Spelling You See?

[vaquitita]

Has anyone used this and can review it for me? Is there any point in spending $45 on this, or would printing up my own copywork from dictation day by day in HWOT cursive and telling my kid to highlight vowel teams, consonant teams, etc be just as good?

[AnniePoo]

I'm a huge fan.  We have Level D (Americana for my 9yo).  Yes, you could do it on your own but who has time for that?  I think you could easily skip the instructor pack.  I've never even cracked mine open.

[vaquitita]

What does your child think about copying the same passage every day?

[forty-two]

Has anyone used this and can review it for me? Is there any point in spending $45 on this, or would printing up my own copywork from dictation day by day in HWOT cursive and telling my kid to highlight vowel teams, consonant teams, etc be just as good?

 

I have Book C, Wild Tales.  I got it because a) I couldn't quite picture how to do it on my own, and b) because I wanted open-and-go, with no need for me to pull together my own sources.   It was pricey, but I'm glad I got it, because I needed to see it done before it clicked in my head, and it does definitely deliver on the no-prep open-and-go-ness :thumbup:.

 

That said, now that it has clicked, I use the technique on our other copywork and dictation and honestly, I doubt we will finish Book C, let alone buy another level.  (Unless and until life intervenes and I need it already done for me.)  It's a really awesome technique and I'm glad I learned it, but now that I have, I've modified it to suit us better.  I have my own sheets of vowel chunks and consonant chunks (a sound-spelling chart with the sounds arranged by LIPS categories and the spellings sorted by frequency), plus a more comprehensive suffix sheet (from REWARDS), and I've added in marking blends (because dd9 can't hear them) and prefixes (because dd9 is learning them in REWARDS).  I use my own sheets even when we are doing SYS, because I like them better (the association with the sounds, plus SYS has this annoying tendency to list a bunch of chunks that aren't actually English phonograms (like "io" and "uu" and "hh" and "vv", just to name a few).  The marking order I've come up with is: vowels (chunks, then bossy-R and tricky Y-guy), then consonants (chunks, then blends), and finally word parts (prefixes and suffixes).

 

The repetition was good at first (dd9 was a very bad speller), but as she improves, it's starting to be unnecessary, although she still doesn't mind it.

[Butter]

Love it.  This is the first (of many) spelling curricula we've tried where the proper spelling actually transferred to their other schoolwork.  I reviewed it on my blog last month https://thefamilywho.wordpress.com/2015/10/05/spelling-you-see-review/

[rebcoola]

Also love it just started but its clear its perfect of my Visual Spatial Learner.   You could do your own I like having the open and go but I would skip the teacher handbook.

[vaquitita]

Nm

Edited December 12, 2015 by vaquitita

[vaquitita]

For those of you who use SUS, how do you handle cursive? SUS says the work should only be done in print, so what school work does your kid do in cursive?

[BatmansWife]

What does your child think about copying the same passage every day?

 

The same passage is repeated daily for the week for highlighting only.  The copywork will use different sentences from that passage/lesson each day.  When I first saw SYS I thought my daughter would hate working on the same thing every day for the entire week.  But, it's really not like that, at least in the levels we have.  

 

ETA: When I say "highlighting" I mean marking the chunks in different colors.  A pack of colored highlighters are the exact same colors used in the program, so we use highlighters instead of the colored pencils it comes with (because my daughter loves using the highlighters).  I supposed instead of me saying "for highlighting only" I should have said "for marking the chunks".  

 

I use my own sheets even when we are doing SYS, because I like them better (the association with the sounds, plus SYS has this annoying tendency to list a bunch of chunks that aren't actually English phonograms (like "io" and "uu" and "hh" and "vv", just to name a few).  

And I had already noticed some of SUS weird chunks...

 

Keep in mind that SYS is for spelling, not for learning to read.  Encoding (spelling) is completely different than reading (decoding).  I wouldn't say that SYS uses annoying or weird chunk combinations, because it's to help the student see the different combinations of spelling, not reading.  

 

We just started SYS recently and it's one of our favorite things for this year.  We plan on sticking with it through the end.  Personally I would not reinvent the wheel when it's already done for you with SYS...but that's just me (no time and no energy).  You could get away without the teacher's manual, but it has all the color coded chunks marked for quickly checking your student's work.  Without it, it would take more time and you might miss something yourself.  

