just turned 7 - letter reversals - what is normal?

[EmilyGF]

My newly-7-year-old reverses letters. A. Lot. She can't remember which numbers face which way in math unless I write them on a paper for her to look at. She has always tracked naturally right to left and had to practice a lot to learn to track left to right. She is a lefty.

 

She is a great reader. Once she was taught, she took off. She reads the Little House series for fun. She reads picture books aloud to her 3-year-old brother. She loves to write (just with a lot of reversals). She writes quite phonetically (she includes vowels in all words, but spells just about everything wrong). For example, she wrote me a note: "To momy, frum her boter" (To Mommy, from her daughter.)

 

Is this in the normal range? I regret the time I poured into my older son in early spelling lessons and now believe in spelling beginning in 3rd grade. However, her spelling seems more labored and her reversals more frequent than her siblings... but she reads quite well (though she had a hard time sounding out "associates" this morning - but that seems normal, too).

 

What do you think? Does she need more intervention? Is this in the range of normal? She turned 7 last week.

Emily

[EmilyGF]

Evening people?

 

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[wapiti]

IIRC, the rule of thumb is 8 y.o., so hopefully things will sort themselves out.  In any event, I always recommend getting an annual vision checkup with a covd optometrist, who can screen a bit for developmental vision issues while they're at it.  Cursive can also help, at least for the letters.

 

You might also find this post interesting from the LC board:

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/549531-number-and-letter-reversals-how-can-i-help/?p=6315904

There are a few other posts in a similar vein if you do a search.  I think it's fascinating.

 

[kateingr]

My son regularly reversed numbers and letters until he was eight...and still does occasionally. I actually just wrote a post about it (see my sig), but my general feeling is that reversals and phonetic spelling for a new seven year old are pretty typical. My only concern for my son was that the longer he did it, the harder it might be for him to get out of the habit, so I did AAS and watched him like a hawk to remind him to fix his letters if he started to reverse them. It also helped a lot for him to have an alphabet and number chart on the wall in front of his desk so he could easily check...not that he always did!

 

Your daughter's spelling sample also seems very age-appropriate. She's got all the phonemes in there, which is a great sign for a new seven year old. It sounds like she's perhaps just not a very strong visual learner (in that her brain isn't using her visual memory to learn spelling but using logic instead)? I think you're probably fine if you want to delay spelling a bit yet, but you might want to take that into account when you choose a spelling program for her. She might thrive with something very rule-based, like AAS.

[wapiti]

 It sounds like she's perhaps just not a very strong visual learner (in that her brain isn't using her visual memory to learn spelling but using logic instead)? I think you're probably fine if you want to delay spelling a bit yet, but you might want to take that into account when you choose a spelling program for her. She might thrive with something very rule-based, like AAS.

 

FWIW, having a weakness in the vision system (such as with visual memory) doesn't affect whether a person has sequential learning preferences or visual-spatial learning preferences except by default, when the weakness causes the vision input path to be too inefficient by comparison.  ETA, I'm trying to say that I don't think a vision weakness necessarily points toward using a sequential, rule-based curriculum.  OTOH, at the same time, I always say teach through strengths rather than weaknesses, so really I'm not making any sense at all, except that I think it's important to distinguish between input format being auditory or visual and organization format being sequential or spatial.

 

(Coincidentally, the first time my ds12 had the full developmental vision eval several years ago, he had a weakness on the visual memory test, with a score far below what was expected for age.  He has extremely strong visual-spatial learning skills, the "most VSL" of my kids.  He's also a lefty; my two lefties have bigger VSL strengths than my four right-handers.  My second-biggest VSL, the other lefty, had enough vision weaknesses to need VT.  They both do best with programs that emphasize context/big-picture first.  However, I haven't taught spelling, at least not outside of visualization tricks, so I have no clue about curricula)

[waa510]

My 6 yr old (who'll be 7 in early Nov) still reverses b and d and will write 3, 5 or 9 wrong on occasion. I've also heard that 8 yrs old is where you may begin to be concerned. Older dd had reversals that disappeared around 8-ish so I'm hoping little dd's fade too.

[Butter]

It's normal.  Does she notice that the letters are backwards?  If not, just gently remind her every time.

 

FWIW, my 7 year old (turned 7 in June) reverses letters on occasion.  He is not a lefty.  He usually will tell me he wrote it backwards on accident.  I have no concerns about language-based learning disabilities in him.  His older brother is dyslexic and dysgraphic.

