Say it isn't So! Cop Writes about Extent of Hook-Up Culture on Campus

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Straw man Fallacy.  No one argues that she should.

 

But it is true that undertaking certain actions do increase your potential of becoming a victim, and drinking is one of several of those actions.

 

Some have argued that drinking makes the woman partly to blame.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Not true. Twenty-five states and D.C. do not use the word "rape" at all in their criminal statutes — even forcible PIV is categorized as sexual assault. And in states that do use the word rape, the legal definition varies widely. In CA, only forcible PIV counts as rape — anal or oral rape, or penetration with anything other than a penis is sexual assault, not rape. In some states "unlawful sexual penetration" is the legal definition of rape — that is what Brock Turner was convicted of.

 

The alleged cop who wrote the anonymous letter specifically says he is referring to the hundreds of cases where he "responded to the hospital to investigate a report of sexual assault." Do women normally go to the Emergency Room to report that some guy groped them or kissed them? He says, explicitly, that of the hundreds of times he went to the hospital to investigate a report of rape, fewer than 10 — out of hundreds— were actual "rape-rapes," and the rest were the result of girls drinking: "Period. Full stop." So 90+% of women who go to the hospital to report they were raped are just drunk girls who really have no memory of whether they consented or not? 

 

The statistics that I cited, from the 2015 AAU study, refer to "sexual penetration (oral, anal or vaginal) by force or incapacitation" — that is the FBI's definition of rape. According to that definition, 1 in 10 female undergraduates report having been raped. Not groped or kissed or manhandled against their will. Not sexually penetrated because they were "coerced" or did not give "affirmative consent." Actually, sexually penetrated, against their will, either by force or when they were unconscious or too incapacitated to resist. More than half of those rapes — 1 in 20 women — say they were raped by force.

 

And yet, for some bizarre reason, in this "cop's" college town, the only women who go to the ER are the ones where the girl doesn't remember anything and isn't even sure she was raped?

 

I am sure after dealing with a "cop" like this one they would be informed in no uncertain terms that they had not been raped.

[TianXiaXueXiao]

I have seen no evidence that a majority of sexual assaults are a result of binge drinking.  It is a stretch to blame the majority on alcohol, as having a drink /= binge drinking or alcohol being the cause.  The focus on "hook up" culture goes with the claim that many sexual assault reports are due to "regret", for which again there is no evidence of that being true.

 

In addition, even if a woman is drinking, she shouldn't be raped.

 

No one is saying that anyone should be raped when they are drinking. Nobody has made that statement on this thread. Not once.

 

I believe the officer, like many, has seen a lot of evidence that links alcohol consumption to sexual assaults. His figures may not be exact, but he is illustrating accounts from his own experience on the force, he is not coming out as a department of justice spokesperson.

 

Consider this information that was taken from a USA Today article, "Police, experts: Alcohol most common in sexual assaults"

 

 

 

Scientific process

Data from a 2007 study for the National Institute of Justice on drug-facilitated, incapacitated and forcible rape indicate that only a small fraction (0.6 percent) of female undergraduate students who were sexually assaulted when they were incapacitated were certain they had been victims of drug-facilitated sexual assault.

Another 1.7 percent suspected they were incapacitated after having been given a drug without their knowledge.

That same study, however, indicated that the vast majority of incapacitated sexual assault victims (89 percent) reported drinking alcohol and being drunk (82 percent) before their victimization.

"When it comes to date rape drugs, in the vast majority of the cases, once we start talking to an officer or we look at the case, it's going to be alcohol," Lyttle said. "You may have things that exacerbate that, but we really don't have a smoking gun."

[Crimson Wife]

"Pre-gaming" is not new. In fact, it was one of the things done to reduce the risks of drinking at a frat house because we knew that any alcohol consumed with our sorority sisters was not spiked with any kind of drugs by some creep.

 

Fooling around with guys that were mere acquaintances was not uncommon, though it typically was with classmates rather than complete strangers. I certainly never engaged in that kind of behavior since I had a serious boyfriend, but plenty of girls did.

 

Ambien did not exist and I knew people who specifically did not drink because they were on medications that couldn't be mixed with alcohol. People who take medications need to heed their doctor's advice.

[Greta]

 

Consider this information that was taken from a USA Today article, "Police, experts: Alcohol most common in sexual assaults"

 

 

This article is saying that when a rape victim was incapacitated by a drug, it is most likely that the drug was alcohol.  It's not saying that most rape victims were consuming alcohol.  That's a very different claim from the one the cop in the original article was making.  Most rape victims are overcome by brute force, not by drugs (including alcohol).

[Corraleno]

No one is saying that anyone should be raped when they are drinking. Nobody has made that statement on this thread. Not once.

 

I believe the officer, like many, has seen a lot of evidence that links alcohol consumption to sexual assaults. His figures may not be exact, but he is illustrating accounts from his own experience on the force, he is not coming out as a department of justice spokesperson.

