the rubric was that narrations in high school can be much more than just a short summary of what they read.  Her rubric included things like character development, emerging themes, significance of events, plot advancement, why an event is important, etc.  So, I'm thinking of each narration as more of a mini-essay, because when I think of narrations, I think of a 3-4 sentence summary of something (and I know that's a simplistic view of them).  They can be so much more complex as the kid gets older.  

[KeriJ]

I'm definitely not an expert. We're using the CM method for high school, but not only have we just started, but it's virtually impossible to find anyone else who does high school using that method (so it's hard to find anyone to talk to about it).

 

Somewhere on the Ambleside Online forums, a lady posted a rubric for narrations for high schoolers. The idea of the rubric was that narrations in high school can be much more than just a short summary of what they read. Her rubric included things like character development, emerging themes, significance of events, plot advancement, why an event is important, etc. So, I'm thinking of each narration as more of a mini-essay, because when I think of narrations, I think of a 3-4 sentence summary of something (and I know that's a simplistic view of them). They can be so much more complex as the kid gets older.

This is something that always confuses me. If someone is going to use a detailed rubric, then why not use a curriculum that covers the same things?

[quietchapel]

This is something that always confuses me. If someone is going to use a detailed rubric, then why not use a curriculum that covers the same things?

Agreed. These were some of my other thoughts as I reflected on the past school year. We've been using Ambleside, and it has utterly worn me out because I end up doing the work that a study guide would do. I spend so much time looking through the available resources for each year, printing guides, printing maps, etc. Then, for the books that do not have guides, I pre-read and make notes. Then I wonder whether all the paper and ink I use cost as much as simply buying prepared curricula.

 

I realize this is reflective of how I use AO, and not of the majority, but there must be others who use it similarly, judging by all the resources for each year for maps, notebooking, etc.

 

In reference to the rubric for high school writing, I have seen this and others for lower grades. I have read marvelous ideas for creative narration prompts. But I have neither the energy nor desire to compile and organize all of those. I'd rather just open up an IEW student guide and use their suggestions!

 

I suppose most of this is reflective of my personality. I just want a simple, neat checklist that I trust to help me accomplish our education goals- anyone have one?😉

[lorisuewho]

This is something that always confuses me. If someone is going to use a detailed rubric, then why not use a curriculum that covers the same things?

Yes.  What is the difference?  I think very little. 

 

 

I suppose most of this is reflective of my personality. I just want a simple, neat checklist that I trust to help me accomplish our education goals- anyone have one?😉

I'd like a checklist also!

 

I wasn't using all those resources you listed for each book.  That makes me tired just thinking about it.  My plan is always read and then narrate.  Many of those extras just get between the child and the book. I actually don't really follow amblesideonline.  I choose my own books.  I think there is a fine balance between keeping things simple, keeping things true to the CM method, and making sure our children can do all the skills necessary for life and future studies.  I find it stressful and not restful.  However when I purchase curriculum, I feel like our homeschool becomes less authentic to life and more a series of things to do to be checked off.  On the other hand, choosing copywork and dictation for each child each day based on what they are currently reading is a lot of work.  Writing with Ease is easier. . .

 

I am clearly confused.

[KeriJ]

Yes. What is the difference? I think very little.

 

I'd like a checklist also!

 

I wasn't using all those resources you listed for each book. That makes me tired just thinking about it. My plan is always read and then narrate. Many of those extras just get between the child and the book. I actually don't really follow amblesideonline. I choose my own books. I think there is a fine balance between keeping things simple, keeping things true to the CM method, and making sure our children can do all the skills necessary for life and future studies. I find it stressful and not restful. However when I purchase curriculum, I feel like our homeschool becomes less authentic to life and more a series of things to do to be checked off. On the other hand, choosing copywork and dictation for each child each day based on what they are currently reading is a lot of work. Writing with Ease is easier. . .

 

I am clearly confused.

