I can't decide about mental math

[shinyhappypeople]

YES, it's useful.  I'm just not sure it's worth it.  Or, let's keep it real here: I'm just not sure it's achievable for her, given  her cognitive quirks (WM: 4%, PS: 1%, SLD: Math, Mild) and the fact that we have a LOT of ground to cover between now and high school.  We're in triage mode and mental math isn't going to make the cut... maybe.    

 

BUT, I don't want to shortchange her.

 

Someone please tell me that fluency with pencil and paper math is enough.   

 

FWIW, she is working on math facts daily, which is a non-negotiable for me.  But, I'm talking about requiring doing stuff like "184-35" in her head.  

 

[shinyhappypeople]

p.s. I really need to stop reading threads on the K-8/General Boards about math expectations.  Really.  They're not at all helpful to me and leave me feeling discouraged and depressed.

[Heathermomster]

What are you doing in terms of OT/PT and cognitive therapies?  Where are you in terms of IM, Cogmed, or the many other programs I failed to mention?

 

For math, I'd probably use Semple or Touch math plus daily living type math and move on.

[Heathermomster]

p.s. I really need to stop reading threads on the K-8/General Boards about math expectations.  Really.  They're not at all helpful to me and leave me feeling discouraged and depressed.

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[Alice]

Fluency with paper and pencil is enough. At least I think it is. I am terrible at mental math, I think partially because I was never taught it. However, I went fairly high in advanced math in high school and college (through Differential Equation in college) and never found that the inability to do mental math was a problem. I was a Biology and Chemistry major and did fine. Understanding the concept behind what I was doing was important (although also something I wish I had been taught better) and being able to do the problem on paper vs. using a calculator was important but I've never found it to be a huge problem in everyday life that I struggle with mental math. It helps to also be very quick doing math on paper. I find that now when I do "mental  math" what I am actually doing is visualizing writing the problem in my head and then doing it like I would do on paper. 

 

I think a useful thing is to be able to at least estimate in my head. So for 135-78, I might have a problem but I should be able to see that and think well it's kind of close to 150-75 which is 75. Or even it's sort of close to being between150-100 and 150-50 if that's easier. That way if I do the problem wrong and and get 157 I can immediately see that I'm wrong. I find that to be a big issue in the Chemistry class at our co-op (I grade the labs for the teacher). The students often give answers that should be obviously wrong or impossible but because they are using their calculator they just are used to writing down the answer. I try to teach them to at least think about "does that answer make sense" and if not they need to rework it as they likely mistyped something into the calculator. 

[OneStepAtATime]

I was NEVER good at mental math.  I still went on to college, had a career, have always managed our family finances and I also run the family business finances.  I will probably never be good at mental math.  I can't hold the numbers in my head long enough to manipulate them.  I can still function just fine.  This is anecdotal obviously but seriously, while mental math sounds great, it is NOT the be all and end all of existence.  Neither is rote memorizing math facts.  I was never able to do that, either.

 

DD is now 15.  She is slowly getting SOME math facts down.  That is a big help with speed for math.  However, not all of it sticks and it may never.  We keep moving forward.  Mental math, like with Math In Focus and Singapore, were a total nightmare for her.  They didn't make sense.  CLE has made a lot more sense, as has Basic College Math.  She uses both.  She has her CLE math facts chart to refer to when necessary and she still works separately on memorizing certain math facts but we don't spend a ton of time on it.  Why?  She's been at this for years and all it did was confuse and discourage her.  I want her to understand concepts if possible but memorizing facts is just not a hill I am willing to sacrifice my daughter on.  She has several down, now, and that's great.  If the other facts come, wonderful.  But I am not stressing her out any more over rote memorization.  

 

Honestly, because she now has that math chart to back her up if she can't remember something, and she knows to use a scratch paper to keep the numbers straight, she is so much more enthusiastic about math and the CONCEPTS are coming because she isn't using all her mental resources trying to remember math facts or crunch numbers in her head.  She also uses lattice method for multiplication so she isn't having to switch operations over and over or worry about lining up the numbers correctly.  She likes math, now.  She functions in math, now.  She sometimes chooses to do math first.  I would much rather she learn the concepts and feel capable and enjoy math than make her keep banging her head against the same brick wall over and over and over, making very little progress, KWIM?

 

Hugs.  I totally get where you are at.  I have fallen into that hole many times.  Best wishes.  

[shinyhappypeople]

What are you doing in terms of OT/PT and cognitive therapies?  Where are you in terms of IM, Cogmed, or the many other programs I failed to mention?

 

For math, I'd probably use Semple or Touch math plus daily living type math and move on.

 

She's in vision therapy at the moment, which is pretty amazing.  Interesting:  one of the activities she was given initially was Auditory Span practice, which was basically identical to what's on the WISC IV.  We're supposed to pick that up again towards the end of VT.  I just thought it was an interesting connection.

 

I have Working Memory Activities but haven't used it yet.  One big stumbling block is she she says she is unable to mentally visualize anything.

 

What might OT or PT do for her?

 

IM - ??? Clearly I have a lot to learn.

 

CogMed - closest is a couple of hours away so not practical for us.

[netwelladm]

Yes, mental math (I have no doubt.) is useful. I just don’t think it is everything. In my mind, I would much rather my kids are able to work a math problem with pen and paper, on a chalkboard, with a stick in the sand. If they had to rely on a calculator, that would make me very sad. If they can do some problems mentally, that is a good day. If they can't, it is still a good day as long as they can work as mentioned initially.

