Utilizing AP credits in your student's college experience?

[swimmermom3]

For those of you with students who are already in college and who took AP classes in high school, were they able to utilize those credits?

 

One of the many things we learned on our recent college tour was that not all schools treat AP credits equally.  Well, I knew that, but not just how great the difference could be.  Finding the AP policy and credits given for the prospective schools is not enough homework. The policies looked similar on paper, but play out differently in real life. Theoretically, ds should be able to cut a semester off at every school he applied to.  However, several of them utilize the AP credits as electives only. At one school, they would not have made any difference in his program.  At his top choice, the AP policy and a fifth year master's program are part of what is keeping the school on the table. 

 

It has often been suggested on this board that students not use their AP credits in their majors. Could you all please elaborate on the reasoning for that?  On our trip, Sailor Dude attended two General Macroeconomics classes, a Spanish 2 class, and an Introduction to Comparative Politics class.  We are nearing the end of the school year and yet, ds didn't feel that these classes were anything that he couldn't handle.

 

Ds wants to major in International Relations with an emphasis on foreign policy, national security, and potentially, conflict resolution.  The AP Macroeconomics and Microeconomics exams give credit for the basic economics classes which are required for his major and for the school's general education requirements.  Do you recommend that he should take those classes again? Or am I misunderstanding the best ways to use AP credits? 

 

With the top school, ds has the potential to utilize 13-28 credits with only three hours of being relegated to an elective.  I don't expect to cut nearly a year off of his undergraduate program, but maybe a semester and to make room for a second language, which is high on his priority list.

 

We were told to run his AP classes past the actual department and see what is transferable. I have a letter ready to go.

 

I am not sure why schools still look at how many APs students are doing if the institution doesn't allow the student to use them. We did them predominantly for access to more challenging classes; university classes were less accessible, but I don't see the reason a student should have to repeat basic classes.

 

I think I've had too much coffee this morning and I hope it makes sense.  I am looking for real world experience.

Edited April 10, 2016 by swimmermom3

[wapiti]

On the econ, I would want to compare coverage of the AP courses with that of the specific college's micro and macro 101 courses.  Back in my day, the 101 micro and macro courses were followed by the micro and macro theory courses.  Micro in particular is so foundational (akin to, say, the foundational nature of algebra), I'd want to feel pretty confident in the AP course's coverage before I'd skip it for an econ major.  Maybe you could ask the department for a syllabus.

 

I am not sure why schools still look at how many APs students are doing if the institution doesn't allow the student to use them.

 

To compare competitiveness of applicants.  The more competitive the school, the more AP/DE courses needed for admissions purposes and yet more competitive schools are less likely to award credit.

[8filltheheart]

I would make the decision based the strength of the student and the mastery of material. My kids have not repeated courses,but at their schools and their individual strengths, they haven't needed to.

 

My 2 most advanced kids both did/do not want to repeat lower level courses bc they both feel very strong in those subjects.

[DebbS]

The reason that I tend to recommend not planning to use AP tests to get credit for a major-specific course is because oftentimes the department will make you retake the class anyways. Sometimes if they don't,  the student misses some important concepts that they will be expected to understand in the higher level courses.  That said, it depends on the college, the course and the student. It certainly doesn't hurt to have the AP experience and credits even if you have to take the course anyways.

 

The reason I tend to recommend the tests for gen ed credits is because getting those courses out of the way makes for easier scheduling and opens up some opportunities that the student wouldn't otherwise have. For example, my son is in a very structured program in college, but he also has scholarships based on taking an honors course every semester - all are outside of his major. So, not having to do as many gen eds gives him some room in his schedule to fit in the honors classes and possibly even earn a minor. In addition, his major program has recommended taking just 12 to 14 hours the first semester of his junior year because of the expected work load. Finishing his sophomore year with only two more gen. ed. requirements to complete makes that a whole lot more workable.

[angela in ohio]

I am not sure why schools still look at how many APs students are doing if the institution doesn't allow the student to use them. We did them predominantly for access to more challenging classes; university classes were less accessible, but I don't see the reason a student should have to repeat basic classes.

 

Oldest attends a school that gives no credit for AP or DE courses. You need those to get in. I think the reason is that they don't really have an equivalent to a basic course; you were expected to have that in HS. I've never seen a school that didn't offer credit that had regular basic classes, nor vice versa. I think that's why some schools do count them and some don't. 

 

Middle dd is trying to decide between that school and one that would take about a year's worth of her DE credits as transfer. This school has courses which match; one even uses the same textbook apparently. Some are dumb electives :D so it doesn't matter if she doesn't have to take them. Many of the others are math or computer courses, plus her chem sequence. The only one she would probably decline/retake would be the physics course. It would put her mid-sequence, which might not be great.