 

Consider this information that was taken from a USA Today article, "Police, experts: Alcohol most common in sexual assaults"

 

Did you actually read that article? The part you quoted says that 82% of victims who were raped by incapacitation were drunk. In other words, of the victims who said they were assaulted while incapacitated, alcohol was the cause of incapacitation more often than drugs. Duh.

 

The article also says:

 

"The study for the National Institute of Justice found that only 16 percent of all rapes were reported to law enforcement. Notably, victims of drug-facilitated or incapacitated rape were somewhat less likely to report to the authorities than victims of forcible rape, the study found.

 

 

So, according to the AAU study, more than half of college rape victims are raped by force, not incapacitation. According to this NIJ study, women who are raped by incapacitation are less likely to report than those raped by force.

 

And yet, this cop claims that ""90+%" of rape reports, from victims who go to the hospital, involve women who voluntarily got drunk and hooked up.

 

Do you see why this is not adding up?

[Greta]

According to this NIJ study, women who are raped by incapacitation are less likely to report than those raped by force.

 

And yet, this cop claims that ""90+%" of rape reports, from victims who go to the hospital, involve women who voluntarily got drunk and hooked up.

 

Do you see why this is not adding up?

 

I somehow missed this very important point.  Thank you!

[Mrs. Tharp]

Huh. When I read opinion pieces like these, I take any figures quoted with a grain of salt. This was just one cop's experience and opinions. He obviously worked in a college town and saw a disproportionate number of cases like this. In college I saw men and women behave the way he describes, and alcohol was always involved. Not saying the figures in the article are wrong, just saying that his experience might still be valid but not mirror national figures. He is not saying he never saw cases of actual rape and of necessity, he paints with a pretty broad brush.  He doesn't have a spreadsheet in front of him with every case he ever worked, he is going from memory.

 

I would tend to think that his viewpoint is a very practical, cynical one; that he is viewing these cases in terms of whether or not they can be prosecuted, and how, so often, there is just not the evidence to prosecute. He was not looking at it from a victim's standpoint, he was trying to figure out if there was enough evidence to demonstrate that a crime was committed. Too often (at least in his experience), there just wasn't and alcohol was part of the reason. That, understandably, is frustrating. So he is coming across as a jerk, like a lot of cops do.  

 

That said, I do think that police do blame the victim waaaaay too often and need better training. That is a huge issue. 

[Bluegoat]

Yeah, but that's kind of the point, isn't it?  Those kinds of experiences don't often get labelled as rape, and even less often reported as rape.  Very, very rarely, and yet he's making it sound like it's the norm, the most common type of rape that get's reported.  That's why I'm saying that this "article" is nothing but a misogynistic stereotype.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

I know that my sampling of the population is biased, but my sampling more closely aligns with what the research shows.  He doesn't seem to realize that his sampling is biased (assuming it's not completely imaginary), so he makes ridiculous claims like eliminate binge drinking and "you would eliminate practically all reported sexual assaults in this country. Eighty percent of them at least would disappear because you would eliminate the victim side of the crime triangle."  That's a load of crap.  

 

I don't think he really is talking about rapes that are officially reported though.  I think he's talking about all the instances he comes across where someone thinks there might have been sexual  assault, before they ever get so far as being reported.

 

I also don't think he is trying to be exact about numbers, or put them in line with national stats, or anything like that. He's looking to give a sense of his experience.

 

And really - we know darn well most assaults are never able to come to trial, or result in charges, or even get as far as anyone really considering charges, for just the reason he says - it isn't possible to make a sufficient case. 

 

I've heard lawyers and judges for sex assault cases make similar complaints - that what is really holding back on successful prosecutions in many cases is that very often, there is some level of incapacitation among both the victim and any witnesses, so their testimony is not considered reliable.  And that is cases that get that far.

 

And as someone said, drugs are a problem related to other kinds of crime as well.  I was molested as a kid by an alcoholic, that is a really common scenario, it just changes people's behaviors.  I doubt it would have happened if that man's inhibitions weren't being lowered by being drunk on a regular basis.  Most little kids aren't doing drugs or drinking, so that doesn't tend to be part of the equation in those situations, but in other kinds of crimes users are often more likely to be victims as well as perpetrators.

 

I really find this idea that some people seem to have (not you, Greta) that anyone who thinks differently than they do about this is purposefully muddying the waters for some nefarious purpose of their own really, really, offensive and even bizarre.  That is a pretty superior and nasty view of humanity.

[Corraleno]

I don't think he really is talking about rapes that are officially reported though.  I think he's talking about all the instances he comes across where someone thinks there might have been sexual  assault, before they ever get so far as being reported.

 

If the rape wasn't reported to the police, how could the police investigate it?  :confused1:

 

He explicitly refers to the hundreds of cases where he was called to the hospital "to investigate a report of a sexual assault." He says that "90+% of reported sexual assaults" are due to alcohol. He says that if women would just stop getting drunk and sleeping around, that would "eliminate practically all reported sexual assaults."