[forty-two]

Keep in mind that SYS is for spelling, not for learning to read.  Encoding (spelling) is completely different than reading (decoding).  I wouldn't say that SYS uses annoying or weird chunk combinations, because it's to help the student see the different combinations of spelling, not reading.   

 

But reading and spelling aren't two unrelated things :confused1: , but rather are complementary processes, like addition and subtraction.  They are completely interrelated: spelling is encoding sounds into written words, and reading is decoding those written words to turn them back into sounds.  They use the *same set* of sounds and phonograms - there is no such thing as a combination that only exists for spelling while it doesn't exist for reading. 

 

I really like SYS, don't get me wrong - I think their color-coded chunking method of analyzing words is awesome, and it was more than worth the $50 I paid to learn that.  And the open-and-go factor can't be beat :thumbup: - it was a huge help to not have to do anything to prep but open the book and get started - I really needed that earlier this year, and if I need it again, I'd happily turn to further levels of SYS. 

 

But some of their listed vowel chunks aren't actually vowel chunks by SYS's own definition - "two vowels that usually make one sound in a word" - because they pretty much *never* make one sound (at least there are no examples in the 17,000 word Hanna list - I wouldn't even know what single sound(s) to assign to them :confused1: ), but always have two separate sounds (such as "io" in "radio").  And some of the consonant chunks simply do not exist in reality - no words are spelled with them - those letters just don't appear doubled in English (such as "hh" or "vv" or "ww" - maybe there's some obscure word out there somewhere, but again, there's nothing in the 17,000 word Hanna list). 

 

It's not the end of the world to have them in there, because they just aren't going to be used ever (because for all intents and purposes there are no English words spelled like that, and it wouldn't surprise me to learn that there are *no* English words spelled like that), but honestly, there are enough real vowel and consonant chunks in the English language to sort through without adding in ones that are logically consistent but don't actually *exist* in the real world.  (I do understand why they probably did it - it does make for a very neat, logical pattern.  They paired every vowel with every other vowel (plus with "w" and "y" as needed), so you have "aa ae ai ao au aw ay" and "ia ie ii io iu"; and they doubled just about all of the single consonants (so you have "bb cc dd ff gg hh kk ll" and so on to "zz").  It's extremely logical and ensures that you don't miss any real chunk, and it does make for a nice, clean chart layout.  But it also obscures the real structure of the English language, giving a nice shiny logical-but-shallow view instead.  I don't find the trade-off worth it, and so I made my own charts to use instead, but ymmv.)

[Butter]

Also love it just started but its clear its perfect of my Visual Spatial Learner.   You could do your own I like having the open and go but I would skip the teacher handbook.

 

I don't think this is good advice.  The teacher's book is cheap and makes it infinitely easier for it to be open and go.  It gives you the answers for the chunking.  Some of the weeks are easy, like when they are just doing endings.  Some of them are definitely not, especially when they are adding more and more at once.  One of my kids is in level B and the teacher's guide has all his dictated words.  It's the only place they are found.

 

For those of you who use SUS, how do you handle cursive? SUS says the work should only be done in print, so what school work does your kid do in cursive?

 

They do everything else in cursive.

[vaquitita]

Nm

Edited December 12, 2015 by vaquitita

[vaquitita]

Nm

Edited December 12, 2015 by vaquitita

[Chelli]

I went from SUS to Dictation Day by Day and I'm so glad I did. The sentences in Day by Day naturally spiral so previous words and spelling patterns are reviewed.

 

I write the Day by Day sentences on the white board, my dd copies it down leaving a space between each line. She marks vowel teams, phonograms, silent e, rule breakers, etc. Then we talk about each word using the phonics we learned in Logic of English. The next day she looks over her sentences from the day before making note of any tricky spellings and punctuation, then I dictate the passage and she writes it. If she gets everything correct, we move on and do the next passage the next day. If she misses anything, we talk about why she missed it and the next day, I dictate the passage to her again. We follow this pattern until she gets it correct with no mistakes in spelling or punctuation. Now that we're starting grammar, I'm also using her sentences to work on parts of speech.

[AnniePoo]

What does your child think about copying the same passage every day?

 

She doesn't mind, but this is my artsy girl who has hated every other spelling program we tried.  She picked it out herself because she loves American history.  My son, who is more type-A, would detest it.  

 

 

As for the cursive suggestion, you could always just copy it in cursive in a notebook.  The instructor guide says not to use cursive, but I give you permission to.

[forty-two]

My dd picked out Wild Tales because she liked animals :).

