Vegans - physical ailments because of this choice?

[Janna]

I have been vegan for about two months now, following the Eat to Live diet by Dr. Joel Furhman. I do however, admit to not being strict about it for the last 2 weeks or so. I have been eating cheese periodically and for some reason, lots of dark chocolate :confused:.

 

ANYWAY!

 

I have noticed that my lips have become very itchy and dry. There aren't any bumps or anything on them, they are just very itchy. And red. The first occurrence was about a month ago. I thought it was because I was eating too much fruit. Eventually it went away (took about a week).

 

It has come back again today. So I've tried to do a little research and so far, have read that it could be a deficiency of vitamin B 12, which is found in meat,fish and eggs.

 

I'm just curious if anyone else has experienced this, and if any of you who are vegans have suffered any physical signs of being on this diet without supplements?

 

Thanks

[kalanamak]

It has come back again today. So I've tried to do a little research and so far, have read that it could be a deficiency of vitamin B 12, which is found in meat,fish and eggs.

 

 

Unless you were on the verge of deficiency, 2 months without any B12 is not enough time to run low on it. Many soy milks are supplemented with it. The sublingual tabs are easy.

 

Winter is coming on. I'm itching on my face, my blotches and periorbital dermatitis is coming back. Son is needing moisturizer on his back again. I vote for winter.

[abbeyej]

As kalanamak said, it would be tough for you to become truly deficient in that amount of time unless you were already on the edge. Certainly though, you could take supplements, or you could choose to incorporate some small quantity of animal foods into your diet (since you aren't a vegan for ideological reasons). It doesn't take much.

 

It does seem odd, but I'd be very surprised if it had anything to do with a B12 deficiency.

[Jenny in Florida]

I've never had a health problem traceable to diet. In fact, I have very few health problems at all.

 

My kids have been vegan their whole lives and are absurdly healthy, too. Neither has ever had so much as a cavity. I think my daughter was on antibiotics once when she was a toddler.

 

As the other two already said, I can't imagine you'd develop any kind of serious deficiency in such a short time.

[beansprouts]

Weelll...

 

Vitamin B-12 defiency is the number one problem for vegans. While many believe then can get B-12 from spirulina, Brewer's yeast and even rainwater, these actually are B-12 analogs which can not be metabolized by the body. The only reliable source for vitamin B-12 is animal products, especially eggs and organ meats.

 

I don't know how long it takes to have symptoms of a B-12 defiency. This is not the only problem with veganism, however.

 

You also need saturated fats. These fats have been vilified in recent years, but the fact is these compounds make up 50% of our cell membranes, are needed for our bones to absorb calcium, enhance the immune system, and have a number of other benefits. The only vegan source for saturated fats is coconut oil, which is well worth adding to any diet.

 

Another problem is that your body needs eight essential amino acids that it can not create for itself. At least three of them are found most plentifully in meat and eggs and are scarce in vegetarian sources.

 

There is other research, issues with absorbing vitamins A and D and so forth, but I need to get a baby to bed. I can tell you that I began researching nutrition eight years ago. I was honestly looking for the healthiest diet for me and my kids, and I was willing to make any necessary sacrifices. I am firmly convinced that my family does need at least some animal products in order to meet all of our nutritional needs.

[Lovedtodeath]

I suffered from B-12 deficiency. It caused neuropathy and fatigue. I was able to get off of many medications prescribed for Fibromyalgia after getting B-12 shots for 6 months. I don't recall itching being a problem. The most common reason for B-12 deficiency is an inability to digest it, regardless of diet... or sublingual tabs.

[Jenny in Florida]

Weelll...

 

Vitamin B-12 defiency is the number one problem for vegans. While many believe then can get B-12 from spirulina, Brewer's yeast and even rainwater, these actually are B-12 analogs which can not be metabolized by the body. The only reliable source for vitamin B-12 is animal products, especially eggs and organ meats.

 

I don't know how long it takes to have symptoms of a B-12 defiency. This is not the only problem with veganism, however.

 

You also need saturated fats. These fats have been vilified in recent years, but the fact is these compounds make up 50% of our cell membranes, are needed for our bones to absorb calcium, enhance the immune system, and have a number of other benefits. The only vegan source for saturated fats is coconut oil, which is well worth adding to any diet.