Well, you're not alone.😊 But I realized I was making it too hard trying to be authentic. For me, following a less than perfect plan which frees up my time for other things is worth it to me. The key for me is to find something simple only for the subjects that are most important to me. Something with just enough structure that I can add to it or not. I'm ok winging the rest.

[quietchapel]

Yes. What is the difference? I think very little.

 

I'd like a checklist also!

 

I wasn't using all those resources you listed for each book. That makes me tired just thinking about it. My plan is always read and then narrate. Many of those extras just get between the child and the book. I actually don't really follow amblesideonline. I choose my own books. I think there is a fine balance between keeping things simple, keeping things true to the CM method, and making sure our children can do all the skills necessary for life and future studies. I find it stressful and not restful. However when I purchase curriculum, I feel like our homeschool becomes less authentic to life and more a series of things to do to be checked off. On the other hand, choosing copywork and dictation for each child each day based on what they are currently reading is a lot of work. Writing with Ease is easier. . .

 

I am clearly confused.

I love your post, Lorisuewho! My experience has been the same. I would love to simply read and narrate, but my kids do not do well with only that approach. My daughter, in particular, becomes increasingly lazy/apathetic. She totally loses her 'spark'. She LOVES taking tests, too!

 

I understand what you mean about homeschooling becoming less authentic to life with curricula. On the other hand, from a few other forums I read on, I have noticed that when families start with a prepared program, there is often a sense of it being rigid and less authentic. But, after time- a year or two, maybe- the program is authentic to their homeschool because they've learned how to 'live with it', so to speak- to make the experience of it their own.

 

Maybe I just need to use something for more than a year!

 

I don't know that you are confused. I think homeschooling is inherently confusing! Just my opinion.

[quietchapel]

Well, you're not alone.😊 But I realized I was making it too hard trying to be authentic. For me, following a less than perfect plan which frees up my time for other things is worth it to me. The key for me is to find something simple only for the subjects that are most important to me. Something with just enough structure that I can add to it or not. I'm ok winging the rest.

What have you found that provides this?

[KeriJ]

This is where perspectives will differ, but R&S and WWS, done slowly, often orally, and used later than recommended have worked the best for me. Using CM methods first, then adding resources such as those to fine tune.

 

However, since I have added more kids to the mix, we are trying Cottage Press for this year.

[Kfamily]

I'm not sure if anyone here would be interested in these, but I use The Dictation Spelling Book for our dictation. I would love to set the time aside to pull our own dictation from our books, but I've yet to accomplish that. :) There are two levels, but you really should not start the first level until mid-upper elementary, depending on the skills of your student. The second level would follow the first. I like the books because the book is ready-to-go but yet uses classic literature and poetry and increases with difficulty over the course of the sequence. My younger daughter is just finishing up the first book and will be starting the second one in the fall.

 

 

The Dictation Spelling Book I

The Dictation Spelling Book II

 

 

Also, I do not choose the copywork that my children use past 3rd/4th grade. I switch them to a copybook and let them choose their selections on their own. I give them a composition book with the top half of the book blank and the bottom half lined. I let them choose from any of their school books to copy a sentence or two (and more as they progress) from any of them. I keep an eye over their selections so that they choose from a variety of books (geography, different books for reading and literature, poetry, history, science, etc.) and I require them to make at least 2-3 entries per week, depending on the child's skill needs. Once they've copied their selection, they can then illustrate it.

 

Switching to the above books for dictation and letting my children choose their copywork when they reach mid-elementary level or so frees me from having to labor over both of these lessons. We also use an assignment sheet at about this level, giving my children assignments that can be worked on if I'm working with their sibling at the moment. This keeps everyone working productively, and not on "busy" work, throughout each day.

Edited July 8, 2016 by Kfamily

[....]

This is something that always confuses me. If someone is going to use a detailed rubric, then why not use a curriculum that covers the same things?