 

He could not possibly say this more clearly: "practically all" of the sexual assaults that are reported to the police involve women who purposely got drunk and "hooked up." Practically. all. of. them. 

 

His "statistics" are contradicted by every study on sexual assault ever produced. He admits he is blaming the victims. He admits that he holds rape victims to a higher standard than victims of other crimes, and that he doesn't like to "file charges" against alleged rapists (which is not his job anyway), because then everyone will know the guy was arrested for rape. He says he could write an equally long email about all the women who file false charges out of "spite, jealousy, or because of mental problems." He claims that huge numbers of women are "roofieing themselves" by purposely taking Ambien before they go drinking. I've searched all over the internet looking for any evidence that this is even a "thing," because it makes no sense whatsoever, and I cannot find anything that corroborates what he says.

 

But we should believe that he's really a cop, and his claims are really true, despite the fact that he has provided no evidence whatsoever — not even his name or town — because...? Because people have seen girls get drunk and hook up? And people know that those girls later filed police reports saying they were raped, while all the girls that were raped by force never filed reports?

[TianXiaXueXiao]

Did you actually read that article? The part you quoted says that 82% of victims who were raped by incapacitation were drunk. In other words, of the victims who said they were assaulted while incapacitated, alcohol was the cause of incapacitation more often than drugs. Duh.

 

The article also says:

 

 

 

So, according to the AAU study, more than half of college rape victims are raped by force, not incapacitation. According to this NIJ study, women who are raped by incapacitation are less likely to report than those raped by force.

 

And yet, this cop claims that ""90+%" of rape reports, from victims who go to the hospital, involve women who voluntarily got drunk and hooked up.

 

Do you see why this is not adding up?

I posted the USA Today article to provide an alternative view on how closely related alcohol and sexual assaults are. Yes the topic is about incapacitated adults and sexual assault which is what the cop in the opinion piece posted by the OP is addressing. There's tons of evidence that supports the correlation between excessive (as in too much) alcohol consumption and sexual assault. If you are dissatisfied by the article I shared I could share 10 more, but you can Google just as well as I can.

[Corraleno]

I posted the USA Today article to provide an alternative view on how closely related alcohol and sexual assaults are. Yes the topic is about incapacitated adults and sexual assault which is what the cop in the opinion piece posted by the OP is addressing. There's tons of evidence that supports the correlation between excessive (as in too much) alcohol consumption and sexual assault. If you are dissatisfied by the article I shared I could share 10 more, but you can Google just as well as I can.

 

:confused1:  :confused1:  :confused1:

 

No one — not one person — has claimed that sexual assaults never involve alcohol. Everyone agrees that some percentage of sexual assaults involve alcohol. How is citing a study that shows that most incapacitated rape victims were incapacitated by alcohol rather than drugs providing an "alternative view" to anything that was said in this thread??? 

 

This is logically flawed:

I've seen college students get drunk and hook up.

Some sexual assaults involve alcohol.

Therefore, 90% of college sexual assaults are probably the result of girls getting drunk.

 

This is also flawed:

A massive study by the Association of American Universities, covering 150,000 students on 27 campuses, showed that less than half of rape victims are raped because they were incapacitated by drugs or alcohol.

Some random anonymous guy on the internet claims that 90+% of rapes are the result of girls getting drunk.

I've seen girls getting drunk, but I've never seen a girl being raped by force, therefore the random anonymous guy is probably right,

[TianXiaXueXiao]

:confused1: :confused1: :confused1:

 

No one — not one person — has claimed that sexual assaults never involve alcohol. Everyone agrees that some percentage of sexual assaults involve alcohol. How is citing a study that shows that most incapacitated rape victims were incapacitated by alcohol rather than drugs providing an "alternative view" to anything that was said in this thread???

 

This is logically flawed:

I've seen college students get drunk and hook up.

Some sexual assaults involve alcohol.

Therefore, 90% of college sexual assaults are probably the result of girls getting drunk.

 

This is also flawed:

A massive study by the Association of American Universities, covering 150,000 students on 27 campuses, showed that less than half of rape victims are raped because they were incapacitated by drugs or alcohol.

Some random anonymous guy on the internet claims that 90+% of rapes are the result of girls getting drunk.

I've seen girls getting drunk, but I've never seen a girl being raped by force, therefore the random anonymous guy is probably right,

The claim was made that there was no evidence of a majority of sexual assaults being linked to alcohol. There is plenty. I was using the article to illustrate that the cop isn't the only one talking about the strong connection between alcohol consumption and sexual assault. There are plenty of others making similar statements as the cop. Please consider the following:

 

"Research suggests that about 40% of college students binge drink (i.e., consuming 5 or more drinks in a short amount of time) and that the vast majority of campus sexual assaults are fueled by alcohol...