We (speaking of myself as well) need to quit comparing our kids/students to other kids/students if we are going to enjoy the journey. We (speaking of myself as well) need to quit comparing ourselves to other parents/teachers if we are going to enjoy the journey.

 

We may not get to all that others have or even do it as well as others. BUT, but that is ok now. I am seeing progress. That is what matters to me.

I think math needs to be a combination because math is “mental†lol anyway. I really can't do all problems mentally. Saxon pre-algebra has two mental problems with each chapter. Right now, I think that is perfect. From my reading, I see now that some textbooks may be all mental math. I don’t think I or my kids would enjoy such a textbook. But that is ok. Isn’t that why we homeschool?

[Alessandra]

We are doing all the SM mental math (there is lots in the instructor guide) right now and also playing games that require mental math. Dd and I do it together, orally. We sometimes try to reach the answer in several different ways, emphasizing that no one way is the best. We always start with manipulatives. Cuisenaire rods were the first, then a place value set (the blue plastic), then number disks, drawing circles on a dry erase board, playing with manipulatives apps, etc. Dd is a visual learner, so that she often pictures the manipulatives when thinking of an answer.

 

Imo, it is very empowering for dd to be able to do the math mentally. For long problems, I would not ask for mental math, as I don't want to tackle two concepts at once. But mm on its own is an enjoyable way of stretching the mind and developing number sense. Dd had so many years in school of shortcuts like calculators, number lines, algorithms, that she did not believe she was capable of math. We are a long way behind, overall in math, but I am not thinking of dropping the mental math in order to move forward faster.

 

Ymmv, but this is my experience.

[PeterPan]

Dr. Cotter of RightStart found most people do *2* digit math in their head.  You gave *3* digit.  So that's the first thing, that many people would get flustered.  That would require additional working memory to complete (because of the extra digits) which she doesn't have.  You can do things for working memory to see if that helps.  You can do it with rods and work on visualization strategies.  But simply as a question of computation, calculator.

 

What's more interesting is the LIFE question, like how this comes up in life, is she functional for life, does she have strategies to handle situations where things like this come up, does this kind of scenario come up...  And I'm sitting here thinking about the last time I, as an adult, did math like that.  I might do it if I were shopping for clothes or something and wanted to keep track of how much I was spending.  I might be tallying things I bought for my MIL.  There are uses, but they're limited and they're situations in which she could have *strategies*.  At that point the question is does she know when to use her strategies and when to bust out a calculator, and does she have at least enough number sense to know that the answer she got using her strategies or tools (even a calculator) is REASONABLE?  Because having the number sense to know her answer is REASONABLE will be much more important than whether she uses the calculator or does it in her head.

[Heathermomster]

She's in vision therapy at the moment, which is pretty amazing.  Interesting:  one of the activities she was given initially was Auditory Span practice, which was basically identical to what's on the WISC IV.  We're supposed to pick that up again towards the end of VT.  I just thought it was an interesting connection.

 

I have Working Memory Activities but haven't used it yet.  One big stumbling block is she she says she is unable to mentally visualize anything.

 

What might OT or PT do for her?

 

IM - ??? Clearly I have a lot to learn.

 

CogMed - closest is a couple of hours away so not practical for us.

A good OT or pediatric PT with training can assess and sort out any developmental motor issues which may affect vision.  

 

IM is interactive metronome and was used by my son's OT.  IM has been used by board members to improve WM.

[suenos]

We love mental math here. But it's b/c DS won't write.  Ahem..can't write fast enough for it to be a math problem and not a writing practice. I keep talking up this magical, easier, pencil and paper algorithm I'll show him some day...

 

But if our issue was the reverse...I'd drop it, or at least not emphasize it..in a heartbeat..does she understand the concepts, number sense, place value, know what to do to solve a problem? That seems way more important than whether she can remember the numbers in her head long enough and think quickly enough to get to a right answer. 

 

Oooh...the trying not to read other threads...thanks for the reminder!  I should never click on a NT/gen ed thread about reading "difficulties." Hah!  Torture!

 

I'm kinda new to posting here - I HS one kiddo...our weird hybrid of classically influenced, unschool-ish...DS 8. I work part-time as well. He's still acquiring acronyms, apparently - ADHD, SPD and newly minted LD in reading.  

[shinyhappypeople]

Thanks y'all. :)  

 

I think a better paradigm for my thinking is simply, "What is useful to her?"  What math will give her the tools to get her where she wants to go?

 

 

Estimation is a huge "use it daily" mental math skill, so it makes sense to spend time with that.  Also, I love the idea of teaching her to think "is this answer reasonable?"

 

 

 

 

[Heathermomster]

Ronit Bird's Overcoming Difficulties with Number might benefit your DD.  

[PeterPan]

Ronit Bird's books and ebooks have been amazing here.  

 

I don't know where your dd is at (age, disabilities, etc.), but another thing you can look at is functional math.  Not like oh that's all she can ever do, but functional, contextualized math is good and engaging for anyone at the right point, kwim?  Christine Reeve at TPT has things like pizza building.  I think there are some for Thanksgiving where you do menu planning and the cost of things.  SCM sells pet math.  Anything like that where it's functional, real life, estimating and thinking with a context.  I do it with my ds with the weather.