Does anyone skip grades 5-8 outlining?

[Melissa B]

I'm evaluating our classes and find that my dd is getting very little out of the outlining exercises. They are time consuming and I am beginning to question the point. I think the outlining of key ideas and supporting evidence is important (such as in Adler's How to Read a Book.) But, what is the point of paragraph outlining? I asked my daughter to write a paper from her outline today simply because I wanted to see how the outline would help her in writing her paper. She could do a fine rewrite of what was in the chapter based on her outline. But that was all she could do. It was the author's work rewritten. She had copied facts into an outline and then rewritten them into a fact based paper. But, there were no ideas in her paper. Her paragraph outline couldn't take her from the facts in the book to a thesis of her own based on the ideas behind what the author had written. I could see spending fifth grade on outlines - for paragraph study. Making sure the student has an understanding of topic sentences, bodies of a paragraph, supporting material, paragraph styles, etc. But what about grades six through eight?

 

I know SWB suggests doing the paragraph outlining until grade 8 and then moving into the outlining for student's writing their own papers. But, I don't understand the value of the four years of paragraph outlining. I would think I will need to reteach outlining based on key ideas, key phrases and supporting evidence when the child is older anyway. When will the paragraph outlining be useful? I only remember writing outlines of ideas for writing papers or preparing for tests - never paragraph outlining. I need to see the big picture. How will four years of paragraph outlining be beneficial to my children? Is it used in high school? Is it a difficult enough skill to master to require four years of practice? It quite possibly is - I just need it explained to me in a larger context. Thanks!! :D

[Alana in Canada]

This is an excellent question. I have some vague notion that it is supposed to help when writing a paper from several sources--one can reconstruct the author's ideas in one's own words--without having to copy great chunks of the author's words and somehow trying to make them sound like one's own.

 

I was always flummoxed by this in my own writing: I was so relieved when someone introduced me to "direct quotation"--fianlly it was permissable to take someone else's own words and just drop them into my paper. But, of course, those papers had no style and were just choppy, blocky things.

 

However, that's only an assumption--and even if it is true--is it worth four years of weekly writing?

 

Is there a hidden benefit or pay off we're missing?

 

:bigear:

[Laura Corin]

I only use outlining as a tool to teach students to plan their own pieces. I teach note-taking/highlighting for reading texts.

 

Laura

[Peela]

I only use outlining as a tool to teach students to plan their own pieces. I teach note-taking/highlighting for reading texts.

 

Laura

 

This is pretty much what we do as well. I started with outlining, found with both kids that they understood the concept pretty quickly and were able to find the main points pretty easily. They practice it sometimes, but mostly my older uses it to write an essay. My younger hasnt got there yet.

There is only so much time in the week- I still find a value in written narrations through these ages- more in depth- and various other types of writing. So no, I havent followed the outlining instructions in TWTM.

[Haiku]

But, there were no ideas in her paper. Her paragraph outline couldn't take her from the facts in the book to a thesis of her own based on the ideas behind what the author had written.

 

I can't speak to the benefit of four years of outlining, but my thought is ... your daughter is 10, right? I really wouldn't expect a 10 year old to be able to formulate "a thesis of her own based on ideas behind what the author had written." That's a pretty advanced skill.

 

Tara

[Colleen in NS]

But, what is the point of paragraph outlining?

 

But what about grades six through eight?

 

But, I don't understand the value of the four years of paragraph outlining.

 

When will the paragraph outlining be useful?

 

I need to see the big picture. How will four years of paragraph outlining be beneficial to my children?

 

Is it used in high school?

 

Is it a difficult enough skill to master to require four years of practice?

 

Have you listened to SWB's Writing Without Fear CD? She explains the value of outlining as writing skills practice.

 

She also recommends just doing one level outlining in 5th grade, 2 level in 6th grade, 3 level in 7th, and 4th level in 8th - I'm guessing so it's not burdensome and so kids have plenty of practice with one skill at a time. I think she also recommended not doing rewriting from an outline until 6th or 7th, again, so they have plenty of time to practice examining paragraphs first before starting another skill. And I'm guessing that the first attempts at rewriting from an outline will be just that - rewriting the original writer's thoughts, without inserting your own, because you are just practicing imitating the original writer, to see how a good writer lays out thoughts and puts them together. It's kind of like copywork to a 1st grader.

 

Later (high school?) comes being able to write your own original thoughts from your own outline of your own thoughts. But it comes after several years of slow-paced practice in examining paragraphs and rewriting another's thoughts. My understanding from the CD is that the practice of examining another's thoughts and rewriting those thoughts helps you to formulate your own ability/style to be able to write your own thoughts clearly.

 

After writing skills practice, I think outlining is also valuable for extracting information for the sake of learning something new.

 

I don't think it's a difficult skill to master, if you pace it out over a period of years.