 

...If students could only limit themselves to no more than 1 or 2 servings of alcohol per day or per social event following Center for Disease Prevention (CDC) guidelines we would be sure to see incidents of sexual assault on campus drop dramatically." http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/8668364.html

 

And then this:

 

"Findings from this report include:

 

In one study, one in 20 (4.7%) women reported being raped in college since the beginning of the year – a period of approximately 7 months – and nearly three quarters of those rapes (72%) happened with the victims were so intoxicated they were unable to consent or refuse.One study found that students living in sorority houses (3 times at risk) and on-campus dormitories (1.4 times at risk) were more likely to be raped than students living off-campus.Women from colleges with medium and high binge-drinking rates had more than a 1.5-fold increased chance of being raped while intoxicated than those from schools with low binge-drinking rates. Women who had practiced binge-drinking in high school had an increased likelihood of rape while intoxicated." http://www.nsvrc.org/saam/campus-resource-list

 

Why is there so much denial going on here? Is it preferable that college women and men continue to drink dangerous amounts of alcohol and be met with the horrors that can result from incapacitation and inebriation? It seems the better alternative is to educate people about responsible drinking rather than deny there is a problem. It doesn't mean the victim is being blamed.

 

While people still die in car accidents each year, the numbers have decreased dramatically with the enforcement of seat belt laws. Educating drivers about the dangers of driving without a seat belt isn't victim blaming anymore than warning students about the perils of binge drinking is.

[Bluegoat]

If the rape wasn't reported to the police, how could the police investigate it?  :confused1:

 

He explicitly refers to the hundreds of cases where he was called to the hospital "to investigate a report of a sexual assault." He says that "90+% of reported sexual assaults" are due to alcohol. He says that if women would just stop getting drunk and sleeping around, that would "eliminate practically all reported sexual assaults."

 

He could not possibly say this more clearly: "practically all" of the sexual assaults that are reported to the police involve women who purposely got drunk and "hooked up." Practically. all. of. them. 

 

His "statistics" are contradicted by every study on sexual assault ever produced. He admits he is blaming the victims. He admits that he holds rape victims to a higher standard than victims of other crimes, and that he doesn't like to "file charges" against alleged rapists (which is not his job anyway), because then everyone will know the guy was arrested for rape. He says he could write an equally long email about all the women who file false charges out of "spite, jealousy, or because of mental problems." He claims that huge numbers of women are "roofieing themselves" by purposely taking Ambien before they go drinking. I've searched all over the internet looking for any evidence that this is even a "thing," because it makes no sense whatsoever, and I cannot find anything that corroborates what he says.

 

But we should believe that he's really a cop, and his claims are really true, despite the fact that he has provided no evidence whatsoever — not even his name or town — because...? Because people have seen girls get drunk and hook up? And people know that those girls later filed police reports saying they were raped, while all the girls that were raped by force never filed reports?

 

Because what the police go talk about with people doesn't always necessarily get counted as reported in some official sense.  The word "reported" seems to be used both in a colloquial and a more specific kind of way.  One is just that somehow the police were made aware of something that they need to look into.  The other is that a specific type of crime is recorded somewhere, these days it seems usually in a computer database,  as a reported crime.  But the former doesn't always lead to the latter.

 

There is no way I can see to know he's really who he says.  But given that I've heard other complaints by law enforcement, and other people involved in the criminal system, along similar lines, I don't see any particular reason to think he isn't, either.

[poppy]

I don't think he really is talking about rapes that are officially reported though. I think he's talking about all the instances he comes across where someone thinks there might have been sexual assault, before they ever get so far as being reported.

 

I also don't think he is trying to be exact about numbers, or put them in line with national stats, or anything like that. He's looking to give a sense of his experience.

 

And really - we know darn well most assaults are never able to come to trial, or result in charges, or even get as far as anyone really considering charges, for just the reason he says - it isn't possible to make a sufficient case.

 

I've heard lawyers and judges for sex assault cases make similar complaints - that what is really holding back on successful prosecutions in many cases is that very often, there is some level of incapacitation among both the victim and any witnesses, so their testimony is not considered reliable. And that is cases that get that far.

 

And as someone said, drugs are a problem related to other kinds of crime as well. I was molested as a kid by an alcoholic, that is a really common scenario, it just changes people's behaviors. I doubt it would have happened if that man's inhibitions weren't being lowered by being drunk on a regular basis. Most little kids aren't doing drugs or drinking, so that doesn't tend to be part of the equation in those situations, but in other kinds of crimes users are often more likely to be victims as well as perpetrators.

 

I really find this idea that some people seem to have (not you, Greta) that anyone who thinks differently than they do about this is purposefully muddying the waters for some nefarious purpose of their own really, really, offensive and even bizarre. That is a pretty superior and nasty view of humanity.

This whole piece is explicitly about reported rapes. He even has an aside about the many false reports made due to vindictiveness he fields which are separate. Which he knows are false because.... I don't even know.