 

 

WRT cursive - honestly, I plan on ignoring that once dd9 is comfortable with cursive, or at least I'm definitely going to do everything else in cursive, including WWE copywork/dictation (which for us includes SYS analysis).  I'm not sure I find SYS's reasoning wrt printing-only to be compelling, at least given our situation. 

 

As stated, "Copywork should be printed in order to develop visual memory.  When students read, everything they see is in print, so they should use printing while learning to spell."  IOW, as I understand it, reading the word in print and writing the word in print each contributes to developing a visual memory of the word.  As I understand it, SYS starts by teaching spelling-by-sound and then (once that idea is internalized), layers on spelling-by-sight (and later adds the spelling-by-meaning layer), and the print-only thing is part of teaching spelling-by-sight. 

 

Thing is, for us, dd9's visual memory for the overall appearance of printed words is excellent; it's her ability to break the whole word into parts that's terrible.  It's why her spelling is so horrible (but it's improving :phew:) but her reading is excellent - she can recognize words as wholes but she doesn't know the parts well enough to reproduce them (and she can't apply her phonics knowledge to spell by sound because she she can't break spoken words into phonemes or syllables, either).  But once she works through a word a few times, analyzing the phonograms and word parts - which forces her to *see* them and how they are related to the sounds she hears - then she has no trouble remembering which spelling was used to spell a given sound in a given word (and it improves her ability to break the word down orally). 

 

Which is to say I'm far more concerned about developing her ability to spell by sound (and by meaning) than I am her spelling by sight, because that's by far her strength - once she finally *sees* the word parts, she easily adds those details to her mental picture of the word.  (And it's why I like SYS's color-coded chunking system - she likes it and it forces her to see the parts.)

 

Your ds sounds different, given the spelling mistakes you posted.  Just about everything he wrote was very phonetic - he just didn't remember which of several phonetically correct phonograms was the actual one used.  And that seems to be a matter of rules and/or visual memory (where SYS focuses solely on the visual memory aspect), in which case it might be helpful to have every visual memory boost he can get.

[vaquitita]

Your ds sounds different, given the spelling mistakes you posted. Just about everything he wrote was very phonetic - he just didn't remember which of several phonetically correct phonograms was the actual one used. And that seems to be a matter of rules and/or visual memory (where SYS focuses solely on the visual memory aspect), in which case it might be helpful to have every visual memory boost he can get.

Sometimes I think the rules in AAS have just confused him. There are lots of words that we haven't gotten to in AAS yet that he spells correctly, just based on seeing them in his reading. Harder words than ones that we have covered, but he gets wrong. It's like he thinks hey there's a rule for this, but I don't, or won't, remember it, let me just throw a vowel team in here. He is a visual learner. The other day he wanted to know how to spell timing, so he wrote both timeing and timing down to see which looked right, and he picked timing. So I'm thinking SYS will be a good fit for him.

[vaquitita]

I went from SUS to Dictation Day by Day and I'm so glad I did. The sentences in Day by Day naturally spiral so previous words and spelling patterns are reviewed.

Would you please elaborate on this? What is it you prefer about DDBD?

[forty-two]

Sometimes I think the rules in AAS have just confused him. There are lots of words that we haven't gotten to in AAS yet that he spells correctly, just based on seeing them in his reading. Harder words than ones that we have covered, but he gets wrong. It's like he thinks hey there's a rule for this, but I don't, or won't, remember it, let me just throw a vowel team in here. He is a visual learner. The other day he wanted to know how to spell timing, so he wrote both timeing and timing down to see which looked right, and he picked timing. So I'm thinking SYS will be a good fit for him.

 

I'm a visual "does it look right" speller, and while I loved phonograms and spelling by sound as soon as I learned them, I've only *just* started understanding spelling rules for choosing between phonograms.  It took copying down each and every spelling in The ABCs and All Their Tricks, in prep for making a spelling-to-sound chart (to match my sound-to-spelling chart), for me to start noticing and appreciating the patterns that underlie "the rules", which made them more than rote things to memorize and blindly apply (that (incomprehending) view of "the rules" is why I'd been teaching reading and spelling phonetically but without rules - maybe now that I get them I'll start incorporating them).

[Chelli]

Would you please elaborate on this? What is it you prefer about DDBD?

 

1) DDBD is free.

 

2) Spelling You See doesn't have the built in review of words. It might review vowel teams, consonant teams, etc, but not specific words that give her trouble. DDBD does.