 

Another problem is that your body needs eight essential amino acids that it can not create for itself. At least three of them are found most plentifully in meat and eggs and are scarce in vegetarian sources.

 

There is other research, issues with absorbing vitamins A and D and so forth, but I need to get a baby to bed. I can tell you that I began researching nutrition eight years ago. I was honestly looking for the healthiest diet for me and my kids, and I was willing to make any necessary sacrifices. I am firmly convinced that my family does need at least some animal products in order to meet all of our nutritional needs.

 

Hmm. I'd love to see your sources for the above information. I've done a lot of research, too. Believe me, I wouldn't risk my kids' health by adopting any diet without getting very, very comfortable with it. And I've never seen any reputable source that supports these contentions.

 

This topic is important enough to me, though, that I never consider it closed. So, if you have information or resources to share, I'd truly appreciate the citations.

 

Thanks!

[cillakat]

hey abbey!

 

to the op, it's unlikely anything to do with b12 but could very likely have something to do with inadequate preformed A (many of us don't convert bc very well to the bioactive A analog). could

 

could be iron deficiency:

http://dermnetnz.org/systemic/iron-deficiency.html

 

 

http://www.umm.edu/blood/aneiron.htm

Iron is obtained from foods in our diet, however, only 1 mg of iron is absorbed for every 10 to 20 mg of iron ingested. A person unable to have a balanced iron-rich diet may suffer from some degree of iron-deficiency anemia.

 

riboflavin deficiency:

http://www.merck.com/mmpe/sec01/ch004/ch004e.html

 

niacin deficiency can cause cracked lips

EFA - omega 3/6 insufficiency or imbalance in the ratios

 

zinc

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18054190?ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

<<...growth retardation, hypogonadism in males, hepato-splenomegaly, rough and dry skin,.....The diet of these patients consisted of mainly cereal proteins which contained high phytate and this led to decreased availability of iron and zinc.>>

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16611387?ordinalpos=8&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

<<In conclusion, the vegetarian diet compared with the meat-based diets resulted in lower amounts of absorbed Zn due to a higher content of Zn in the meat diets, but no difference was observed in the fractional absorption of Zn.>> in other words, the veg diets didn't have enough zinc.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18248795?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

 

<< These findings indicate that zinc deficiency influences the skin barrier system>> iow, total epidermal water loss is increased, skin (incl lips) get drier.

 

Tissue integrity depends upon

1)adequate protein (easily done wether vegan or veg or meat eater)

2)sufficient preformed vitamin a (easy to get enough bc, genetic and individual differences in how well we convert bc to stored A)

3)zinc....easy peasy to develop a zinc deficiency esp on an unsupplemented plant based diet.

 

Also, in an evolutionary diet, organ meats would have been the signficant source of b vitamins and vitamin A, significant for zinc and iron. Muscle meat would have been the significant source of zinc and iron.

 

Keeping in mind that the RDI are definitely not sufficient for optimal health(only sufficient to stave off the worst of the deficiency diseases), it's difficult on a fully plant based unsupplemented diet to get sufficient zinc, iron, A and b vites. Many cereals and breads are supplemented with an array of b vites plus zinc and iron. However, many following here and many follwoing Fuhrmans advice tend to eat organic anyway and many alternative grain and/or non mainstream and/or organic foods are not similarly supplemented.

 

Furman purposely presents only carefully selected evidence to further his own agenda rather than letting the evidence speak for itself. It is difficult to, on a fully plant based diet, get sufficient amounts of zinc, iron, calcium, magnesium absorbed and assimilated. It is *impossible* to get sufficient vitamin d from a vegetarian or vegan diet and virtually impossible( from animal foods) to do so unless one eats 6-12 oz wild salmon daily. Most of the US cannot get sufficient D from the sun most of the year and where latitutde and skintone allows, we often block d production by staying indoors midday and wearing sunscreen. D supplementation is required for nearly everyone.

 

vitamindcouncil.org is the best source for evidence based D information.