 

That rubric she posted was a guideline to help the kids' narrations cover ideas at a deeper level - not just a short summary of what they read - and I don't feel like it was a grading tool.  We've done Writing with Skill and there's a big difference between having the kids read the lesson in the workbook and follow the directions for a specific form of writing and covering a specific topic versus letting them just write about their reading.  

 

Also, not all kids do well with things broken down with steps.  Some of them are more big-picture thinkers.  My kids do better with just ideas/guidelines ("Look, here are some examples of topics you could talk about") than they do a step-by-step explanation. 

[....]

My guess is that she was advocating letting the students' writing develop according to their voice and ideas through narration rather than via a form. 

 

I think so, too.

[lorisuewho]

I'm not sure if anyone here would be interested in these, but I use The Dictation Spelling Book for our dictation. I would love to set the time aside to pull our own dictation from our books, but I've yet to accomplish that. :) There are two levels, but you really should not start the first level until mid-upper elementary, depending on the skills of your student. The second level would follow the first. I like the books because the book is ready-to-go but yet uses classic literature and poetry and increases with difficulty over the course of the sequence. My younger daughter is just finishing up the first book and will be starting the second one in the fall.

 

 

The Dictation Spelling Book I

The Dictation Spelling Book II

 

 

Also, I do not choose the copywork that my children use past 3rd/4th grade. I switch them to a copybook and let them choose their selections on their own. I give them a composition book with the top half of the book blank and the bottom half lined. I let them choose from any of their school books to copy a sentence or two (and more as they progress) from any of them. I keep an eye over their selections so that they choose from a variety of books (geography, different books for reading and literature, poetry, history, science, etc.) and I require them to make at least 2-3 entries per week, depending on the child's skill needs. Once they've copied their selection, they can then illustrate it.

 

Switching to the above books for dictation and letting my children choose their copywork when they reach mid-elementary level or so frees me from having to labor over both of these lessons. We also use an assignment sheet at about this level, giving my children assignments that can be worked on if I'm working with their sibling at the moment. This keeps everyone working productively, and not on "busy" work, throughout each day.

Thank you for the explanation of how you handle dictation and copywork.  That sounds very do-able!  We have been using dictation day by day.  I'm going to take a close look to see how the dictation books you linked compare. 

 

That rubric she posted was a guideline to help the kids' narrations cover ideas at a deeper level - not just a short summary of what they read - and I don't feel like it was a grading tool.  We've done Writing with Skill and there's a big difference between having the kids read the lesson in the workbook and follow the directions for a specific form of writing and covering a specific topic versus letting them just write about their reading.  

 

Also, not all kids do well with things broken down with steps.  Some of them are more big-picture thinkers.  My kids do better with just ideas/guidelines ("Look, here are some examples of topics you could talk about") than they do a step-by-step explanation. 

I'd like to see the rubric.  Sounds interesting.

[quietchapel]

That rubric she posted was a guideline to help the kids' narrations cover ideas at a deeper level - not just a short summary of what they read - and I don't feel like it was a grading tool. We've done Writing with Skill and there's a big difference between having the kids read the lesson in the workbook and follow the directions for a specific form of writing and covering a specific topic versus letting them just write about their reading.

 

Also, not all kids do well with things broken down with steps. Some of them are more big-picture thinkers. My kids do better with just ideas/guidelines ("Look, here are some examples of topics you could talk about") than they do a step-by-step explanation.

If you don't mind sharing, how was your experience with WWS ?

[KeriJ]

That rubric she posted was a guideline to help the kids' narrations cover ideas at a deeper level - not just a short summary of what they read - and I don't feel like it was a grading tool. We've done Writing with Skill and there's a big difference between having the kids read the lesson in the workbook and follow the directions for a specific form of writing and covering a specific topic versus letting them just write about their reading.

 

Also, not all kids do well with things broken down with steps. Some of them are more big-picture thinkers. My kids do better with just ideas/guidelines ("Look, here are some examples of topics you could talk about") than they do a step-by-step explanation.