 

3) There is no instruction on what to do if they miss words on the dictation day in Spelling You See. On third or fourth week of doing the program, Sophia missed about 8 words on the last day where I dictate the passage, but there is nothing in the program about what to do in that situation. Should we redo the week? Move on? If I move on, I know those words aren't coming around again. Is there a certain amount of words they can miss and still move on and at what point do they miss too many words to move on? It was just too vague on details.

 

4) She was able to memorize what needed to be colored each day so it became mindless and not really learning. The format of the passages that are to be colored are the same in Spelling You See so Sophia was able after a day or two of coloring was able to remember the pattern of what should be colored and just do it without really paying attention to the words at all. DDBD moves more quickly the way I use it (copy and mark one day, test the next) so she really has to examine each passage because it's constantly changing.

 

5) I could tell after 6 weeks of using Spelling You See that for the above reasons, it was not going to be very effective in teaching Sophia how to actually spell. Great for copywork, but that's about it. DDBD really makes her think about how to spell.

[forty-two]

3) There is no instruction on what to do if they miss words on the dictation day in Spelling You See. On third or fourth week of doing the program, Sophia missed about 8 words on the last day where I dictate the passage, but there is nothing in the program about what to do in that situation. Should we redo the week? Move on? If I move on, I know those words aren't coming around again. Is there a certain amount of words they can miss and still move on and at what point do they miss too many words to move on? It was just too vague on details.

 

Not that this changes whether the program would have worked for you, but they do tell you what to do: stop the dictation every time they misspell a word, right as they misspell it, and help them spell it correctly right then.  Stop the dictation at the 10 min mark (which includes the time you spent helping them fix misspellings), however far you've gotten.  And then keep going in the program, and eventually, through the continued practice, they will get more and more of the dictation done in 10 minutes.  The focus is on getting whatever words you get to in the dictation correct, with help as needed, not on getting through the entire dictation. 

 

(I have Wild Tales, and I found this info under "Dictation" in the weekly activity guide for lessons 8-36 section of the instructor guide; it was right before the FAQ.  It was repeated in abbreviated form, with a pointer to the above "more important information about dictation," in the guide to lesson 1.  The instructor guide definitely packs a lot of info into a small amount of words and space - I missed a lot of specifics when I skimmed through it the first time.)

[Chelli]

It was the lack of doing anything with the words they missed that bothered me. So if I help her spell eight words, how does she learn to spell them? Since there is no built in review of words, she won't see some of them again at all. The program seemed to be missing some kind of step in there to make it really effective. It just didn't work here at all.

[lorisuewho]

I went from SUS to Dictation Day by Day and I'm so glad I did. The sentences in Day by Day naturally spiral so previous words and spelling patterns are reviewed.

 

I write the Day by Day sentences on the white board, my dd copies it down leaving a space between each line. She marks vowel teams, phonograms, silent e, rule breakers, etc. Then we talk about each word using the phonics we learned in Logic of English. The next day she looks over her sentences from the day before making note of any tricky spellings and punctuation, then I dictate the passage and she writes it. If she gets everything correct, we move on and do the next passage the next day. If she misses anything, we talk about why she missed it and the next day, I dictate the passage to her again. We follow this pattern until she gets it correct with no mistakes in spelling or punctuation. Now that we're starting grammar, I'm also using her sentences to work on parts of speech.

 

This is what I do.  We have done spelling this way ever since finishing the Logic of English, so we are on our third year with Dictation Day by Day.  I'm very pleased with my boys' spelling progress.

[vaquitita]

How do you determine placement in DDBD? Do you just use it at grade level?

[vaquitita]

Nm

Edited December 12, 2015 by vaquitita

[Guest]

bumping old thread because I would also like to know the answer to how to place in DDBD

[Chelli]

I just placed my daughter at grade level. It seems right so far.

[Sarah0000]

We did a couple of the SYS samples, and we both liked the approach. DS did find it tedious to copy the same passage every day, even though it wasn't the same sentence, it was still the same topic. We also found that the spelling words were too easy, but going up a level was too much handwriting.

 

What we do now instead is use our memory work poem (I'm pulling from FLL), use highlighters to highlight one type of thing a day, use the ABCs and All Their Tricks for a couple of spelling words that use that same chunk, and use different words and chunks each day for a couple weeks. Handwriting is separate which works well since he's learning cursive.