Edited April 10, 2016 by angela in ohio

[nancy in nj]

My daughter was awarded 27 credit hours at a large highly ranked public research university.  She is an Econ major.  At her school the econ sequence is a 1 semester introductory course followed by a calculus intensive intermediate micro course and an 1 semester calc intensive macro course.  Her AP micro/macro got her credit for the intro econ course and another 3 credits for a non-econ major intro course.  So she got 6 credits and met the prereq for the intermediate micro/macro courses.  There is no way that the AP courses were comparable to the calculus based intermediate courses, but she had no problem skipping the intro course.  I know other schools she looked at had separate semesters for the micro and macro intro courses and if there is no calc prereq for those courses and they are followed by intermediate micro/macro courses, then I would think taking the AP credit should be no problem.  She got credit for AP Stats which allowed her to take a 400-level economics statistics course her freshman year and again she had no problem jumping right in.  She also placed out of 2 semesters of calc and went directly to a 3rd semester multivariable course with no problem--but she has no plans to go beyond that in math--she absolutely hates calc and I honestly don't think she would have made it through 3 semesters at college (from a torture perspective!) so taking the AP credit and only suffering through one semester was the best thing ever!  She needs the calc 3 credit to enroll in some upper level stats classes in the stats department.  

 

In my dd's case she had no limit on the number of AP credits she could use to meet her distribution requirements.  This was the big difference with some of the private schools she was considering.  Even the ones that gave credit for the AP courses would not allow many, if any, of the AP credits to fulfill their distribution requirements----thereby, making the credits useless in terms of graduating early.

[nancy in nj]

nm

Edited April 10, 2016 by nancy in nj

[Kareni]

This doesn't address all of your questions, but I'll copy an old post about my daughter's AP experiences ~

 

"My daughter took four AP courses during high school and subsequently attended a selective liberal arts college.

She scored fours on her AP tests in US History and Comparative Government & Politics. She would have needed to score fives in order for her to obtain credit at her college.

She scored a five on AP Latin which would have fulfilled the foreign language requirement; however, since she majored in Latin/Classics that was a moot point. A score of four would have netted the same result.

Her five on the AP Statistics exam enabled her to fulfil one of the two college requirements for a quantitative data manipulation class. Once again, a score of four would have garnered the same result.

 

All that said, we have no regrets as all of the classes served to broaden her knowledge.  She also came to consider the AP Statistics class one of her two most valuable high school classes.  (Her minor at college was in Geology.)  By the same token, we also have no regrets about the many community college classes she also took in her last two years of high school."

 

Regards,

Kareni

[swimmermom3]

On the econ, I would want to compare coverage of the AP courses with that of the specific college's micro and macro 101 courses.  Back in my day, the 101 micro and macro courses were followed by the micro and macro theory courses.  Micro in particular is so foundational (akin to, say, the foundational nature of algebra), I'd want to feel pretty confident in the AP course's coverage before I'd skip it for an econ major.  Maybe you could ask the department for a syllabus.

 

This is a good idea.  He is required to take only one more economics class at the 300 level with both choices being International Economics, but one is from the International Relations school and the other is from the Economics department.  I suspect he will take more econ related classes because it is an area of interest.

 

[justasque]

 

I am not sure why schools still look at how many APs students are doing if the institution doesn't allow the student to use them. We did them predominantly for access to more challenging classes; university classes were less accessible, but I don't see the reason a student should have to repeat basic classes.

 

 

When we toured CalTech some years ago, they explained that virtually ALL of their students had taken AP Calc, so no credit was given for it and freshman math courses assumed that level of knowledge coming in (thus there was no repeat of the material even if you started with the basic freshman course).  With that in mind, not taking AP Calc would make a student a considerably weaker candidate for admission.  

 

 

[MarkT]

A nephew of mine went to Syracuse - he got lots of AP credits towards graduation

[snowbeltmom]

My son's academic advisor recommended that he use his AP credits to place into higher level courses - this approach worked very well for him.

[swimmermom3]

I would make the decision based the strength of the student and the mastery of material. My kids have not repeated courses,but at their schools and their individual strengths, they haven't needed to.

 

My 2 most advanced kids both did/do not want to repeat lower level courses bc they both feel very strong in those subjects.

 

The breakdown is as follows:

 

AP Stats meets University Mathematics Requirement

AP English Language meets half of the University Writing Requirement and places him into a Writing Intensive for the second part of the requirement.

