RELAXED Logic and Worldview 7-12 Sequence?

[SnMomof7]

Can you help me think through a RELAXED logic and worldview program (faith based) for 7-12? I'd like to tackle a book or course every year that would only take a lesson 1-2x/week. Independent reading followed by oral discussion would likely work best.

 

I'm toying with the idea of alternating logic and worldview resources. I have a tendency to over schedule, so I want to keep things light and doable.

 

We are currently in 7th and underway with Fallacy Detective. So far, so good.

 

7: Fallacy Detective (current)

8: How to Be Your Own Selfish Pig (Can anyone give me an idea of workload? Is this long enough for one year at once a week?)

9: ? Is The Thinking Toolbox worth doing?

10: The Deadliest Monster? It's supposed to be good?

11: Traditional Logic? How long does this take to finish? Could we do it 1-2x/week? I don't want any 5x/week programs.

12: How Now Shall We Live (? I already have this one, I could get the study guide to make it meatier?)

 

Any thoughts are appreciated, particularly in regard to the appropriateness of titles that would work for a relaxed pace.

[thowell]

I dont have any advice but would love to do this too! I was just asking about logic on the HS board but no response. This is exactly what I would like to do. I have dd14 who has done Fallacy Detective and dd12 who hasn't started any logic yet. I will definitely be watching this.

 

 

[sassenach]

:lurk5:

[SeekingHim77]

Check out Ambleside Online's schedule. They assign at least one logic/worldview book per year from 7th grade up. I know that they recommend everything you mentioned except for Traditional Logic. You could just use their schedule for worldview/logic and ignore the rest. I may do this with my daughter. We are reading the Fallacy Detective this year.

[thowell]

Ok here is what I see from there site. Combining, Parts in the Bible and Theology section, Logic and Worldview; Opinions????

 

7^th -        The Fallacy Detective, by Nathaniel Bluedorn and Hans Bluedorn

               How To Read a Book, by Mortimer Adler and Chares Van Doren

   How to Be Your Own Selfish Pig, by Susan Schaeffer Macaulay – Also says it is under review for year 7. This does seem a bit young to me for this book.

 

8^th              How To Read a Book, by Mortimer Adler and Chares Van Doren

               A Ready Defense: The Best of Josh McDowell ($), OR The Case for Christ, by Lee Strobel

9^th          Christian Life, by Sinclair Ferguson

               Love is a Fallacy, byMax Schulman

10^th         Knowing God, by J. I. Packer

                How to Read Slowly, by James Sire

Worldview

** The Deadliest Monster, by Jeff Baldwin
*** How Should We Then Live?, by Francis Schaeffer

Under review: * Thinking Like A Christian

11^th      Worldview

* Seven Men Who Rule the World from the Grave, by David Breese

** Amusing Ourselves to Death, by Neil Postman
*** Modern Fascism: Liquidating the Judeo-Christian Worldview, by Gene Edward Veith

The Thinking Toolbox: Thirty-Five Lessons That Will Build Your Reasoning Skills, by Nathaniel and Hans Bluedorn

 

12^th      The Upside of Irrationality, by Dan Ariely (optional; the Advisory has not previewed this yet)

 

[Classical Katharine]

For easy logic/as little teacher time as possible, if that's part of your goal, I think your choice of Fallacy Detective to begin with is a good one, since it covers informal, rather than symbolic, logic, and does so with clear and simple examples. But logic comes in "informal" and "formal" (a.k.a. "symbolic").

 

If you want to keep things manageable for you in logic overall, I think you have three basic choices. This turned out long, so I'll just list them first. You can:

 

--Stick with informal logic; or

--Do a book that normally takes one year over two years instead, plus maybe start it a year later than usual; or

--Assign a book to a special twelfth-grader as a self-study project.

 

 

___________

 

--One is to stick with informal logic and never touch symbolic logic at all.

 

Symbolic logic really isn't any harder than math, but many people find it requires more of a mental change of gears than informal logic does. But then you'd miss out on the benefits of symbolic logic, which is especially valuable to any child who might go on to computer science, law, the pastorate, cultural leadership through writing (or as a homeschooling Mom!), or any other calling requiring clear thinking. But this is certainly an option to keep it relaxed.