[poppy]

Because what the police go talk about with people doesn't always necessarily get counted as reported in some official sense. The word "reported" seems to be used both in a colloquial and a more specific kind of way. One is just that somehow the police were made aware of something that they need to look into. The other is that a specific type of crime is recorded somewhere, these days it seems usually in a computer database, as a reported crime. But the former doesn't always lead to the latter.

 

There is no way I can see to know he's really who he says. But given that I've heard other complaints by law enforcement, and other people involved in the criminal system, along similar lines, I don't see any particular reason to think he isn't, either.

Reported in the sense that these are women who chose to enter the police building with the goal of reporting that they've been sexually assaulted. Remember this person is a detective not the dispatcher. He'd be talking to people who got past the first level of 'am I in the right building?' Who request to talk to a detective.

[Greta]

 

 

I also don't think he is trying to be exact about numbers, or put them in line with national stats, or anything like that. He's looking to give a sense of his experience.

 

 

 

Maybe this is what it comes down to.  I gather that you see his article as exaggerating to make a point.  I see it as exaggeration so extreme that it obscures the truth and creates a stereotype.  

 

I am very sorry for what happened to you,  Bluegoat.  :grouphug:

[Greta]

The claim was made that there was no evidence of a majority of sexual assaults being linked to alcohol. There is plenty. I was using the article to illustrate that the cop isn't the only one talking about the strong connection between alcohol consumption and sexual assault. There are plenty of others making similar statements as the cop. Please consider the following:

 

"Research suggests that about 40% of college students binge drink (i.e., consuming 5 or more drinks in a short amount of time) and that the vast majority of campus sexual assaults are fueled by alcohol...

 

...If students could only limit themselves to no more than 1 or 2 servings of alcohol per day or per social event following Center for Disease Prevention (CDC) guidelines we would be sure to see incidents of sexual assault on campus drop dramatically." http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/8668364.html

 

And then this:

 

"Findings from this report include:

 

In one study, one in 20 (4.7%) women reported being raped in college since the beginning of the year – a period of approximately 7 months – and nearly three quarters of those rapes (72%) happened with the victims were so intoxicated they were unable to consent or refuse.One study found that students living in sorority houses (3 times at risk) and on-campus dormitories (1.4 times at risk) were more likely to be raped than students living off-campus.Women from colleges with medium and high binge-drinking rates had more than a 1.5-fold increased chance of being raped while intoxicated than those from schools with low binge-drinking rates. Women who had practiced binge-drinking in high school had an increased likelihood of rape while intoxicated." http://www.nsvrc.org/saam/campus-resource-list

 

Why is there so much denial going on here? Is it preferable that college women and men continue to drink dangerous amounts of alcohol and be met with the horrors that can result from incapacitation and inebriation? It seems the better alternative is to educate people about responsible drinking rather than deny there is a problem. It doesn't mean the victim is being blamed.

 

While people still die in car accidents each year, the numbers have decreased dramatically with the enforcement of seat belt laws. Educating drivers about the dangers of driving without a seat belt isn't victim blaming anymore than warning students about the perils of binge drinking is.

 

 

Thank you for sharing this - these stats are (imo) much more relevant to the conversation.  And if they are accurate, then alcohol plays a much bigger role in campus rape than it does in rape overall.  That's not terribly surprising I suppose, given that campus life is right when so many young adults are attaining legal drinking age, and when so many young adults are away from home for the first time and engaging in risky behaviors like underage drinking.  

 

I don't think anyone is trying to deny that there's any connection between alcohol and sexual assault.  I think the point is, well I'm kind of repeating what I just said to Bluegoat so forgive me, but the point is that the cop's article exaggerates to the point of creating a stereotype.  He paints the typical rape victim as being someone who was drunk and engaging in casual sex, and the next day is just confused, but wasn't really raped.  He admits that he uses a different standard for rape cases than for other crimes,  because his sympathy lies with the accused not the accuser.  He's very dismissive of the experiences of young women, saying that they're really likely to "flake out" within a week.  He also admits that he's been criticized by counselors who help rape victims (gee, I wonder why!).  It all adds up to misogyny.  I think that a fair and thoughtful conversation about alcohol and rape is possible, and necessary.  I don't think this guy is capable of being part of it.

 

 

ETA:  Regarding the part of your post that I bolded, do keep in mind that this evidence is saying that the majority of campus rapes involve alcohol, which is still a different claim from the majority of rapes involve alcohol.  Perhaps part of the disagreement in this thread comes down to miscommunication?

Edited June 17, 2016 by Greta

[Corraleno]

The claim was made that there was no evidence of a majority of sexual assaults being linked to alcohol. There is plenty. I was using the article to illustrate that the cop isn't the only one talking about the strong connection between alcohol consumption and sexual assault. There are plenty of others making similar statements as the cop. Please consider the following:

 

"Research suggests that about 40% of college students binge drink (i.e., consuming 5 or more drinks in a short amount of time) and that the vast majority of campus sexual assaults are fueled by alcohol...