 

*Most of the schools he was accepted to have a Freshmen Seminar class which incorporates writing, so AP English Language can only be an elective. He would still have a Freshmen Seminar, but it is in his area of study.

 

He can use four AP exams for his major.  He'll use three:

AP Macroeconomics - also meet general education requirements

AP Microeconomics - also meet general education requirements

AP US Government and Politics

 

The following exams would meet general education requirements:

 

AP English Literature - 6 credits (only half for gen. ed.)

AP US History - 6 credits (only half for gen. ed.)

AP Comparative Government and Politics

 

He has decided not to take the AP Spanish exam. Only a five will give him credit and it wouldn't count as he would be over the 30 credits transfer limit.  He'll have to take the language placement exam anyway and hopefully, will end up in about the same place.

 

I don't think that using the three courses for his major should be problematic as he is comfortable in all of them, but I'll do some extra research like Wapati suggested.

[wapiti]

One more thought - is he majoring in econ or in something else like business?  (sorry I can't remember!)  If he's actually majoring in economics, he will eventually want to take econometrics, which will have a calc prerequisite.  It may or may not be that AP calc is enough - it will depend on the school.  Also, if he majors in econ, there is likely a major-specific stats course that precedes econometrics (mine was also calc-based, but only because it was the honors version).

 

All this to say that if he majors in econ, he may end up with something else fulfilling the math requirement, so credit for AP stats may not be needed for that requirement, if he wants to use the AP Spanish instead and stay under the limit.

Edited April 10, 2016 by wapiti

[8filltheheart]

He should contact the dept if he is concerned. My ds sent his syllabuses to one dept bc he did not want to have to repeat any of the coursework he had completed. He had taken the 200 and 300 level classes at a directional university. He talked with the dean on the phone for quite a while. That top 40 university approved all of his courses for transfer credit. After talking to the dean, ds was confident if he had gone there he wouldn't have an issue with continuing his sequence.

 

Most depts are more than willing to work with students for proper placement. I would contact them and ask specifics.

[swimmermom3]

He should contact the dept if he is concerned. My ds sent his syllabuses to one dept bc he did not want to have to repeat any of the coursework he had completed. He had taken the 200 and 300 level classes at a directional university. He talked with the dean on the phone for quite a while. That top 40 university approved all of his courses for transfer credit. After talking to the dean, ds was confident if he had gone there he wouldn't have an issue with continuing his sequence.

 

Most depts are more than willing to work with students for proper placement. I would contact them and ask specifics.

 

The admissions counselor told us to direct our AP questions to the actual school (department) where he would be doing his work.  I have gone over the university requirements, the general education requirements, and the major requirements very, very carefully and have a set of questions to ask  and a proposed plan of how ds would like to use the credits if they work.  It's really important to him to make space for Arabic in addition to Spanish. I'll make sure I have all of the syllabi in one place in case they ask.

 

Honestly, using the credits and the fifth year master's program makes a difference in how we perceive the financial viability of this school as an option. 

 

[angela in ohio]

When we toured CalTech some years ago, they explained that virtually ALL of their students had taken AP Calc, so no credit was given for it and freshman math courses assumed that level of knowledge coming in (thus there was no repeat of the material even if you started with the basic freshman course).  With that in mind, not taking AP Calc would make a student a considerably weaker candidate for admission.  

 

 

 

Yes, this. :)

Theoretically, ds should be able to cut a semester off at every school he applied to.  

 

 

I'm sure you know this, but even if a student is allowed and willing to skip a college class in lieu of an AP class, the sequencing of classes in college may prevent an early graduation. For example, even if a student tests out of first semester calculus, second semester calc may only be offered in the spring semester.  Maybe the student can use these slots to take extra electives, or to take fewer classes and focus more on them, but a student may very well enter college with "sophomore standing", and still require 4+ years to graduate.

[LisaKinVA]

It definitely depends upon the school.

 

We've only really explored two for my daughter:  USNA and LU.  She'd get fewer AP course credits at USNA -- but really it's just a placement into a higher course, or possibly the ability to double major. There is no graduating early.  At LU, between AP, CLEP and DE credit, DD would be able to amass just over 70 credits.  This would allow her to major in mathematics and Biology with a teacher licensure, plus a minor in German.  And, because of how science licensure works, she would only need one more Chem and one more Physics elective to be certified to teach those sciences as well.  She could also begin her Masters in Education (Mathematics specialist), graduating in 5 years with 2 B.S. degrees, a minor and a teacher licensure (assuming she passed all of her certifications), and her Masters.