But we used WWS for the purpose of applying the lessons to our reading. We started with full page CM narrations in history, etc. Then we did WWS lessons while continuing narrations in other subjects. I started seeing much improvements in dd's writing. For me, WWS was a tool towards better narrations. (and we didn't use it until the second half of 7th grade)

[SFossum]

I'm so glad you posted this question!  I've been trying to wrap my brain around this for the past couple of weeks.  If you are on FB, here is a recently created group for Charlotte Mason High Schoolers:  https://www.facebook.com/groups/273906839607975/

[....]

I'm so glad you posted this question!  I've been trying to wrap my brain around this for the past couple of weeks.  If you are on FB, here is a recently created group for Charlotte Mason High Schoolers:  https://www.facebook.com/groups/273906839607975/

 

Wow, I really wish I was on Facebook!  I could use some CM support for high school.  It is confusing!

 

 

But we used WWS for the purpose of applying the lessons to our reading. We started with full page CM narrations in history, etc. Then we did WWS lessons while continuing narrations in other subjects. I started seeing much improvements in dd's writing. For me, WWS was a tool towards better narrations. (and we didn't use it until the second half of 7th grade)

 

If WWS works for your kids, use it!  It's a great writing program.  I have a lot of respect for SWB.  She knows her stuff!  Ultimately, we have to do what works best with our kids.

 

 

If you don't mind sharing, how was your experience with WWS ?

 

 

 

So, the first time we tried WWS, we had to stop halfway through and just put it back on the shelf.  It was overwhelming for my daughter.  We waited until 7th grade and tried again.  Much better.  They did WWS 1 and 2.  We didn't make it to WWS3.  It is a very SOLID program.  My kids did OK with it...but they found it tedious.  They also didn't enjoy it.  Neither of them like things that are laid out with lots of step-by-step instructions and details.  They would rather get a big picture and take off on their own.  Both of them write better when they just write (without a program).  For example, my daughter read Firebringer about a year ago.  I told her to just write me an essay about it (when she finished the book).  I gave no rules or guidelines at all.  She wrote a terrific multi-page essay about a prophecy that appears in the story, how the prophecy unfolds throughout the story and how it affects the characters.  I mean, it was awesome!  Not that writing long essays is CM...but just an example that my older two do better when they are given more freedom.  They would actually be great candidates for unschooling (we thought about unschooling high school and chickened out - LOL).  

 

I don't plan on using a writing program for high school.  I'm going to just try having them weekly write 2-3 narrations or mini-response essays after they do their reading.  Then, we are going to try to write a research paper at least once a year during high school.   Just so I can walk them through it for college and they are familiar with stuff like format, etc.  TWTM has a great section in one of the Rhetoric chapters about how to write a research paper.

 

Teaching writing is difficult!   

[lorisuewho]

 

 

 

The Dictation Spelling Book I

The Dictation Spelling Book II

 

 

 

Is there a way to download and print out these books?  They look great!

[Kfamily]

Is there a way to download and print out these books?  They look great!

 

I save the pdf of it and then print it from my pc. We really like them too! :)

[Ellie]

This is something that always confuses me. If someone is going to use a detailed rubric, then why not use a curriculum that covers the same things?

 

Because maybe the "curriculum" interferes with the writer's personal style or voice, or includes things that could be twaddle, such as random rules for how many sentences in a paragraph or the number of mandatory rough drafts, or things like five-paragraph essays which do not exist in the real world.

[LindaOz]

I heard a podcast recently where the host was interviewing Sonya Schaeffer from SCM and she was speaking about how to use CM methods of writing to develop other forms of writing beyond just the narrative form. It was really good and enlightening.

 

Maybe search the SCM site and see if she has a podcast on upper writing. She's very informative.