 

but before I'm flamed entirely, I will say that I fully agree that a produce dominated diet is optimal.....that eating mostly produce at every meal is absolutely the best thing we can do from a dietary perspective. In an ideal world, probably 75-90% of cals would come from produce. Add in some legums, some nuts and small amounts of animal protein (think dark for optimal zinc, iron - red meat -and bright: wild salmon for D and omega 3) and you'll quickly round out the nutrients of most concern. D still won't be sufficient overall but that's easy enough to fix with d3 supplements (not d2)

 

My health soared in some ways on a vegetarian/vegan/raw foods diet and suffered greatly in others. My skin was initially glowing and smooth until the zinc deficiency caught up with me. I had boundless energy until the immune deficiency (from zinc, iron, D and A deficiency) set in. but it was my mental health that suffered most significantly. Within 8 mos of adopting a mostly vegan, largely life foods diet, unrelenting anxiety set in....clearly i needed more d, omega 3, b6 etc etc....

 

All the best,

K

[cillakat]

hey abbey!

 

to the op, it's unlikely anything to do with b12 but could very likely have something to do with inadequate preformed A (many of us don't convert bc very well to the bioactive A analog). could

 

could be iron deficiency:

http://dermnetnz.org/systemic/iron-deficiency.html

 

 

http://www.umm.edu/blood/aneiron.htm

Iron is obtained from foods in our diet, however, only 1 mg of iron is absorbed for every 10 to 20 mg of iron ingested. A person unable to have a balanced iron-rich diet may suffer from some degree of iron-deficiency anemia.

 

riboflavin deficiency:

http://www.merck.com/mmpe/sec01/ch004/ch004e.html

 

niacin deficiency can cause cracked lips

EFA - omega 3/6 insufficiency or imbalance in the ratios

 

zinc

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18054190?ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

<<...growth retardation, hypogonadism in males, hepato-splenomegaly, rough and dry skin,.....The diet of these patients consisted of mainly cereal proteins which contained high phytate and this led to decreased availability of iron and zinc.>>

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16611387?ordinalpos=8&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

<<In conclusion, the vegetarian diet compared with the meat-based diets resulted in lower amounts of absorbed Zn due to a higher content of Zn in the meat diets, but no difference was observed in the fractional absorption of Zn.>> in other words, the veg diets didn't have enough zinc.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18248795?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

 

<< These findings indicate that zinc deficiency influences the skin barrier system>> iow, total epidermal water loss is increased, skin (incl lips) get drier.

 

Tissue integrity depends upon

1)adequate protein (easily done wether vegan or veg or meat eater)

2)sufficient preformed vitamin a (easy to get enough bc, genetic and individual differences in how well we convert bc to stored A)

3)zinc....easy peasy to develop a zinc deficiency esp on an unsupplemented plant based diet.

 

Also, in an evolutionary diet, organ meats would have been the signficant source of b vitamins and vitamin A, significant for zinc and iron. Muscle meat would have been the significant source of zinc and iron.

 

Keeping in mind that the RDI are definitely not sufficient for optimal health(only sufficient to stave off the worst of the deficiency diseases), it's difficult on a fully plant based unsupplemented diet to get sufficient zinc, iron, A and b vites. Many cereals and breads are supplemented with an array of b vites plus zinc and iron. However, many following here and many follwoing Fuhrmans advice tend to eat organic anyway and many alternative grain and/or non mainstream and/or organic foods are not similarly supplemented.

 

Furman purposely presents only carefully selected evidence to further his own agenda rather than letting the evidence speak for itself. It is difficult to, on a fully plant based diet, get sufficient amounts of zinc, iron, calcium, magnesium absorbed and assimilated. It is *impossible* to get sufficient vitamin d from a vegetarian or vegan diet and virtually impossible( from animal foods) to do so unless one eats 6-12 oz wild salmon daily. Most of the US cannot get sufficient D from the sun most of the year and where latitutde and skintone allows, we often block d production by staying indoors midday and wearing sunscreen. D supplementation is required for nearly everyone.

 

vitamindcouncil.org is the best source for evidence based D information.