 

The spelling is also totally normal.  I'm not sure having trouble sounding out associates at her age is normal, however.  I think not being able to figure that word out at all would be normal!

[EmilyGF]

Thanks for the input. Since I have a sample size of two, it is hard to tell what is within normal.

 

Emily

[RootAnn]

Well, in my experience, reversals are common at least to 8. My dd#2 kept doing some of them until around 10. (I taught her cursive first and she would write in mirror-image cursive without realizing it.) My earliest fluent reader (dd#3) is the only one of my kids who didn't reverse letters & numbers past 8. With gentle nudging, it eventually stops.

 

DS#1 now recognizes the occasional reversal & fixes it himself. That's usually the next step to no longer doing them.

[mathnerd]

I am not sure what is normal or not, but the "d" and "b" reversals were there for my DS earlier on. Switching to cursive might stop the reversals. So, it might be worth your time to start cursive if the reversals are an issue for you.

 

I highly recommend this video of the Frog spelling "bed" in Word World. It teaches how not to reverse "d" and "b" in a fun way with a catchy song. When my DS was still printing letters, he learned the song in this video that goes "line and circle is the letter b" and I asked him to stop and sing those words to himself every time he was confused by "b" and "d" and he corrected himself in a couple of week.

 

PBS video of "b" and "d" recognition:

http://pbskids.org/video/?category=WordWorld&pid=nvB_jzLBsxLWh2s08ZPWHsT__l_FwJxm

 

[zarabellesmom]

My oldest still reverses the letter j on occasion.  She's 10.  ;)

 

My youngest just turned 7 late August. She still has quite a few reversals. She's not as strong a reader as your daughter and her spelling isn't great. We just started working on spelling this year with Apples and Pears. But, she's 7.  I wouldn't expect her spelling to be anything other than atrocious considering we've never done anything with it. When she reverses a letter, I just have her erase and correct it.  We don't make a big deal out of it. I do try to make sure she is making the letters correctly as I believe this helps. The motions for making a d are very different than those for making a b and if she doesn't make the letter correctly, we stop and practice writing 5 or so on a piece of scratch paper before going on. Is it tedious to sit over her and watch her every time she writes? Yep. But I'm hoping that my attentiveness will help reduce her reversals before she's ten like my oldest. 

[EmilyGF]

My daughter reverses in both cursive and print. I taught cursive first. It didn't work.

 

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[redsquirrel]

Normal, normal, normal.

 

Today was my 10 yr old's first day of math since June.  The very first thing he did was reverse his 9 :001_rolleyes:  And right after that he told me he forgot what multiplication was...only to suddenly have it all come back to him in a flash!  Something about my glare that seemed to help him rediscover it. 

 

But really, don't worry. Just say something like "hmmmm...what is that?" or 'did you really mean to write 'ded', or do you mean 'bed'? How can you fix that?" 

 

And I remember being in 6th or 7th grade and being terrified of being called up to write on the board. I was convinced I would get so nervous that I would reverse a 'b' or a 'd' and look like an idiot.

[MerryAtHope]

This can be normal for a 7 yo, but you can also do some things to help. This article on reversals has tactile ideas, activities using large arm movements, and analogies that can help.

[greyseal]

I'm not sure how much this adds to the discussion, but my oldest DD (7 last year) reversed a lot of letters in K, and when I brought her home in 1st, we switched to cursive. That fixed the letter reversals, but she still fairly regularly reverses numbers. I asked my good friend, a 2nd grade teacher, if this was normal and she laughed and exclaimed, "Yes!" So, she's had years of 2nd graders in ps who do it, so I think it probably has to be normal. As others have suggested, I just gently point out the reversal and ask her to fix it.

[Kylie]

My son (almost 7) reverses a lot. b and d. p, and q. Even b and p sometimes. m and w. He mixes up 2 and 5. He also writes his 7s backward about 50% of the time. He knows what they are and he knows the sound or value so I'm not worried. I don't know many 15 year olds that don't know their b from d. 

 

Phonics Road to Spelling and Reading helped a bit because they make sure that you teach how to write the letter correctly. When you write a d you draw the hump first and then the line and with b you draw the line first and the hump after. Usually it helps my son for me to say hump or line first? It's frustrating to repeat a thousand times but when I tried the "make a bed with your hands" he gets very irritated for whatever reason. Ugh.