 

___________

 

If you do want to cover some symbolic logic too, yet keep your involvement limited, then I think you have a couple of options. One is, you could:

 

--Do a book that normally takes one year over two years instead, plus maybe start it a year later than it's usually taught

 

I'm pretty familiar with one logic book, so I'll use it as a scheduling example. (It's my husband's--it starts with symbolic and ends with informal--Logic I: Tools for Thinking).

 

While it works well in eighth grade with one teaching session a week--co-ops have done that--and can be completed in a year, for that to work, the teacher/Mom does need to become familiar with the book herself and be available to grade homework and answer questions. (She doesn't need to have a logic background, but the children will need her help.) And the children are involved not just during the one teaching session, but doing homework as well. Parental involvement goes with the territory when symbolic logic is taught at that age, no matter what book you choose.

 

So, to keep it doable for you, you could do such a book over two years--in grades 9 and 10, say--instead of dong the whole book in grade 8 (let alone starting it in 7). Your children will be readier and so it will be easier for you to help them understand. But you would still need to count on learning the material yourself along with your children.

 

___________

 

As an alternative, if that is more than you want to do, you could:

 

--Assign a book to a special twelfth-grader as a self-study project.

 

You could try using a book that assumes no prior knowledge of logic on the part of the student OR the teacher, assign it to your kids in grade 12, and have them self-teach. I'd only feel comfortable trying that with a child who is a good reader, organized, motivated, responsible about assignments, and not scared of math (also symbolic). However, there is still a chance that you'll need to be more involved, if questions arise. They will come to you, because you're omniscient, right? But--I'm not looking at your kids' ages right now--by then maybe all your children are older and so the littles are not needing you as much, and you at that time might be able to join your oldest child in that logic adventure, after all.

 

Much as I am a fan of logic, for boys and girls, most of us didn't get ANY in school--I had a few weeks maybe in grade 8, I think--so if you get to it at all, you are ahead of the curve and your children will benefit.

 

I hope this helps!

[Classical Katharine]

Also, there are some classic and valuable books on that Ambleside list. Thanks for collecting it, thowell.

[Penelope]

Have you read the Selfish Pig book? I didn't care for it much. It's very dated, for one thing. I just have a feeling there must be a much better book than this, somewhere, to discuss the same issues. And I don't think it is long enough for a whole year.

 

I have Traditional Logic slated for this year (eighth) and expect it to take all year. We did the first two lessons last month. It is slated at five times per week for a one semester course, but the assignments are very short. I am planning for twice per week and using the DVD. Obviously I don't know how that will work out yet. But I would think for an eleventh grader, it would be easily doable in a year.

[Classical Katharine]

 It is slated at five times per week for a one semester course, but the assignments are very short. I am planning for twice per week and using the DVD.

 

Exactly! I was just coming back to say--nothing ever HAS to be done five days a week. A program may say five days a week at such-and-such an age in order to complete the program in so much time. For an elective, there's no harm to making something two or three days a week instead and taking longer to do it. Only when you get to trying to do a connected subject like symbolic logic only once every week or two, with no contact with the topic in between even in the form of homework, will you have kids just plain forgetting everything in between and making the whole exercise fruitless.

 

[Penelope]

 

 

I have Traditional Logic slated for this year (eighth) and expect it to take all year. We did the first two lessons last month. It is slated at five times per week for a one semester course, but the assignments are very short. I am planning for twice per week and using the DVD. Obviously I don't know how that will work out yet. But I would think for an eleventh grader, it would be easily doable in a year.

I forgot to say that I was talking about Traditional Logic 1. My expectation is that we will cover course 2 in ninth grade. I didn't know if you were talking about doing both courses in one year. I think that is doable, but it would definitely require more time than once per week.

[SeekingHim77]

Have you read the Selfish Pig book? I didn't care for it much. It's very dated, for one thing. I just have a feeling there must be a much better book than this, somewhere, to discuss the same issues. And I don't think it is long enough for a whole year.

 

 

I've read it. I actually like it very much. However, I wouldn't hand it to my 7th grade daughter as Ambleside recommends. I would save it for late high school.

[ScoutTN]

Anything by Francis Shaeffer is meaty, by definition! True Spirituality is a good book to start with.

 

For high school apologetics, I would skip Josh McDowell type books and go for things that are written at a layman's level by real scholars.

 

Bruce Metzger on the text of the New Testament and textual criticism generally.

F.F. Bruce on the canon.