 

but before I'm flamed entirely, I will say that I fully agree that a produce dominated diet is optimal.....that eating mostly produce at every meal is absolutely the best thing we can do from a dietary perspective. In an ideal world, probably 75-90% of cals would come from produce. Add in some legums, some nuts and small amounts of animal protein (think dark for optimal zinc, iron - red meat -and bright: wild salmon for D and omega 3) and you'll quickly round out the nutrients of most concern. D still won't be sufficient overall but that's easy enough to fix with d3 supplements (not d2)

 

My health soared in some ways on a vegetarian/vegan/raw foods diet and suffered greatly in others. My skin was initially glowing and smooth until the zinc deficiency caught up with me. I had boundless energy until the immune deficiency (from zinc, iron, D and A deficiency) set in. but it was my mental health that suffered most significantly. Within 8 mos of adopting a mostly vegan, largely life foods diet, unrelenting anxiety set in....clearly i needed more d, omega 3, b6 etc etc....

 

All the best,

K

[Stacia]

I have noticed that my lips have become very itchy and dry. There aren't any bumps or anything on them, they are just very itchy. And red. The first occurrence was about a month ago. I thought it was because I was eating too much fruit. Eventually it went away (took about a week).

 

I would vote for it being due to the weather cooling off. If your lips were starting to get chapped, acidic fruits could make it worse too. Also, are you staying hydrated enough?

 

As far as it being a vegan-related thing.... I've been vegetarian for over 15 years. I do eat some dairy & some fish. But, as far as having reactions or deficiencies because of my diet, I haven't had any problems (except being a little bit anemic during the early part of my first pregnancy).

[Quiver0f10]

 

It has come back again today. So I've tried to do a little research and so far, have read that it could be a deficiency of vitamin B 12, which is found in meat,fish and eggs.

 

 

 

I don't know if it's connected as I haven't had that problem and have been vegan almost a year, but B=12 deficiency takes a while to happen and it shouldn't be an issue after only a few months. If you do plan to continue eating this way you should consider a supplement though.

[Lovedtodeath]

Just wanted to say that Golden Neo-Life Dyamite has a really good iron supplement. It is based on parsely and beets. It works better than any I have ever taken. My niece was was too anemic to schedule surgery and was able to get the go ahead after taking this.

 

I know for me I tend to get deficient in amino acids that are found in beef. I feel my healthiest when I have more beef in my diet. I really think everyone's nutritional needs are unique.

[Guest Virginia Dawn]

My daughter doesn't eat many animal products. Not because she is vegan or vegetarian, just because. She also doesn't get enough veggies, IMO, but she does eat quite a bit of fruit. More than once a doctor has asked her if she is vegetarian, once when she had an inordinate number of bruises appear on her legs, and another time when her son was born with a condition that often occurs in the boys of vegetarians.

[CactusPair]

No problems at all, but I do use supplements and fortified foods. Always have.

 

Health got much better with this kind of diet. Once in a while I do eat fish, though, just bec. I think it's so yummy.:)

[G5052]

I've tried veganism several times over the years, a good six months in each case. And frankly I couldn't make it work. Despite being careful what I ate and good suplements, I just didn't feel well and my hair and skin was awful.

 

I still emphasize fruits and vegetables, but I eat an egg per day, use organic milk in my coffee, and generally eat some meat at dinner. I feel much, much better and don't have the other problems I did then.

[StaceyinLA]

the Weston A. Price article is a really good one about deficiencies and problems with totally vegan diets. If I remember correctly, he offers a lot of supporting studies too. I only wish I could remember the darn link!!

[Jenny in Florida]

the Weston A. Price article is a really good one about deficiencies and problems with totally vegan diets. If I remember correctly, he offers a lot of supporting studies too. I only wish I could remember the darn link!!

 

Would this be the Weston A. Price who died in 1948? And the one in whose name was founded an organization specifically devoted to promoting a certain kind of diet?

 

Edited to add: By the way, in case anyone is interested, I found this article, which seems to take a nice, balance view (and has lots of footnotes): http://www.vegfamily.com/health/vegan-soy-information.htm

 

The Weston A. Price Foundation is listed at the bottom as a website to avoid if you're not looking for "scare tactics."

 

And I want to emphasize that I'm honestly not trying to pick on anyone or to "prove my point." I decided a long time ago that my ethical/dietary choices are my own and that I'm not out to convert anyone. I don't march or protest or even lecture friends. In fact, I've often been surprised to discover that it can take people a very long time to even notice I'm vegan. As I said in my response to Beansprouts, I just truly have a significant interest in these issues and was curious to know if there was important information I was missing.

Edited October 7, 2008 by Jenny in Florida