 

...If students could only limit themselves to no more than 1 or 2 servings of alcohol per day or per social event following Center for Disease Prevention (CDC) guidelines we would be sure to see incidents of sexual assault on campus drop dramatically." http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/8668364.html

 

And then this:

 

"Findings from this report include:

 

In one study, one in 20 (4.7%) women reported being raped in college since the beginning of the year – a period of approximately 7 months – and nearly three quarters of those rapes (72%) happened with the victims were so intoxicated they were unable to consent or refuse.One study found that students living in sorority houses (3 times at risk) and on-campus dormitories (1.4 times at risk) were more likely to be raped than students living off-campus.Women from colleges with medium and high binge-drinking rates had more than a 1.5-fold increased chance of being raped while intoxicated than those from schools with low binge-drinking rates. Women who had practiced binge-drinking in high school had an increased likelihood of rape while intoxicated." http://www.nsvrc.org/saam/campus-resource-list

 

Why is there so much denial going on here? Is it preferable that college women and men continue to drink dangerous amounts of alcohol and be met with the horrors that can result from incapacitation and inebriation? It seems the better alternative is to educate people about responsible drinking rather than deny there is a problem. It doesn't mean the victim is being blamed.

 

While people still die in car accidents each year, the numbers have decreased dramatically with the enforcement of seat belt laws. Educating drivers about the dangers of driving without a seat belt isn't victim blaming anymore than warning students about the perils of binge drinking is.

 

I read the study you quoted. That study also lists statistics from previous studies: Koss (1988) reported that 74% of the perpetrators and 55% of the victims of rape in her nationally representative sample of college students had been drinking alcohol. Muehlenhard and Linton (1987) found that alcohol was consumed by 55% of the men and 53% of the women who reported sexual assault on a date. Harrington and Leitenberg (1994) also found that 55% of the sexual assaults reported by college women involved alcohol consumption. (Note: these figures just refer to the consumption of alcohol, not that the victim was incapacitated). The largest and most up to date study done on college sexual assault, the 2015 AAU study, indicates that 49% of undergraduate women who were raped were raped by incapacitation (51% were raped by force).

 

No one is denying that binge-drinking is a problem.

​No one is denying that reducing binge-drinking, among both men and women, would reduce the number of sexual assaults.

No one is suggesting that people should not warn their children (male and female) about the dangers of binge-drinking (which go far beyond the issue of sexual assault).

 

BUT, it is not true that "practically all" rapes involve victims who are drunk. It is dangerous to perpetuate the myth that "practically all" rape victims were drunk, because it suggests that if women don't drink, they won't get raped. It is dangerous to perpetuate the myth that the simple solution to "practically all" college rape is for the victims to stop drinking, because that not only suggests that the victim shares the blame for what happened, it prevents us from seeking real solutions to the problem.

 

And it is absolutely disgusting to suggest that the "typical" rape victim is a girl who purposely "roofies" herself with Ambien before getting totally plastered, has consensual sex with a stranger in a public bathroom, does drugs with a 2nd stranger and has consensual sex with him, and then files a police report saying she thinks she maybe might've kinda sorta been assaulted but she can't remember.

Edited June 17, 2016 by Corraleno

[swimmermom3]

Thank you for sharing this - these stats are (imo) much more relevant to the conversation.  And if they are accurate, then alcohol plays a much bigger role in campus rape than it does in rape overall.  That's not terribly surprising I suppose, given that campus life is right when so many young adults are attaining legal drinking age, and when so many young adults are away from home for the first time and engaging in risky behaviors like underage drinking.  

 

I don't think anyone is trying to deny that there's any connection between alcohol and sexual assault.  I think the point is, well I'm kind of repeating what I just said to Bluegoat so forgive me, but the point is that the cop's article exaggerates to the point of creating a stereotype.  He paints the typical rape victim as being someone who was drunk and engaging in casual sex, and the next day is just confused, but wasn't really raped.  He admits that he uses a different standard for rape cases than for other crimes,  because his sympathy lies with the accused not the accuser.  He's very dismissive of the experiences of young women, saying that they're really likely to "flake out" within a week.  He also admits that he's been criticized by counselors who help rape victims (gee, I wonder why!).  It all adds up to misogyny.  I think that a fair and thoughtful conversation about alcohol and rape is possible, and necessary.  I don't think this guy is capable of being part of it.

 

 

ETA:  Regarding the part of your post that I bolded, do keep in mind that this evidence is saying that the majority of campus rapes involve alcohol, which is still a different claim from the majority of rapes involve alcohol.  Perhaps part of the disagreement in this thread comes down to miscommunication?

 

Part of a fair and thoughtful conversation about alcohol and rape on campus needs to include numbers that pertain to the men. The way numbers are reported and the actions and "observations" of men like this cop and the judge in the Brock Turner case create a certain bias that almost creates the impression that these women sexually assaulted themselves- for a lack of a better way to out it. It's a one-sided equation.  What the cop said came across as "take the woman out of the triangle and there is nothing."   Not true.