Richard Pratt's Every Thought Captive for presuppositional apologetics - a must!

R.C. Sproul for classical apologetics.

Tim Keller's The Reason for God - a pastor not a scholar, but a valuable book that addresses our culture well

Also some basic introduction to cults and how to recognize one.

 

Other solid reads in Christian apologetics and doctrine for high school kids (and their parents!) with lots of discussion:

 

Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis

Orthodoxy by G. K. Chesterton - a harder read, but excellent!

Knowing God by J.I. Packer

anything by Peter Kreeft

anything by Ravi Zacharias - not a scholar, but an excellent evangelist with a sharp mind!

 

 

Students going to university should be able to read all of these. Not light content, but with just reading (not too fast) and only discussion (lots) as output, relaxed in terms of not adding any busywork to your schedule. Add some writing if that helps your student to process and grow in his understanding.

 

Also, consider watching or listening to some university or seminary level apologetics courses. There are fabulous ones available for free! Check your denomination's graduate program or schools like Wheaton, Grove City College, Moody, Dallas seminary, Southern Seminary, Westminster seminary etc.

 

Many popular evangelical books and speakers are unfortunately lightweights intellectually and you may have to go beyond what RR or your local bookstore offer to find really good apologetics materials.

[Another Lynn]

Do you all think CAP's series could be done "gently"?  (Art of Argument, Argument Builder, and Discovery of Deduction)

[SnMomof7]

Thank you all for your thoughts. This is all very helpful to me. I

[Momto6inIN]

Do you all think CAP's series could be done "gently"?  (Art of Argument, Argument Builder, and Discovery of Deduction)

 

Yes!

 

When my 9th grader did Art of Argument and Argument Builder he didn't do most of the writing assignments, he just read and we discussed the questions. We had some really great and meaningful discussions, and doing it slowly meant I didn't have as much reading to do ahead of time to be able to lead a discussion with him.

 

As far as for worldview, he's reading A Young Man After God's Own Heart and Mere Christianity and Do Hard Things and Good Ideas from Questionable Christians and Outright Pagans. When he gets to be a senior I'm thinking about him doing Summit Ministries Understanding the Times for an Intro to Philosophy credit.

[Kendall]

The Deadliest Monster.  I think my sons recommend the first chapter or two.  Really good, but the rest of the book doesn't say much more.  That is what I remember them saying.   The book is ideal after having read Frankenstein and Dr. Jekyll and Mr.Hyde. 

[tjlcc]

I have How To Be Own Selfish Pig if you want to pre-read it.  We won't be using it yet.  It is short enough to do 1x a week, but make sure you are ready to discuss mature content.

 

We are also using Fallacy Detective for 7th, along with More Than a Carpenter by McDowell.

 

I am currently reading How To Read a Book for my own benefit.

 

Have you seen Philosophy Adventure?

[SnMomof7]

I have How To Be Own Selfish Pig if you want to pre-read it. We won't be using it yet. It is short enough to do 1x a week, but make sure you are ready to discuss mature content.

 

We are also using Fallacy Detective for 7th, along with More Than a Carpenter by McDowell.

 

I am currently reading How To Read a Book for my own benefit.

 

Have you seen Philosophy Adventure?

I'd love to preview How to Be before buying it, thanks. Hopefully this fall we will get out more - our big van is having a huge round of work done right now. When do you think you'll be trying it? How are you finding How To Read a Book? I think I have a copy here somewhere....

 

Hmmm, Philosophy Adventure looks interesting. Early rhetoric?

[tjlcc]

I'd love to preview How to Be before buying it, thanks. Hopefully this fall we will get out more - our big van is having a huge round of work done right now. When do you think you'll be trying it? How are you finding How To Read a Book? I think I have a copy here somewhere....

 

Hmmm, Philosophy Adventure looks interesting. Early rhetoric?

 

I think we'll save How to Be for at least Year 8 or 9.

 

I'm reading How To Read a Book very slowly.  It is not a slog, but for me to retain anything important, I must take my time.  Learning about the different stages of reading, and how to skim a book, and the importance of the table of contents.  I'm still in part 1, just a few chapters in.  I will only have students read a little bit each year, as Ambleside recommends.  Will probably introduce it in Year 7 or 8.

 

I'm thinking of Philosophy Adventure for Year 9 or 10 depending on student.

 

Enjoy the rest of your summer! :)