[lorisuewho]

I heard a podcast recently where the host was interviewing Sonya Schaeffer from SCM and she was speaking about how to use CM methods of writing to develop other forms of writing beyond just the narrative form. It was really good and enlightening.

 

Maybe search the SCM site and see if she has a podcast on upper writing. She's very informative.

Do you think it was the one on the Your Morning Basket podcast? I've been googling and that looks like it could be it.

[LindaOz]

Do you think it was the one on the Your Morning Basket podcast? I've been googling and that looks like it could be it.

 

 

Yes. That was it!!!!

[KeriJ]

Because maybe the "curriculum" interferes with the writer's personal style or voice, or includes things that could be twaddle, such as random rules for how many sentences in a paragraph or the number of mandatory rough drafts, or things like five-paragraph essays which do not exist in the real world.

I do agree that most curricula do that. I guess I was just hoping there was something out there that was a happy medium between that and no instruction at all.

[Soror]

I'm not sure if anyone here would be interested in these, but I use The Dictation Spelling Book for our dictation. I would love to set the time aside to pull our own dictation from our books, but I've yet to accomplish that. :) There are two levels, but you really should not start the first level until mid-upper elementary, depending on the skills of your student. The second level would follow the first. I like the books because the book is ready-to-go but yet uses classic literature and poetry and increases with difficulty over the course of the sequence. My younger daughter is just finishing up the first book and will be starting the second one in the fall.

 

 

The Dictation Spelling Book I

The Dictation Spelling Book II

 

 

Also, I do not choose the copywork that my children use past 3rd/4th grade. I switch them to a copybook and let them choose their selections on their own. I give them a composition book with the top half of the book blank and the bottom half lined. I let them choose from any of their school books to copy a sentence or two (and more as they progress) from any of them. I keep an eye over their selections so that they choose from a variety of books (geography, different books for reading and literature, poetry, history, science, etc.) and I require them to make at least 2-3 entries per week, depending on the child's skill needs. Once they've copied their selection, they can then illustrate it.

 

Switching to the above books for dictation and letting my children choose their copywork when they reach mid-elementary level or so frees me from having to labor over both of these lessons. We also use an assignment sheet at about this level, giving my children assignments that can be worked on if I'm working with their sibling at the moment. This keeps everyone working productively, and not on "busy" work, throughout each day.

I just started the same w/ copywork this year for my 4th grader. I like the dictation book, I'll have to consider that next year for her.

[KeriJ]

We used Dictation Day by Day this year. I haven't been able to see The Dictation Spelling Book clearly on my phone since we're out of town. Is someone able to compare the two?

[quietchapel]

I read through most of both dictation books listed, and I think I will plan to use them. Thanks so much for sharing how you do copywork. I may go that route! Money is tighter this year than usual, so I am trying to use things I have while also lightening my own workload. I think the copywork and dictation suggestions can help me do just that!

[Soror]

We used Dictation Day by Day this year. I haven't been able to see The Dictation Spelling Book clearly on my phone since we're out of town. Is someone able to compare the two?

A quick look- Dictation Day by Day starts out at a lower level and The Dictation Spelling Book uses real (good)literature for all of the selections. Dictation Day by Day also has key words pulled out of each passage, whereas w/ DSP it just has the passages one after another, 184 total.

 

This is the first passage in The Dictation Spelling book (couldn't get it to copy and paste but I think I got it right :) ) 

1. The flax was in full bloom. It had pretty little blue flowers, as delicate as the wings of the moth. The sun shone, and the showers watered it, and this was just as good for the flax as it was for little children to be washed and kissed by their mothers.

Hans Anderson

Edited July 9, 2016 by soror

[quietchapel]

A quick look- Dictation Day by Day starts out at a lower level and The Dictation Spelling Book uses real (good)literature for all of the selections. Dictation Day by Day also has key words pulled out of each passage, whereas w/ DSP it just has the passages one after another, 187 total.