 

hth (even though my oldest is only 10, this is what I have understood from SWB's CD, it made sense to me, and I will implement these ideas over the next few years)

[Cornerstone Classical]

Have you listened to SWB's Writing Without Fear CD? She explains the value of outlining as writing skills practice.

 

She also recommends just doing one level outlining in 5th grade, 2 level in 6th grade, 3 level in 7th, and 4th level in 8th - I'm guessing so it's not burdensome and so kids have plenty of practice with one skill at a time. I think she also recommended not doing rewriting from an outline until 6th or 7th, again, so they have plenty of time to practice examining paragraphs first before starting another skill. And I'm guessing that the first attempts at rewriting from an outline will be just that - rewriting the original writer's thoughts, without inserting your own, because you are just practicing imitating the original writer, to see how a good writer lays out thoughts and puts them together. It's kind of like copywork to a 1st grader.

 

Later (high school?) comes being able to write your own original thoughts from your own outline of your own thoughts. But it comes after several years of slow-paced practice in examining paragraphs and rewriting another's thoughts. My understanding from the CD is that the practice of examining another's thoughts and rewriting those thoughts helps you to formulate your own ability/style to be able to write your own thoughts clearly.

 

After writing skills practice, I think outlining is also valuable for extracting information for the sake of learning something new.

 

I don't think it's a difficult skill to master, if you pace it out over a period of years.

 

hth (even though my oldest is only 10, this is what I have understood from SWB's CD, it made sense to me, and I will implement these ideas over the next few years)

 

:iagree: IMO, this is a important skill to aquire. Outlining in the logic stage takes the place of what narration is in the grammar stage. Switching from narration to outlining is necessary due to more information being presented, for example in reading primary sources. It is the nail down more complex information. SWB does write how every year is a progression to the way outlining is done.

In 5th is just simple Roman Numeral I. II. III and so on.

 

6th-I. Main Point

A.First supporting point

B.second

 

7th- I.First Main point

A.First supporting point

1.First subpoint

2.second subpoint

 

8th- Same as 7th

 

This way of teaching the student to study,break information down, and outline is teaching oneself-the main goal of what classical education is... in the rhetoric stage.

[katilac]

I do have my 5th grader do some outlines, but nowhere near the amount WTM calls for - - no way does she outline every chapter in history, for example.

 

Note-taking was the norm for me in my studies, and probably will be for my kids as well. I never outlined in the WTM manner, and had no problems picking up the skill of outlines for my own writing.

[Melissa B]

Thanks so much for your replies!

 

I have been giving it quite a bit of thought and have been reading the other threads on outlining as well. I guess what it comes down to is that I DO expect a sixth-grader to be able to write a paragraph with an original thesis statement. I don't believe waiting until high school before beginning to teach thesis writing or essay writing will be beneficial in our home. And I really don't see the benefit of spreading out the outlining of factual information over four years. I do see the benefit of outlining an author's key points and supporting material and I do see the benefit of outlining an author's essay to study how that particular author ordered his information and to discuss his logic and style. But we are going to limit the outlining of factual information such as Kingfisher history or a science text to fourth and fifth grade and begin shifting our focus to the outlining of ideas and the development of a thesis statement in sixth grade.

 

I really appreciate everyone answering my questions and helping me to clarify exactly what I expect from my children as they get older. :001_smile:

[G5052]

We use IEW for writing, and I figure that they get plenty there.

[Amy loves Bud]

Have you listened to SWB's Writing Without Fear CD? She explains the value of outlining as writing skills practice.

 

She also recommends just doing one level outlining in 5th grade, 2 level in 6th grade, 3 level in 7th, and 4th level in 8th - I'm guessing so it's not burdensome and so kids have plenty of practice with one skill at a time. I think she also recommended not doing rewriting from an outline until 6th or 7th, again, so they have plenty of time to practice examining paragraphs first before starting another skill. And I'm guessing that the first attempts at rewriting from an outline will be just that - rewriting the original writer's thoughts, without inserting your own, because you are just practicing imitating the original writer, to see how a good writer lays out thoughts and puts them together. It's kind of like copywork to a 1st grader.

 

Later (high school?) comes being able to write your own original thoughts from your own outline of your own thoughts. But it comes after several years of slow-paced practice in examining paragraphs and rewriting another's thoughts. My understanding from the CD is that the practice of examining another's thoughts and rewriting those thoughts helps you to formulate your own ability/style to be able to write your own thoughts clearly.

 

After writing skills practice, I think outlining is also valuable for extracting information for the sake of learning something new.

 

I don't think it's a difficult skill to master, if you pace it out over a period of years.

 

hth (even though my oldest is only 10, this is what I have understood from SWB's CD, it made sense to me, and I will implement these ideas over the next few years)

 

I agree with this. I also remember Susan saying that the ability to structure an essay is often sorely lacking in her college students, which is why she emphasizes this. An understanding of how to give your writing strong bones should result from this exercise.