 

What if these conversations started out with the following information presented in a recent Rolling Stone article:

 

"As a perpetrator of sexual assault, Turner is unexceptional. Demographically, his is the profile of the teenager most likely to engage in sexual coercion or assault and to use alcohol to facilitate abuse. According to a study released in late 2013, one in 10 people between the ages of 14-21 report having already committed an act of sexual violence; 15% said they used alcohol as a facilitator. Eighty percent of victims were girls. Across race, ethnicity and class, the teenagers with the highest propensity to admit that they'd sexually coerced or assaulted a peer were white boys from higher-income families. In other words, rape is a perk of status."

 

"By going to court instead of just admitting guilt, Turner rolled the dice and lost, but the odds were in distinctly in his favor. College athletes are far less likely than their non-athletic peers to face charges for criminal behavior, but far more likely to engage in sexual and illegal violence. More than 50% of male collegiate athletes report coercing partners. Male athletes are responsible for up to 19% of reported sexual assaults and 37% of intimate partner violence on college campuses, despite being just more than 3% of college populations."

Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/why-did-judge-aaron-perskys-stanford-rape-decision-go-viral-20160616#ixzz4BrUr9UmT

 

Does including this information in a discussion about binge-drinking and the hook-up culture change the nature of that conversation?  This is the side of the "triangle" that "detective" pretends does not exist.

 

[Greta]

Well said, Lisa. Thank you!

[Corraleno]

ETA:  Regarding the part of your post that I bolded, do keep in mind that this evidence is saying that the majority of campus rapes involve alcohol, which is still a different claim from the majority of rapes involve alcohol.  Perhaps part of the disagreement in this thread comes down to miscommunication?

 

I think the only person who is talking about "all rapes" versus college rape, is the alleged cop — which makes his stats even more suspect. (All the stats I've quoted refer specifically to college sexual assault.) 

 

Also, FWIW, according to the National Institute of Health, the rate of binge drinking among college students is only slightly higher than the rate of binge-drinking among people in the same age group who do not attend college (35% vs 31%). 

 

And according to the same study, the percentage of students who binge drink has actually been declining in the last 30 years — from 44% in 1980 to 35% in 2014. Binge drinking is obviously still a major problem (among young people in general, not just college students), but the idea that there is way more binge drinking now than there used to be is not accurate.

[TianXiaXueXiao]

Thank you for sharing this - these stats are (imo) much more relevant to the conversation.  And if they are accurate, then alcohol plays a much bigger role in campus rape than it does in rape overall.  That's not terribly surprising I suppose, given that campus life is right when so many young adults are attaining legal drinking age, and when so many young adults are away from home for the first time and engaging in risky behaviors like underage drinking.  

 

I don't think anyone is trying to deny that there's any connection between alcohol and sexual assault.  I think the point is, well I'm kind of repeating what I just said to Bluegoat so forgive me, but the point is that the cop's article exaggerates to the point of creating a stereotype.  He paints the typical rape victim as being someone who was drunk and engaging in casual sex, and the next day is just confused, but wasn't really raped.  He admits that he uses a different standard for rape cases than for other crimes,  because his sympathy lies with the accused not the accuser.  He's very dismissive of the experiences of young women, saying that they're really likely to "flake out" within a week.  He also admits that he's been criticized by counselors who help rape victims (gee, I wonder why!).  It all adds up to misogyny.  I think that a fair and thoughtful conversation about alcohol and rape is possible, and necessary.  I don't think this guy is capable of being part of it.

 

 

ETA:  Regarding the part of your post that I bolded, do keep in mind that this evidence is saying that the majority of campus rapes involve alcohol, which is still a different claim from the majority of rapes involve alcohol.  Perhaps part of the disagreement in this thread comes down to miscommunication?

 

I was under the impression all along that topic has been binge drinking and hookup culture among college students and how these factors influence and affect sexual assaults among college women. The title of the thread is "Say it isn't So! Cop Writes about Extent of Hook-Up Culture on Campus" and the title of the opinion piece under scrutiny is "Campus Drunk Confidential."

 

I think most people have been sticking to the topic. In my opinion, some people have read into the discussion details and opinions about rape as a whole that are simply not part of the topic which has been specifically geared toward the social norms that exist among adults in institutions of higher learning.

[Greta]

I was under the impression all along that topic has been binge drinking and hookup culture among college students and how these factors influence and affect sexual assaults among college women. The title of the thread is "Say it isn't So! Cop Writes about Extent of Hook-Up Culture on Campus" and the title of the opinion piece under scrutiny is "Campus Drunk Confidential."

 

I think most people have been sticking to the topic. In my opinion, some people have read into the discussion details and opinions about rape as a whole that are simply not part of the topic which has been specifically geared toward the social norms that exist among adults in institutions of higher learning.