We've used Dictation Day by Day, and had much success. I prefer the passages in The Dictation Spelling Book for grades 5 and up.

[Soror]

We've used Dictation Day by Day, and had much success. I prefer the passages in The Dictation Spelling Book for grades 5 and up.

Thank, I was thinking next year in 5th might be good for my oldest daughter, she wouldn't be ready for it this year but would be happy to switch from R&S for her.

[Kfamily]

The preface to The Dictation Spelling Book I states this:

 

"The two books constituting the series are intended to cover the spelling work of four or five years, beginning with the fourth year."

 

I think it can be started around 4th/5th  grade, but this would depend on the readiness of each child individually, and can take you through 8th or 9th grade. :)

Edited July 9, 2016 by Kfamily

[lorisuewho]

How many times a week are you doing dictation?  I have been using dictation day by day for years and do it every school day, but now that the passages are getting longer (and I'm considering The Dictation Book instead), I'm thinking of dropping it down to just a couple of times a week. 

[lorisuewho]

I heard a podcast recently where the host was interviewing Sonya Schaeffer from SCM and she was speaking about how to use CM methods of writing to develop other forms of writing beyond just the narrative form. It was really good and enlightening.

 

Maybe search the SCM site and see if she has a podcast on upper writing. She's very informative.

 

That podcast episode was lovely.  I'm looking forward to exploring more of the Morning Basket podcasts.  I had also found A Delectable Education podcast to be wonderful on delving into the Charlotte Mason method.

[Soror]

The preface to The Dictation Spelling Book I states this:

 

"The two books constituting the series are intended to cover the spelling work of four or five years, beginning with the fourth year."

 

I think it can be started around 4th/5th  grade, but this would depend on the readiness of each child individually, and can take you through 8th or 9th grade. :)

Looking at the Dictation Spelling Book it seems a passage a week would be a good pace. How do you do it?

[quietchapel]

Thank, I was thinking next year in 5th might be good for my oldest daughter, she wouldn't be ready for it this year but would be happy to switch from R&S for her.

We are using R&S spelling, but I suspect using both resources would end up being redundant. I am happy to simplify if I can cover spelling and dictation successfully with one resource!

[quietchapel]

How many times a week are you doing dictation? I have been using dictation day by day for years and do it every school day, but now that the passages are getting longer (and I'm considering The Dictation Book instead), I'm thinking of dropping it down to just a couple of times a week.

We only do dictation once a week, but that is because we also use R&S spelling and English, though English at a very slow pace.

 

I intend to do dictation through high school, so I think the Spelling Dictation books will cover grades 5-12 at a rate of one passage a week. I haven't done the math, though!🤔

I am working on my overall scope and sequence for LA this morning, so hopefully I'll have time to calculate later.

[lorisuewho]

At the fifth grade level, I'm just not sure that doing dictation once or twice a week is enough spelling.  However, maybe combined with doing copywork it is! 

[Kfamily]

Looking at the Dictation Spelling Book it seems a passage a week would be a good pace. How do you do it?

 

My goal is to accomplish dictation 2x per week, but some weeks we only accomplished this once. :)

 

I usually tried to balance this with handwriting (both of my girls used the Italics handwriting series) and copybook entries, which are also 2-3 times per week. This along with narrations, other languages and English grammar usually gave us enough in language arts. Also, by year 6 I switched the girls from a copybook to a more traditional commonplace book.

 

So for us it looks like this:

 

Years K-2: copywork (selected by me and I used programs like StartWrite to set it up in Italics font), handwriting and an introduction to dictation in Year 2

Years 3-5: copybook, handwriting and dictation 2x per week

Years 6+:  commonplace book (in neat handwriting...utilizing their Italics....ideally... :)), dictation 2x per week

 

My older daughter's handwriting fell off...lol...but my younger one seems more likely to keep it...so outcomes may vary!! :) LOL!

Edited July 9, 2016 by Kfamily