 

 

Yeah, I think that the misunderstanding has been on my end!  I mean, I think that the cop's article is making ridiculous exaggerations, and he seems to be extrapolating from his experience with rape on one campus (experiences which don't match the statistics at all) to draw general conclusions, and I think he's dead wrong.  I've read his email or whatever it was three times now, and it gets worse with each reading.  So I stand by my assessment of his article.  But when I thought that people here were making similar extrapolations, it may very well have been entirely 100% my misunderstanding.  I apologize.

 

And I'm sure this doesn't need to be said, but I feel like saying it.  In no way shape or form am I trying to defend binge drinking or hook-up culture!  Not even remotely!  I'm only trying to defend women from the stereotype that article promotes of the typical rape victim being a drunk girl who had consensual sex and then cried rape later, because I think that is hateful and destructive.

[TianXiaXueXiao]

Yeah, I think that the misunderstanding has been on my end! I mean, I think that the cop's article is making ridiculous exaggerations, and he seems to be extrapolating from his experience with rape on one campus (experiences which don't match the statistics at all) to draw general conclusions, and I think he's dead wrong. I've read his email or whatever it was three times now, and it gets worse with each reading. So I stand by my assessment of his article. But when I thought that people here were making similar extrapolations, it may very well have been entirely 100% my misunderstanding. I apologize.

 

And I'm sure this doesn't need to be said, but I feel like saying it. In no way shape or form am I trying to defend binge drinking or hook-up culture! Not even remotely! I'm only trying to defend women from the stereotype that article promotes of the typical rape victim being a drunk girl who had consensual sex and then cried rape later, because I think that is hateful and destructive.

I agree with you about the cop's attitude. He is jaded. He has been doing this for a long time. I guess his voice sounds so familiar, having been raised by LEO'S, that is easier for me to take with a grain of salt. Honestly, he sounds tame compared to my mother and unpolished compared to my late father. You can't spend a lifetime on the force and come away sounding very optimistic about society...truthfully.

 

I do see where you are coming from in regards to stereotyping. It's difficult to draw connections with crimes to the prevalence of certain behaviors without the risk of stereotyping as a result.

[Greta]

I agree with you about the cop's attitude. He is jaded. He has been doing this for a long time. I guess his voice sounds so familiar, having been raised by LEO'S, that is easier for me to take with a grain of salt. Honestly, he sounds tame compared to my mother and unpolished compared to my late father. You can't spend a lifetime on the force and come away sounding very optimistic about society...truthfully.

 

I do see where you are coming from in regards to stereotyping. It's difficult to draw connections with crimes to the prevalence of certain behaviors without the risk of stereotyping as a result.

 

 

I can only imagine!!!  It's a very difficult job, one that I would never want and that I'm not remotely equipped to handle.  I am in awe of those who do it well.

[jeninok]

I am just going to leave this right here.   Not because it has direct connections to whomever wrote this article in the OP, but because they made a choice to explicitly point out that some think the sentence was too harsh, twice.   There is a prevailing mindset, not only in the public, but within both (some of) the media and  the criminal justice system that these women are at fault, mostly just for being women. 

Also because, these women were in drug court or the jail system, and it closely mirrors another recent oklahoma case of an officer targeting and raping poor black women who had nearly no chance of being believed until an older woman came forward. 

 

Also lets not forget that underage prostitutes are often arrested and sent to juvenile detention instead of being treated as the absolute victims of sex trafficking and rape that they are. 

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/ex-sheriff-sentenced-in-sex-abuse-scandal/

 

 

Edited to add:
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/fd1d4d05e561462a85abe50e7eaed4ec/ap-hundreds-officers-lose-licenses-over-sex-misconduct


Pardon me if I completely disregard what some random unverified "officer" has to say on the matter. 

Edited June 18, 2016 by jeninok

[Greta]

I am just going to leave this right here. Not because it has direct connections to whomever wrote this article in the OP, but because they made a choice to explicitly point out that some think the sentence was too harsh, twice. There is a prevailing mindset, not only in the public, but within both (some of) the media and the criminal justice system that these women are at fault, mostly just for being women.

 

Also because, these women were in drug court or the jail system, and it closely mirrors another recent oklahoma case of an officer targeting and raping poor black women who had nearly no chance of being believed until an older woman came forward.

 

Also lets not forget that underage prostitutes are often arrested and sent to juvenile detention instead of being treated as the absolute victims of sex trafficking and rape that they are.

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/ex-sheriff-sentenced-in-sex-abuse-scandal/

 

 

Edited to add:

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/fd1d4d05e561462a85abe50e7eaed4ec/ap-hundreds-officers-lose-licenses-over-sex-misconduct

 

 

Pardon me if I completely disregard what some random unverified "officer" has to say on the matter.

Absolutely nauseating. :(

[poppy]

So if it's not a "word from the inside" by a detective but instead is an exaggerated polemic.... what is the point of it, then?